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Lemmy.ml is still focused on FOSS and Privacy, Lemmygrad.ml is focused on Marxism-Leninism. As such, there are plenty of non-MLs on Lemmy.ml, including Anarchist communities, while this is banned on Lemmygrad.ml.
Very different instances, I wouldn't call Lemmygrad.ml "mask off" Lemmy.ml.
Except lemmygrad users are realizing we all blocked their instance and are becoming more active in lemmy.ml to try and evade this, and so yeah, .ml is getting more and more like Lemmygrad
Can't wait for this to become a systemic issue with Lemmy. Why does everything have to be ruined by tankies and conservatives? They know that nobody wants to talk to them, but they will evade and disrespect the rules just to make other people miserable.
What a sad hobby.
Tbh, I'm not super worried, theres already been defederation with Hexbear and Lemmygrad. As they infect tanky safezones and cause more defederations because of it, non tankie specific federations are going to start becoming specifically anti Tankie in response. I mean, look at my comment calling them brain damaged, it hasnt been civility removed yet, which I feel is a good sign. So while they can always create new accounts on non Tankie federations, over time they are going to start having to hide their more violent revolution and dictator loving sides, which tbh, at that point I'll tolerate their presence.
Edit: It's kind of ironic how in a post where I called other people brain damaged, I wrote it like I was having a stroke. I've edited it to make it flow faaaaarrr better
This is the part I find hilarious. MLs think the reason people don't like their outdated brand of communism is because they are brainwashed. The reality is that people don't like their outdated brand of communism because tankies are insufferable, know-it-all autocrats who refuse to engage with any modern formulation of Marxist theory.
If MLs would be more academically engaged with contemporary political science, people would like their messaging much more. Of course then they'd probably realize that Lenin and Mao were just giant assholes, so I guess it's a bit of a paradox.
They don't want to engage because communism is just a facade for them to spread CCP and Kremlin propaganda. They're not actually communists.
I mean, their messaging IS shit, but I think one of the biggest flaws that cant be overcome even if they started acting less insufferably is that they are ok with and will defend tooth and nail any dictator that says they are communist. I do not for one second believe that Xi or Putin has ANY intention of furthering LGBTQ politics for instance. Tankies whole ideology isnt thought through and HEAVILY conflicting
There's a joke (or possibly simple wisdom) about a bar that's worth discussing here.
Is it similar to the story about a table, but for the other side of the aisle?
I don't know the story about a table. Which is surprising, because I grew up in a bright red community where delivering pithy metaphors about the futility of breaking bread with the opposition was sport. (For the record, I wouldn't break bread with Nazis.)
Its "If a table of 9 lets 1 Nazi sit at that table, it's a table of 10 Nazi's" or something like that
Oh, no, it's exactly that. "If you let one Nazi into the bar, congrats you have a Nazi bar."
Tankies are reactionaries.
Literally, the Bolsheviks were the reactionaries that suppressed and appropriated the Russian revolution, and said they were doing it at the time. 'M-L' is stalinism.
They're just red star brand conservative reactionaries.
This is just a very braindead take. Not all types of authoritarian mindset are reactionary. Red fascism is an absurd take which was originated by CIA propaganda in the 50s.
Your critique of authoritarian states, does not make them equal. That is a centerist take that smells like a moral jerk off ritual.
not all authoritarianism
Could argue that, and if you brought up Cuba I might lose, but it's not the argument here.
Tankies, for historical reasons, with their Russia fetish, are reactionary. They fetishize a group of shitty reactionaries who killed all the communists (auth and otherwise). The origin of why we call them 'tankies' is a second wave of them being reactionaries who murdered all the communists.
It's really clear at many levels.
Believe it or not, in the age those tankies lived, shit wasn't easy. Trying to sabotage every meaningful conversation by hur dur tanky stuff is rather more braindead than being a conservative. Political change is messy, violent and fucked up in nature. Tankies committed atrocities and also provided some great shit to people who had nothing, like free healthcare and education, abortion rights and in 2 decades became an industrial nation.
Did they did a lot of wrongs? Yeah. Should we learn from them, yeah, did they also delivered, well they delivered, although with great price.
I'm typing this from a country so fucked up economically and politically, that you westerners won't understand. But trying to magnify and dilute the conversation with weird moral optics does not make lives of us 3rd worlders easier. You want to ride your moral high horse while every political inaction will stump hundreds in a minute.
They betrayed and stole the revolution, almost every other group involved would have done better.
In not shitting on them for being messy. I'm shitting on them for killing all the communists.
Tell that to the citizens of Tambov and Kronstadt sailors in the 1920s.
Why does everything have to be ruined by tankies and conservatives?
A lot of them are shills/bots. The Kremlin (maybe also the CCP, not sure) is supporting a bunch of political extremes, whether they agree with them or not.
Divide and conquer in a digital age.
