Bernie Sanders to voters skipping presidential election over Israel: ‘Trump is even worse’
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) shares his message to voters in the Uncommitted Movement who are considering not voting in the presidential race over the Biden administration's handling of Israel.
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Yes, Trump is even worse. But killing innocent people is still so bad that I am harmed by it being politically acceptable.
If politics is killing innocent people more nicely ('yeah, that's bad, but it just happens') or more nastily ('haw haw stupid children'), I no longer care about politics.
Let's say Trump gets elected, and ten years from now, some kid asks you, "What did you do to prevent this?"
Are you going to tell them you just didn't care enough to bother?
Let's say in 10 years, the choice is between a dem who wants 20 genocides and a republican who wants 21: will you still be a militant democrat?
That depends entirely on what the rest of their platform looks like. If the republican's platform resembles Trump, and we're still operating within a 2-party system, you can bet your ass I will, because there's more at stake than one issue.
Look, we have two options: Vote against Trump, or don't. That's it. And if you aren't voting for a viable candidate, which right now is Harris, and only Harris, you're not voting against Trump. Simple as that.
To me, this just means there's no evil great enough that our politicians could commit that would make you start questioning the validity of our government and electoral process. This is the liberal idealism that leftists talk about.
Is this accurate? Is there any evil great enough that would compel you to start considering tearing it all down?
I know our electoral process is bullshit, and I believe our government is corrupt as hell.
I'm also a pragmatist. I can either work within the confines of the system we have to try and effect the least harm possible, or I can register a protest vote now in hopes that some time in the future it'll help fix things. I'm taking the first option.
If we manage to change the voting system to allow for third party votes without sabotaging our own self interests in the meantime, I'm all for it. If third party candidates want to run for lesser offices where they have a chance of being elected and have a chance of making a difference, I'm all for it. But voting for a third party candidate for president, or declining to vote as a protest maneuver, is simply the worst option. It's looking for a long-term solution to a very short-term problem, and I simply can't see any good argument for taking that approach.
Electing Trump right now is 'tearing it all down', but not in the way I want.
ten years from now, some kid asks you
Ten years from now, a Palestinian child asks you, but they never existed, because their parents were killed.
The non voters will tell the children that letting Palestine be destroyed was worth it. That participating in genocide wasn't that bad.
Kamala has a chance in slowing down the israel-hamas war and hopefully stopping it. While Trump wants to accelerate it. Choosing one candidate gives us a chance to turn things around, or at least slow down in order to turn around. The other candidate will immediate exterminate everybody in Palestine
And it's not just about Palestine either. A Trump presidency also means genocide for queer people in America, and a fascist role model for the rest of the world. Plus, Trump's climate plan amounts to omnicide. We need to get Harris in the white house. This election could be the final chance for us to avert the end of life as we know it on earth.
In that same 10 year, some kid asks, what did liberals do to prevent this during Biden's term.
You can respond we were at brunch we didn't notice what was going on.
I'm against innocent people being killed. I'm sorry that upsets you. It may well be that, under Trump, more innocent people will be killed. Still, I have the preference of voting for people who reduce the number of innocent people being killed, rather than voting for people who condone it.
Yes, Trump is even worse. But killing innocent people is still so bad that I am harmed by it being politically acceptable. Humans will destroy themselves because they lack compassion for other living beings, and that's just what it is. You can get angry at me because I don't like that, but that's just another lack of compassion, and I won't be surprised.
Yeah, that's cool, so am I - that's not the only thing that's on the ballot, though, and you can try to justify it as "Well, I'm not voting for anyone", but this is very much a "If you aren't voting against Trump, you're voting for him, directly or indirectly" situation.
It's cool, though - I'm sure everyone will understand. You couldn't do the bare minimum to prevent an authoritarian takeover because you felt very strongly about one issue. Nevermind that your actions actually made that issue's outcome worse for the people you purport to care about. We'll all overlook that.
AKA:
“Why are you hitting that screw with a hammer?”
“I refuse to use a screwdriver; it takes too long and I’m morally opposed to patents that you get with screwdriver heads.”
“You do know that your hammering is going to make a total mess of things, rIght?”
“I don’t care; it’s the principled stance I’m willing to take to build this house.”
