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okay, so you replied to something i said to someone else and i don't wanna get all over the place so i'm replying to it here. the quotes are just to keep things clear, i don't like quoted replies because its needlessly confrontational and weird. i'm not trying to fight you with quotes or fight you at all, just make it clear what i'm responding to here and the context.
you quoted part of my reply to someone else:
it’s sinophobic to disagree with the Chinese government, an idea I never expressed or even hinted at.
and replied:
You said the claim that “people can’t talk about TS” is sinophobic. But even a five year could follow that the reason proposed for that inability to talk is the actions of the government. So, saying it’s sinophobic to claim you can’t talk about TS is saying it’s sinophobic to disagree with the actions of the Chinese government.
again the point of me quoting that is to yank that thread over to this one because you seem to be making the same claim both here and there.
in response to that claim:
straight out of the gate, saying that recognizing the false, racist claim that people can't talk about tiannamen implies that disagreeing with the actions of the chinese government is racist is absurd.
an eagle eyed reader such as yourself will recognize that i never conflated those two, so where are you getting that idea from?
a person can easily criticise the chinese government without relying on false, racist claims and many do.
to make a bigger point and hopefully get us some understanding:
is the chinese government made up of some other non-chinese people? is it okay do use racist tropes and make false statements about the government but not the people themselves? are false claims that rely on racism acceptable criticism of a government composed almost entirely of the people that racism is aimed at?
if you're familiar with some of the dogwhistle rhetoric deployed against obama during his term, the same explanations were put forward: "i'm just criticizing the government, that's not racist!"
saying that recognizing the false, racist claim that people can't talk about tiannamen implies that disagreeing with the actions of the chinese government is racist is absurd.
So first, you still haven't provided any evidence that it is indeed false. Please do so.
Edit: Since I just know that if you respond at all it would be with a shifting of the burden onto me, I'll just go ahead and post this here as some evidence for the actions of the government to restrict speech about TS.
Second, once again, in the claim you are saying is racist, why are people not allowed to talk about it? Is the claim that the culture doesn't allow it? That the citizens around them don't allow it? Obviously, the claim is that the government doesn't allow it.
Third, you still haven't come close to proving it is racist just because it has similarities to other racist claims. My original analogy that you keep avoiding was exactly on this point:
It is not antisemitic to claim that the Israeli government is lying about its intentions with the Palestinians even though there is a racist trope that Jews lie. If we were to say that any claim that the Israeli government, which as you point out is made of Jews, is lying is antisemitic then the Israeli government is entirely immune from claims of falsehood on their part. You give them a blank check.
In exactly the same way, it is not sinophobic to claim that the Chinese government has policies and practices that ban and discourage public conversations about TS or memorial services for it even though there is a racist trope that Chinese people don't know their history. If we were to say that any claims that the Chinese government, which as you point out is made of Chinese people, is "trying to hide their history" then the Chinese government is immune from claims of impropriety about the freedom of information surrounding TS. You give them a blank check.
I don’t think I ever claimed that the Israeli government was “made of Jews”.
You’re gonna have to forgive me for this, but it really seems like you’re having a shower conversation or are getting me confused with someone else.
Are you having a talk with someone else about the same topic? That would explain some of the discrepancy…
Oh look, you finally decided to "respond" to my original analogy. To bad you entirely ignored it to obtuse about a direct reframing of your argument.
This you?
is the chinese government made up of some other non-chinese people? is it okay do use racist tropes and make false statements about the government but not the people themselves? are false claims that rely on racism acceptable criticism of a government composed almost entirely of the people that racism is aimed at?
Ya, that's the exact argument I was responding to and showing you how ridiculous it is when used in the context of Israel instead of China.
Did you maybe notice something about the last two paragraphs of my last comment? They are almost identical with a few words and phrases swapped. It's a direct analogy to show that your claim, that it is sinophobic to say "the Chinese government doesn't let people talk about TS", is indistinguishable from "it's antisemitic to say the Israeli government is lying" for exactly the same reason. Maybe you're having a hard time grasping that because you also think it's antisemitic to disagree with the statements or actions of the Israeli government?
