Idk I personally can empathize with people that have been forced by the Zionist regime to indiscriminately kill civilians "for the greater good" without necessarily blaming the individuals themselves..
Like I don't question there are IOF soldiers that are bloodthirsty and see Palestinians as less than human target practice - but I also doubt that a person that experiences severe PTSD and takes their own life was like "hell yeah let's bulldoze some Palestinian kids!1!" - I think this just shows that while the Zionist genocidal machine massively harms Palestinians first and foremost - it also has a detrimental effect on its own citizens (see Vietnamese war veterans) - so while it may seem "just" to clown on the puppets carrying out the genocide on the ground - some of them are still just mislead people that have been fed on an abundant diet of hasbara 🤷🏽♀️
He was a civilian for most of his life, working as a manager at an Israeli construction company. After witnessing the massacres committed by Hamas, he felt the need to fight, Jenny told CNN.
Still I would imagine the propaganda had convinced him he was signing up to "fight terrorists" and not murder innocent civilians - as Omer Bartov puts it:
It seemed to me that they had not only internalised a particular view that has become commonplace in Israel – namely, that the destruction of Gaza as such was a legitimate response to 7 October – but had also developed a way of thinking that I had observed many years ago when studying the conduct, worldview and self-perception of German army soldiers in the second world war. Having internalised certain views of the enemy – the Bolsheviks as Untermenschen; Hamas as human animals – and of the wider population as less than human and undeserving of rights, soldiers observing or perpetrating atrocities tend to ascribe them not to their own military, or to themselves, but to the enemy.
Obviously this doesn't excuse murdering civilians but I guess I'm just worried we're falling in the same trap of painting all Israelis as bloodthirsty monsters - instead of acknowledging that some of them are just normal people that have been duped by the Zionist state into committing atrocities against their fellow humans and that black and white thinking only serves to uphold this cycle of hatred. (literal example from this very thread)
I guess I'm just worried we're falling in the same trap of painting all Israelis as bloodthirsty monsters - instead of acknowledging that some of them are just normal people that have been duped by the Zionist state into committing atrocities against their fellow humans and that black and white thinking only serves to uphold this cycle of hatred. (literal example from this very thread)
Duped into committing atrocities. Duped into committing atrocities. Those poor saps were just mislead into committing crimes against humanity, literal torture upon children. Your logic here is that we shouldn't paint them all as bloodthirsty monsters since some of them were "duped" into being... well, bloodthirsty monsters. Regardless of how they arrived there, that still makes them bloodthirsty monsters!
You are what you do. It doesn't matter whether or not someone was "duped" into believing the obvious lie that a Palestinian's life isn't worth as much as theirs, or that they were "duped" into committing (or even just supporting) atrocities. They still did those things. Those who were the victims of those atrocities are no less victims, no better off just because one or two of the perpetrators were "duped" into mercilessly murdering entire families. At this point, anyone who identifies as an Israeli but who is not actively fighting against Zionism and all who support it then they well deserve the title of bloodthirsty monster. They deserve far worse than just a label, honestly.
So no, we're not "falling in to the same trap" of painting with too broad of a brush, we're recognizing actual material reality. We're recognizing the material consequences of Zionism and correctly concluding what must happen to Zionism itself. This isn't black and white thinking, to the contrary it is recognizing the very real nuances that differentiate the colonizers from the colonized, and it is doing so without falling into the idealist trap that you have that leads down the same road as "well those Nazi concentration camp guards, hey some of them were just normal people trying to make the best of a bad situation." As usual, the problem is not that we as communists are failing to see that these monsters are human too, it's the liberal who fails to see that "normal humans" can and do become monsters. And whether or not one did so with giddy abandon or because their mind was already rotted to the extent that they believed (were "duped" by) propaganda telling them that they were righteous for trying to wipe out all Palestinian children, it doesn't fucking matter. Functionally, they are monsters.
Since you bring up German soldiers I am stitching together some quotes from Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland:
...The battalion had orders to kill Jews, but each individual did not. Yet 80 to 90 percent of the men proceeded to kill, though almost all of them—at least initially—were horrified and disgusted by what they were doing. To break ranks and step out, to adopt overtly nonconformist behavior, was simply beyond most of the men. It was easier for them to shoot...
The behavior of any human being is, of course, a very complex phenomenon, and the historian who attempts to "explain" it is indulging in a certain arrogance. What, then, is one to conclude? Most of all, one comes away from the story of Reserve Police Battalion 101 with great unease. This story of ordinary men is not the story of all men. The reserve policemen faced choices, and most of them committed terrible deeds. But those who killed cannot be absolved by the notion that anyone in the same situation would have done as they did. For even among them, some refused to kill and others stopped killing. Human responsibility is ultimately an individual matter.
At the same time, the collective behavior of Reserve Police Battalion 101 has deeply disturbing implications. There are many societies afflicted by traditions of racism and caught in the siege mentality of war or threat of war. Everywhere society conditions people to respect and defer to authority, and indeed could scarcely function otherwise. Everywhere people seek career advancement. In every modern society, the complexity of life and the resulting bureaucratization and specialization attenuate the sense of personal responsibility of those implementing official policy. Within virtually every social collective, the peer group exerts tremendous pressures on behavior and sets moral norms. If the men of Reserve Battalion 101 could become killers under such circumstances, what group of men cannot?
You can argue you were duped by the state or you were just doing your job or you were too young and stupid, but ultimately a human is responsible for their actions.
You don't like the comment calling the Israelis fascist cowards, but when there comes a moment in a person's life that they must decide what they stand for, especially when that choice is most difficult, and instead of making it you decide to pretend that you can abdicate your own free will and let someone else make the decision on your behalf: I believe that to be true cowardice.
And when the choice is participating in mass murder or what, going to military prison at worst? losing your job? your murderous friends? What else can you call a person like that but a fascist coward? Compassion for whatever anguish they feel cannot beget forgetfulness of their victims, all of whom were allotted no choice in their suffering. We all hold the capacity to commit horrible acts of violence and cruelty, most people don't. Those that do need to accept their own role in the crimes they committed, even of they weren't the only one responsible.
Naw they always have a choice. That one person who ran a Taylor Swift fan account took a moral stance and is braver than 100% of any of the cowards in the IOF.
Every single IOF troop could get or and I wouldn't shed a tear
To a small degree maybe, but I imagine if you're not enthusiastic about killing children you get shuffled off to some other role reasonably quickly. As an institution they're motivated to match the real bloodthirsty psychos with the hands-on jobs, and give the genocide-support roles to the squeamish ones.
This is nazi apologia. I mean like actual, 1945, "guards at Auschwitz" nazis. A lot of Germans developed psychological problems due to their crimes against humanity. It's why they created death camps. And they all claimed they were "...just following orders." Many more claimed it was a "necessary evil to eliminate the Judeo-Bolshevik hordes."
Despite all this, nazis still got hanged after the war (especially if they were caught by the soviets). We can list Germans who didn't commit atrocities or actively fought against the genocide being carried out. There's hundreds of them listed on Wikipedia alone. The Germans knew what they were doing was wrong. They ignored morality because they wanted an excuse to steal from and kill their neighbors.