Claims to have a principled opposition to screwdriver head patents: buys screws anyway.
Sounds like the Democrats to me. All "I'm the anti-genocide candidate!" while shipping cluster bombs to the middle east.
It’s possible for both to be correct. You can’t fix the US government by voting third party for President, because the system isn’t set up to support that. First you have to deal with the electoral college and FTTP voting, then the laws on the books, which means electing third party representatives who are willing to support changing the laws.
And on the other hand, the President can at least call out what Congress is doing that’s enabling genocide in the middle east instead of politely asking for both sides to stop killing each other so everyone can talk, while representing the people sending weapons to one side of the conflict, who are taking advantage of their position in government to methodically wipe out an entire people.
And on the other hand, the President can at least call out what Congress is doing that’s enabling genocide in the middle east
I was told that no one can because AIPAC.
Thank you for saying this.
AKA: whatever this tedious bullshit is.
you felt very strongly about one issue
Yes, I feel very strongly about innocent lives.
Given that, I expect you'll be voting for the 'less bad' candidate, rather than wasting your vote on a protest candidate which only assists the 'more bad' candidate in winning, then?
No, I will not be voting. If I were to be able to vote, I would prefer a candidate who works to stop innocent people from being killed, rather than condone it happening. I find that quite an important moral issue.
If you'd be just as happy with Donald "Do what you have to do" Trump as with Harris, you can't feel too strongly about innocent lives.
You can't go from an "if" to a "you" accusatory statement so well when that "if" isn't true.
If the 'If' isn't true, then the 'you' doesn't apply to you, that's how conditionals work.
You’re a single issue voter. Think about that.
Yes, the most important single issue to me is not killing innocent people. If that's not an important single issue to you, I disagree with your morality.
If the Overton Windows shifts further right, will be we arguing that we must vote Dem because they'll criminalise fewer women who have miscarried? Because they'll fight for the 'least flamboyant queers' to keep their jobs?
My stand is that killing innocent people is wrong. You can disagree, we seem to live in a world where killing innocent people on purpose is something that we have to put up with for the sake of democracy functioning.
In politics you choose a direction. Do you want more death, less death, or don't care about the deaths.
Trump is more deaths, Harris is less deaths, not voting is that you don't care about the deaths (or a different differentiating issue matters more)
Those are your choices when it comes to voting and encouraging others to vote.
That is your impact, pick one
not voting is that you don’t care about the deaths
Voting for someone who condones killing innocents is not acceptable.
You are inventing that anyone is condoning killing innocent's BUT that's not even important.
You get to pick, you want more deaths, less deaths, or don't care.
There are no other impacts you can have with your vote.
If you care deeply you can join marches and protest. The many people who are doing so will gladly tell you Harris is not doing enough, but that it would be idiotic to not vote for her.
I want to support a candidate who is against killing innocents.
You are inventing that anyone is condoning killing innocent's
I have personally talked to people who condone Israel killing innocent people. They rationalise it in all kinds of ways. That's what people tend to do, which is why I am not fond of people.
Harris is calling for an investigation into Israel that would reduce the amount of innocent deaths, and they've been trying to negotiate a cease fire for a while now.
The executive branch has very little power to stop congress from approving funding for anything.
That is good.
Executive branch has 100% control over actual spending. Congress could approve $10T for Israel, and executive can spend it as fast or slow or none as it feels like. Congresses only power is setting a ceiling on spending.
This sounds great but isn't really true at all. Please don't spread misinformation.
money Congress appropriates? Yes, federal agencies must prudently plan to spend money during its period of availability, but the President can request that Congress cancel or rescind some of this funding. The Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act (Impoundment Control Act) of 1974 outlines a fast-track procedure for legislation responding to a President's rescission request. Upon submitting a proposal to Congress, the President can withhold the funds targeted for rescission for up to 45 days or until a withholding would prevent the funding from being prudently obligated. If Congress has not enacted legislation by the end of that period, the funds must be released, and they cannot be proposed for rescission again under the Impoundment Control Act. Until 2018, a president had not proposed a rescission under this process since 2000. In May 2018, President Trump sent a package of proposed rescissions to Congress for consideration. Congress did not act on that request to approve any of the proposed reductions under the fast-track procedure, and the funding was released.