Think of shitty kids who like to wreck everything they touch. Whenever they try to make their own clubhouse, it usually doesn't last long because they wind up wrecking it themselves. And while they like to wreck things, they don't actually like living in a wrecked clubhouse. They want to be able to wreck things and laugh as others suffer from their damage and have to fix it. So they invade other clubhouses because their own is always a fucking mess.
Have any Conservative instances been de-federated, or are there any? I've noticed a HUGE influx of 'Men's Rights' misogynists, wondering if they came from that happening.
It's not a hobby, they're paid by the CCP/Kremlin.
Both can be true at the same time
Nah. Gig economy. Know anyone who can keep their shit down to one job these days?
It's probably not, I think a lot of tankies are true believers (nobody pays for sponsored content in pillow talk. Yet. Yes ive made bad decisions.) but it could be.
No they do it for free. These aren't paid assets they're angsty disaffected teens.
Some are useful idiots, the core is paid shills. I'd be surprised if they're not also starting to use LLMs.
If they don't get talking points directly from a trollfarm, someone influential over there watches a lot of Russian propaganda.
On the other hand, they do love yelling at libs to stop supporting the Gaza genocide, so I like them until they also start bitching about fighting a fascist invasion.
Pick your goddamn lane
They want to amplify the atrocities Israel is committing in Gaza because it increases the probability Trump gets elected, which would be a huge win for the Kremlin.
I'd guess there's backroom deal making with Iran as well given the political dynamics there.
amplify the atrocities the kapo filth are doing
How? Its already a fucking deathklok show.
that increases the probability trump gets elected
And whose fucking fault is that?
And whose fucking fault is that?
That would be the fault of the idiots who'd rather see the literal authoritarian mad man come to power again than vote for Biden.
The suffering in Gaza has to stop but not voting Biden will have the opposite effect.
Could've run anyone other than biden. Could have offered us something, anything, that we actually want.
Biden could have proven he deserved two hours of my time in the past four years. Literally all he has to do, and theres still time, is "blockade against Cuba over. Blockade against Israel begin. All humanitarian aid must go through Palestine, Palestinian authorities must approve every shipment at the border, get right to loot at leisure"
Hell, they could even offer some of the accelerationist/unserious trump votes an actually good option to fucking engage them and take fascism off the table. They could do that. They don't.
And when they do win with a good candidate, they still roll over and let the fascist have the seat (last time they ran a good candidate was 2000), so even if I did like someone and want to vote for them, if I see a D by their name, I know even if they win, they'll never take office.
If you offer me a trolley problem, and I ask "why the fuck do you keep tying people to the other track, dude? What the fuck!?" And then after the fifth or six time just stop, I just stop signing off on your murders and step off the murder trolley, I'm not the monster here. ... Actually, this is literally a description of a scene in 'the good place', and it's a literal demon doing it to a terminally indecisive moral philosophy professor. Because its comically evil. Literally its a comedy and the audience is supposed to laugh at the absurdity of how pointlessly evil it is, and its the perfect metaphor for the democratic party.
Hey, that's not fair - many of them are paid by the RNC to turn off left leaning voters.
I have an account on lemmygrad and when I created it, I was asked about my politics. They formally accepted every left ideology but when you say anything remotely anti-authoritarian, you get downvoted into oblivion
Mind boggling. Like seriously, I am as left wing as they come and for me that is defined by anti-authoritarian views. Fascists aren't bad because they are the wrong kind of fascist.
to be fair, tankies are the fascist skinwalkers wearing the visage of the lefties they killed
Oh shit. I now I dont know if I like this, or "Leftist version of a Nazi Brony" more
Almost literally, if you know jack shit about the Russian revolution.
Permanently Deleted
I've recently come to the conclusion that they are the leftist version of Nazi Bronies, like, dude, you're one of the first populations that your preferred rulers are going to purge.
Nah. People like that end up being pushed into paramilitary shit or the bureaucracy.
I totally agree with you. That said, tankies will argue some shit why they are further left. You can go into that discussion about the semantics of left and distract from the fact that tankies are evil. Or stop "gatekeeping" leftness and argue why they are bad.
Not doubting you, but what do you mean by "anti-authouritarian?" Presumably you've read Engels' On Authority so you know what they are operating under the pretense of, I can see anti-Marxist takes getting removed or downvoted. It is Lemmygrad after all, not Lemmy EZLN or Lemmy Catalonia.
I didn't mean to disagree with you. Just add that they are formally open to other leftist viewpoints but not effectively.
And yes, you will get alot of strawmans like Engels' On Authority. If you want an analysis of the text, this video debunks it quite well
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
this video debunks it quite well
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Are you an anti-Engels Marxist? I'm sorry, I think I actually agree with downvoting you, lol. That's silly.
No, I'm not a Marxist. I agree with him in some points and agree with some libertarian Marxists but at the end, they say alot of stuff Bakunin, Kropotkin, Goldman, ... said long before
So... why are you surprised that you get downvoted for being an Anarchist in a Marxist-Leninist space?