Do I need to copy and paste your exact paragraph with Chinese swapped for Israeli?
You’re gonna have to forgive me for this, but it really seems like you’re having a shower conversation or are getting me confused with someone else.
Are you having a talk with someone else about the same topic? That would explain some of the discrepancy…
While I get how confusing it must be to talk to the same person about the same topic more than once, I didn't realize things were getting so serious. I have to admit, I'm not really one for monogamy, but I guess you could be exclusive if you want. Your jealousy is cute though. 😉
Maybe this time you'll bring even a shred of evidence showing that the claim is in fact false as I've asked for it numerous times and even provided evidence to the contrary. I know you won't, because for some reason you are stuck saying the same "it's false and racist" over and over again while failing to provide evidence it is false or a good argument that it is racist.
See that’s where it seems like your analogy falls apart. It relies on an assumption that I never made and then tries to draw a parallel with a completely different country halfway around the world with wildly different history.
I never engaged with your analogy because it’s bad and I’m not engaging with it now. Why not just talk to me about the things I said instead of making weird comparisons that are super obviously set ups?
I explained in detail how the claim that Chinese people can’t talk about tiannamen square is sinophobic. Why not tell me what sticks in your craw about it instead of trying to make a bunch of weird analogies?
Leftist using idpol to attempt to defend authoritarian regimes certainly get "stuck in my craw" as you say. "Uh actually it's racist to say mean things about China because its government is made of Chinese people". Fuck outta here with that liberal idpol bullshit. And fuck the CCP for trying to ban and discourage discussion about TS or memorials of it.
It's indistinguishable from the liberals saying "uh actually its antisemitic to say mean things about Israel because its government is made of Jewish people." They can also fuck outta here with that idpol bullshit.
What the fuck does the distance between two countries have to do with this? Can we not compare China to America or any other country outside of Asia? Are there special rules for governments in Asia? Does the history of China somehow exempt their actions from criticism? Do governments made up of people who have historically faced racism get a hall pass because it would be racist to be mean to them? If your government does a bad thing, I will call it out. Whether in NA, Europe, Asia, or anywhere.
I have tried engaging with your "points" in every response and for some reason you keep failing to provide evidence that it is false or a good argument for why it would be racist. Liberal idpol isn't an argument I or anyone should accept and I have a feeling you reject it in most other contexts. Being an oppressed minority doesn't exempt you or your government from criticism of your actions.
The fundamental differences between Chinese and Israeli history even when examined across the same timeframe make the comparison in terms of discrimination and racism facile at best and a purposefully misleading tactic at worst.
The reason I refuse to engage with your absurd comparison is because it’s such a stretch as to be impossible to reasonably tie back to the point we were talking about.
It’s a waste of time and I’m not interested in that.
It would also be cool if you didn’t just put words in my mouth and argue against them.
I made a bunch of posts in reply to you, why not respond to the things I said instead of some stuff you’re thinking about?
The fundamental differences between Chinese and Israeli history even when examined across the same timeframe make the comparison in terms of discrimination and racism facile at best and a purposefully misleading tactic at worst.
Do you want to expand on those differences at all or just gesture vaguely at them? It's not misleading to compare two countries against each other just because they have different histories. All countries have different histories from each other. If country A is doing a shitty thing they should be called out for it. If country B is doing a shitty thing they should be called out for it. The history and race of the people who make up the government does nothing to change the math here.
The reason I refuse to engage with your absurd comparison is because it’s such a stretch as to be impossible to reasonably tie back to the point we were talking about.
Man, if only I had explained over and over using identical language to relate the actions of those two countries. Do you understand what an analogy is? Of course they don't line up exactly because they are different! You can't do an analogy with identical things! The whole point was that the reasoning you are using to excuse the CCP is exactly the same as liberals use to excuse the Israeli government. You can "but it's different because reasons" if you want, you are just showing that you have no consistent framework to evaluate the actions of governments.