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impoundment_of_appropriated_funds
Ok, thank you. There was a lot of unspent covid relief allocations, fussed over without anyone in congress trying to force the spending. It would seem impossible to impose quality of spending criteria.
There was a lot of unspent covid relief allocations, fussed over without anyone in congress trying to force the spending.
Yes, but those might have helped Americans. When it's propping up the political career of the fascist head of a genocidal apartheid state, that's when congress springs into action and makes it happen. Funny how Netanyahu doesn't have to wait for decades for incrementalists to get off their worthless asses to get what he wants.
I’m against innocent people being killed. I’m sorry that upsets you.
[…]
You can get angry at me because I don’t like that, but that’s just another lack of compassion, and I won’t be surprised.
If you think your stance is more moral than others' and would like for people to agree with you, have you tried not being a complete cunt about it?
I have no dog in this race since I live in a country with a sane voting system, so you can spare me your performative moral outrage.
I live in a country with a sane voting system
You don't have a spare room by any chance, do you?
Unfortunately the voting system is the only sane part about Finland. Our current government is so far right that it includes multiple literal neo-Nazis and a pedophile neo-Nazi (who stepped in to replace a neo-Nazi), and multiple ministers (well ok, a minister and the Speaker of the Parliament) have fantasized in public about murdering eg. gay people or foreigners. The Speaker of the Parliament is also one of the right wing mass murderer Breivik's idols, and has obliquely spoken in support of Breivik's act of terror.
This place is a conservative shithole and I suggest anyone considering a vacation here to go somewhere else, especially if you're not white or cishet
The Speaker of the Parliament is also one of the right wing mass murderer Breivik’s idols, and has obliquely spoken in support of Breivik’s act of terror.
Killing the outgroup is popular. This is because "if we oppress them, we look good because we have power."
People like him make it clear that we're soon going to be in a "us or them" situation here – these people literally want to murder leftists, 50% of the country's voting age population supports them (and distressingly the youth vote went to the right), and their rhetoric is getting more and more violent by the day.
This current government is normalizing fascist speech and tactics, and it won't be too long until talk of some sort of final solution to the leftist question will be completely normal, and after that it won't be too long until they actually start implementing it. Unfortunately the majority of people who are willing to use political violence are conservatives, because like I said, soon it's going to be us or them.
If you don't defend human decency against violence, you don't get human decency.
have you tried not being a complete cunt about it?
No, but I have tried blocking people who are rude.
I’m against innocent people being killed. I’m sorry that upsets you.
[…]
You can get angry at me because I don’t like that, but that’s just another lack of compassion, and I won’t be surprised.
cries about people being rude
I'm actually more upset about how terrible your post formatting is.
I’m against innocent people being killed. I’m sorry that upsets you.
[…]
You can get angry at me because I don’t like that, but that’s just another lack of compassion, and I won’t be surprised.
cries about people being rude
makes weird jabs about formatting when their hypocrisy is pointed out
I'll leave you to your fascist country, Hopefully they won't kill you. Maybe that's why you're so upset? It has nothing to do with me.
I'm going to point at the Green Party, one of the 3 major parties in the current election, and at the 3 or 4 smaller parties that are gaining traction, then I am going to explain to them that 10 years ago, the country was deeply gripped by a plutocratic fascist duopoly and I did what was necessary to combat that fascism while others accepted it and pledged to it because it was in their best interest to just fall in line.
Then I will encourage them never to kiss the ring of fascism and genocide in order to preserve their own personal feelings of security.
one of the 3 major parties in the current election
Call it what you want, but the green party has no chance of making an impact on the outcome of this election except as a spoiler candidate.
I did what was necessary to combat that fascism
And by that you mean voting for the only non-fascist candidate with a chance of winning the election, right?
These liberals voting for the green party think that letting a genocide happen now is an acceptable cost of doing business if it maybe leads to a Green presidency in 30 years. They're willing to be complicit in Trump's genocide.
The. Democrats. Are. The. Ones. Who. Started. The. Genocide.
This is Genocidal Joe's genocide. Trump will just inherit the framework Biden built.
No, Winston Churchill started it. He's not a Democrat. He's not even American. Also, it doesn't matter who started it. "He started it" is an appropriate argument to use on the playground when you get in trouble for fighting. This is a genocide. It's a little more serious, and drag would appreciate it if you took it seriously.