I'm not surprised. If anything, I was surprised to be accepted into it at the first place. Sometimes I'm surprised by the low level of education some people have. You mentioned Catalonia. Some people don't seem to know nor want to know anything about the Spanish civil war or the anything. I sometimes try to argue with people from different ideologies because I think it's an opportunity for all to grow and sharpen their position but I'm not surprised to be downvoted. In no comment of this thread did I express surprise
no, the Catalonians betrayed the revolution, so they were working together with the francoists, because we need a big daddy strongman in charge!
So then it seems like an accepting place for people to learn about Marxism-Leninism, but is primarily a space for Marxism-Leninism.
Lenin had some disagreements with Marx, i dont even like marx ans lenin is worse, and 'marxist lenninist' means 'stalinist'. Which is even worse. You cannot call them 'leftists'.
What is a leftist, if not someone advocating collective owmership of Capital? Leftist isn't a syononym for "good," of course, but I fail to see how Marxist-Leninists aren't leftists.
In the USSR the serfs were still serfs even if they weren't called that, the workers still didn't own the means of production, and there was still a tiny room of delusional shit sticks making all the decisions, often wildly irrationally.
Better than one guy doing it, but no more, or not much more communist than the UK or France.
The USSR was a Worker State, owned and run by the workers. Soviet Democracy was the base model of decision making, along the formation of Democratic Centralism.
There were numerous struggles and issues with the USSR, of course. There was corruption, especially among the Politburo. The focus on heavy industry over light industry, though favorable during WWII, resulted in fewer luxury commodities, which resulted in liberalization and collapse.
Fundamentally, it is entirely silly to say that the USSR wasn't leftist. It absolutely was, even if it was highly flawed and imperfect. In fact, it's useful to analyze what went right (free eduaction, high home ownership, generous social safety net) and what went wrong (corruption, lack of luxury commodities, etc.) so as to come up with a better system.
That is, unless you think Marxism isn't leftist, and think only Anarchism counts as leftist, in which case I really don't know what to tell you.
The Bolsheviks killed all the communists. Including the Marxists.
That's certainly a statement, backed up by nothing but posturing and not an ounce of analysis.
If you can meaningfully explain how Lenin and the Bolsheviks were not Marxists, I'd be very surprised, but I am willing to hear your case. What do you believe would have been the Marxist structure? The same as the USSR, just without the corruption? Is it just vibes and aesthetics?
Marxist? Maybe. But they skirted around the edges and avoided any unpleasant communism.
As shown by the fact they basically dismantled all the soviets and turned them into some parliamentary shit?
The justification for replacing the factory committees with the union system is because the factory committees were focusing competitively on local issues, rather than cooperatively at a national level. I don't believe this makes it less leftist. This improved productivity in a time when the factories were more chaotic.
How would you propose the Bolsheviks could have handled the situation in a more thoroughly Communist manner, given what they had to work with at the time?
Marx was, and I couldn't stand reading that bastard because of how he talked about the 'lumpenproletariat', that shit made my blood boil, so maybe I'm missing something, pretty vague on specific structures of post revolutionary organization. More about what communism was and how to get it.
And its very cute to say the state is the workers, but when they have to switch to building impractical useless products to keep up with the irrational demands of the state, or be punished I think its pretty clearly unmasked as a lie, and blatantly insane to still claim.
I'm not claiming any one group or ideology owns the Russian revolution-it was a big tent, it was a big fight, and it took place over, at any given moment, at least half the day. Which is wild. I'm saying the Bolsheviks were reactionaries. They knew they were reactionaries. And they killed the communists.
What made you upset about the Lumpenproletariat? Either way, Marx describes a bit about what a Socialist state might look like in Critique of the Gotha Programme, but is careful not to actually decide anything or give a template.
I understand that you are saying the Bolsheviks were reactionaries. The Bolsheviks claimed the Anarchists were counter-revolutionaries. What evidence do you have that the Bolsheviks were against implementing Socialism and eventually Communism?
Reactionary is specifically used for enemies of the revolution, not the ones carrying it out.
I am not defending the killing of the Anarchists, but questioning the language of "reactionary" as used by you.
There is the fascist
In what manner at all? Fascism is fucking horrible. I am recommending about Marx and Engels as examples of Leftists. Unless, of course, you think Communism is fascist, in which case I really don't know what to tell you.
Lemmy.ml is still focused on FOSS and Privacy
Meanwhile at c/worldnews they remove replies where people disagree that Ukraine is run by fascists and Putin should take it.
.ml is rapidly becoming the joke of the fediverse with how unapologetically they hand out bans for even mild wrong think.
That's a straight lie. ML will quickly ban you for pointing out Russian astroturfing and Russian propaganda, but they barely give a shit about anything else.
Got any fun or good examples?
Other than just browsing the modlog (actually do it from .ml since they seem to selectively federate the logs these days) The asklemmy thread about fediverse trolls is pretty much a perfect example of the .ml mods/admins falling over themselves to ban any dissent as "incivility" while letting actual trolls get away with actual incivility.
Just realized that .ml is a domain hack for tankies. Go figure.