Liberals don't vote for the green party. Not genocidey enough.
Sure it is. The Green Party is doing more to make genocide happen than the Democrats are. The Greens are explicitly running as a spoiler candidate to make Harris lose swing states. This will cause Trump to win the presidency and bomb the West Bank.
We are not in a position to win the White House, but we do have a real opportunity to win something historic, we could deny Kamala Harris the state of Michigan. And the polls show that most likely Harris cannot win the election without Michigan.
Source: https://www.nj.com/politics/2024/10/harris-vs-trump-spoiler-says-the-quiet-part-out-loud.html
You seem to have liberals and leftists confused. Liberals support Democrats because they're happy that the party has come around to supporting the genocide they've always wanted. Some leftists don't want genocide and vote for someone you don't want them to (someone who, yes, is an intentional spoiler, which I've said before), so you have to pretend that your genocide support is the moral genocide support.
You're no different. I voted for Harris, by the way. Took a long shower afterwards. Didn't help. I will resent Democrats forever for manipulating me into voting for liberals' genocide.
Drag isn't supporting genocide. Drag is picking Harris and her plan to end the genocide over Trump's genocide, and over apathetic complicity. Drag is picking the option with the greatest chance of preventing the most genocide. On the other hand, liberals will pay taxes into the president's war chest and do nothing to prevent Trump from taking that war chest and using their money for genocide. That's complicity.
Drag is picking Harris and her plan to end the genocide
I voted for Harris. I harbor no illusions that she has any plan to end the genocide. Show me this plan if it isn't fiction.
I was referencing the election cycle in 10 years.
And I don't vote like a 13 year old trying to get my buddy the little fake crown for homecoming. Green party hits 5%, they get federal election funding, we are no longer a 2 party nation.
All this time the shills have been saying "vote for the genocide today, and then start the work the day after election day to make the Green party viable" has been a shameless diversion tactic the entire time.
I can throw away my vote on a genocidal cop who is pro-border wall, pro-incarceration of refugees, pro-genocide, pro-cop city, pro-lethal response to protesters, etc, or I can vote for the Green party to get actual funding and actual participation in the election process in 4 years.
It would have been so much faster for the supposedly left leaning party to actually lean left and get my vote, but since they decided to disenfranchise me and do everything they can to silence me, my went Green.
we are no longer a 2 party nation
We're a two-party nation as long as first past the post voting is the standard. If you want the green party to be taken seriously, that should me what you're campaigning for, not a third candidate in an inherently two-party system.
I can throw away my vote on a genocidal cop who is pro-border wall, pro-incarceration of refugees, pro-genocide, pro-cop city, pro-lethal response to protesters, etc, or I can vote for the Green party to get actual funding and actual participation in the election process in 4 years.
You can vote for a candidate who's got a chance of beating the authoritarian dictator wannabe, or you can throw away your vote on a spoiler candidate with no chance of winning the election on the hopes that other people don't do the same and let Trump win.
I do hope that if Trump wins, all of you people who're trying to take the moral high ground will reflect on the situation and realize that you not only didn't do the bare minimum you could have to stop it, your actions actually indirectly assisted him gaining power again. I don't have much hope that that will happen, but I hope it does.
It's really a shame, because normally, I'd be very in support of the green party. I like their platform. But they need to get political seats elsewhere before going for the fucking presidency. Even if, by some weird happenstance, they got elected, they would be completely blocked by the other branches of government at every turn. Get some seats in local government, get some seats in state governments, get some house and senate seats, then try to join the big leagues.
Exactly, Jill Stein is a stooge with no government experience whatsoever who thinks she can jump right in and be president of the most powerful country on earth. Not to mention taking money from republicans and accepting legal aid from Trump's personal attorneys. It's a joke.
If you want to be a real candidate, start with city council. Mayor. Governor. state senate. ANYTHING and work up from there. But she isn't interested in making any actual progress.
Look at AOC for example, a progressive politician who is starting where she can actually make a difference and learn how to be a legislator and leader. Who knows, maybe one day we can vote for her for president.
When you lose with your "fall in line with my fascist" bullshit, remember you are at fault for your own loss.
You could have stood up for what is right, you could have influenced the Democrats to return to their roots, but you didnt. You made excuses for them and championed their fascism.
You are the reason they lost.
I honestly hope you're getting paid by someone to be here. The Trump campaign, Musk, Putin, China, somebody, because at least then I could understand your stance from a purely self-serving standpoint. If this is your sincerely held belief, I don't know what happened to get you here, but you should probably review your sources and really think about what you're saying, because it's pure fiction.
Not a penny.
You are projecting how the DNC is paying TikTokkers to play their spin. (didnt TikTok get banned by purple fascist federal decree?)
I just voted with a clear conscience, and a plan that in 4 years, Green will be in the mix, and if it goes well, in 8 years America will have stopped being fascist.
Green party hits 5%, they get federal election funding, we are no longer a 2 party nation
Bullshit. They have been receiving public funds you numb nuts. You can verify that from the Federal Election Commission. Here is their spreadsheet they provide as summary.
Please go fuck off with this argument as it is 100% verifiably false. This is literally lies that the Green party has told you. They routinely squander the money they receive because they hire zero talent to actually use funds in a meaningful manner. They have zero ground game, they only focus on top ticket rarely if ever down ticket, and office and PR positions are absolute shit.
Holy fucking shit have you eaten their lies, whole cake worth of them. I am so sorry you think the current leadership of the Green party is actually honest. Maybe if we were talking the 1980s leadership, but holy fuck, the Green party today has been overtaken by folks who are in it for them and them alone. And they go out and play victim, "Oh this system is not fair!!!" When their own willful incompetence ruined any chance.
I won't have this bullshit of victim they play. The Green party can suck a dick, the people running it have successfully ran that fucking boat into the goddamn iceberg at full throttle. Anyone supporting Stein is so fucking clueless at this point, there's zero redemption. Jill ain't in this for any kind of morality, she's in it for money, lights, and attention. The number of people who haven't caught on to this is absolutely astounding.
But we are NOT going to pretend that the Green party hasn't been receiving federal election funds, when that is so effortlessly proven FALSE. If you've been giving her money, she using that money to eat well, cause she ain't spending it on getting elected. And I assure you, she'll be out and about playing victim when she loses this time too.
Green party hits 5%, they get federal election funding, we are no longer a 2 party nation
But BULLSHIT, BULL FUCKING SHIT. BULL ---- SHIT!! That bitch has had millions handed to her and we still a two party system. Do NOT be spouting this bullshit. Don't be a pawn in her little victim game. She's a bad person, you do NOT need to be played by her game. You want to fix the two party system? Go to your State assembly, because THAT IS WHERE IT IS FIXED.
This little path that you explained, you're being played by dumb motherfuckers who are halfwits at politics.
but since they decided to disenfranchise me and do everything they can to silence me, my went Green
No what happened was you lost your backbone and in your moment of weakness you got played by dumber idiots than Trump. The fact you think this two party system is fixed by the President election proves you have zero fucking clues. You know what, you should likely throw your vote away. I don't think you have anything to contribute to the left or the right. If you just stay 3rd party for the rest of your life, both parties can just write you off. If you vote 3rd party the rest of your life and not fix this at the State level, then you're no different than a dead voter. That's what Republicans and Democrats know about third parties, that's why they don't sweat them.
Because this whole "if we only get 5%" argument is a lie they tell you to keep sending them checks. They've been getting money, they've been getting election dollars, they aren't hurting for cash. Jill just doesn't want the job, because if she did, she would be running the party a whole lot like the 1980s and not this current "let's waste money as fast as we possibly can" mentality she currently has.
It's right there in black and white. They're being handed the tools to succeed down ticket. They just don't want it and that's why they don't go down ballot, that's why they have zero ground game, that's why they disappear for four years right after the election. They don't want to win, they just want your fucking money.
They SHOULD HAVE been receiving donation matching, but the Democrat Party meticulously filed injunctions in every state to block those funds until the very end of the election cycle.
At 5%, they get a cut of the blanket federal election fund through a channel the Democrat Party cant throw frivolous lawsuits at to sabotage the campaigns.
Fuck off with your fascist misinformation, you filthy bootlicker.
You know I commented, but you aren't even worth that reply.
But here's that link just in case you missed it.
https://www.fec.gov/updates/fec-declares-stein-eligible-to-receive-2024-matching-funds/
Green or socialist party (better. not funded by GOP even if you don't buy into socialism generally) in California or other non-swing state. Awesome. In swing state, destructive.
Green Party ... major parties
That's a great joke... oh, you're serious.
Their membership is < 1/3 that of the libertarian party.
You heartless liberals think that sacrificing thousands of Palestinian lives in the here and now is worth it in order to have a chance at a Green Party presidency maybe in 30 years. No! Genocide is never an acceptable cost of doing business. Stop being complicit in genocide! Vote for Harris.
Stop being complicit in genocide! Vote for Harris.
If Harris were pledging to reign in Israel from killing innocent people, I would wholeheartedly agree with this.
The president and I are working around the clock every day to get that ceasefire deal done
Kamala Harris
now is the time to get a ceasefire deal and get the hostage deal done.
Kamala Harris
We're not going to stop in terms of putting that pressure on Israel and in the region including Arab leaders
Kamala Harris
it is time for this war to end and end in a way where Israel is secure, all the hostages are released, the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza ends, and the Palestinian people can exercise their right to freedom, dignity and self-determination.
Kamala Harris
Thank you for agreeing.
I agree that you posted something that does not indicate that killing innocents will stop.
The one who is steadfast pro-genocide...
Am I missing something here?
Harris cant answer a question to save her life, but an answer she has given over and over IM TALKING... is that she unconditionally condones and supports the genocide.
If politics is killing innocent people
It's not just politics, it's a rule of law. We have passed in the past under different administrations laws requiring funding to the Israeli state. Only via our legal process can we undo that. Now there are some laws that allow the President to suspend funding that has been legally appropriated, but those only go so far.
It's a will of Congress and the understanding that we are a nation of laws, that money keeps funneling towards Israel. But at the same time there are some bending of the laws via creative justification that allows us to setup a floating pier and deliver supplies to the Palestinians.
And Israel doesn't want aid being delivered by the United States because at the same time it allows them to begin collecting evidence against Israel's current abuse of human rights.
There has to be an understanding that there is a process by which an administration has to follow. It's dumb we have that process, I won't deny that, but until Congress gets off it's collective ass and change that, we have to follow that process. Otherwise, just doing whatever opens the door for folks to do whatever in the opposite direction as well and have zero recourse.
But killing innocent people is still so bad that I am harmed by it being politically acceptable
It's not acceptable but at the same time we can have two takes to it. We either follow our laws or we don't. Everything that has created this situation, that didn't happen overnight. The laws that provide unquestionable aid to Israel, those weren't passed in the last four years. It takes time to undo those things. Now that does provide a means for innocent people to die and you have every right to be disgusted by it. I will absolutely not tell you, that your opinion is incorrect. It's dumb that we've put ourselves into this position.
But that said, absent any system, this "I no longer care about politics", the ONLY thing that will do is ensure the complete and effective eradication of these people. The "I no longer care about politics" stance is synonymous with the "I don't care if these innocent people are wiped from this Earth."
This is a difficult conflict and it's wild that so many people toss their hands into the air and shout "I don't care anymore!!" the second the conflict actually gets into one of it's really difficult phases. If this phase of the conflict troubles you, you are not an ally for any means of protecting innocents that you think you are. Protection of people's lives is dirty ass work, if the messiness of the politics of this troubles you, you wouldn't be able to save anyone anyway. It may come as a surprise to many here, but humanitarian crisis like this are messy affairs, shit is complex, and nobody ever walks away hands clean. Who knew the world was like this?
People seem to forget that our government was intentionally created to be hard to change.
But that said, absent any system, this “I no longer care about politics”, the ONLY thing that will do is ensure the complete and effective eradication of these people. The “I no longer care about politics” stance is synonymous with the “I don’t care if these innocent people are wiped from this Earth.”
I disagree. I care very much about innocent lives, but I don't care much for a political system which views those lives as a necessary price to pay for diplomacy.
Ho Chi Minh knew all about America's long history of slavery and genocide. He knew that and he welcomed the Americans who came to fight the Japanese.
Any questions?
Help me I'm being harmed by Biden