It would also be cool if you didn’t just put words in my mouth and argue against them.
I made a bunch of posts in reply to you, why not respond to the things I said instead of some stuff you’re thinking about?
Give me one example of me responding to something you didn't say or imply in what you wrote.
It would be cool if you actually provided any evidence or a substantiation of your claims even once. I guess quoting your exact words and responding to them is just putting words in your mouth! Maybe if you ever answered a single question I wouldn't have to assume your position on something. If you don't want to be misunderstood, maybe stop dodging questions.
Maybe you can help clear this up: is criticism of any government equivalent to criticism of its people? You argued that the government of China is made up of Chinese people which is a clear attempt to equate those things. After all, if it wasn't why would you have made that claim? Why would you feel the need to state the obvious unless you were trying to make a point related to my question?
And this one too: Is it ever racist to call out the bad actions of any government? If so, how could you ever criticize any country for its bad actions?
Maybe this one: How is this not just liberal idpol bullshit? What it really feels like is an attempt to use idpol to protect an authoritarian government from criticism. It feels like grasping at straws for any shield you could use to protect a government by foiling the racism its people have faced. As I've said before, sinophobic exists, but you don't get to point to valid criticism of the actions of China'a government as an example of that. That attempted connection is exactly the idpol shield bullshit I'm calling out.
And, just on a personal note, it also "gets stuck in my craw" when people who are supposed to be arguing for a better system for everyone bend-over backwards and tie themselves in knots trying to protect authoritarians who wear red. Any government that did what the CCP did both at TS and with the information surrounding it since can entirely get fucked. That says nothing at all about the people of China who are not their government by the way.
Are you going to provide a single piece of evidence showing that it's false to say " the Chinese government doesn't allow people to freely talk about TS or hold memorials for it"? Are you going to offer any logical reason why it would be racist to say "the CCP doesn't allow people to freely talk about TS or hold memorials for it" besides your liberal idpol?
I don’t need to explain how precisely the history of Israel and the history of China are wildly different such that comparisons between Sinophobia and antisemitism with regard to the government versus the people are so inconclusive as to be useless.
I can just say it and the baseline expectation that you, a person who hasn’t said “I’m still learning basic geography and world history”, will recognize and understand why precludes any need for a long winded explanation.
So you chose "just gesture vaguely" then. It's disappointing but not surprising. After all, it's all you've been doing this whole time.
It also appears that you chose not to provide any evidence at all, in this entire multi-day conversation, that the original claim is false.
It also appears that you chose not to provide any reason why it would be racist other than the liberal idpol you keep going back to. You haven't even tried to claim it's not idpol, just that it's not "fair" to the CCP to judge them by the same rules I do every government. Do you know what that kind of thinking is called when you apply it to people? Bigotry of low expectations.
Why should they get special treatment? Why do their improprieties get dismissed while others don't?
Why is it so hard for you to justify anything you say? It wasn't hard for me to provide a HRW article specifically about how the Chinese government censors and discourages discussion about the events of TS. It's not hard for me to explain my consistent framework for understanding and criticizing the actions of a government. Why is defending your position so difficult for you? Do you not have any evidence to support the "false" narrative you've been pushing this whole time? Do you not have a consistent framework that you use to evaluate the actions of any and all governments regardless of the type of people that make up that government? Why should I, you, or anyone hold China to a different standard than Israel, Kenya, America, or any other country? You do see how giving them a pass because the people who make up the government are one specific race is racist, right?
It would be just as racist to excuse the Israeli government for it's actions just because the people who make it up are Jewish, it would be just as racist to excuse the actions of the Kenyan government just because the people who make it up are black, and it would be just as racist to excuse the actions of America because the people who make it up are predominantly white.
Your argument, steel-manned into a syllogism, is:
P1) Making a claim related to the actions of a government that is both false, and correlates to racist claims about the predominant people-group of that country is racist.
P2) The claim that the government of China does not allow people to freely discuss the events of TS or hold memorial events for TS is both false and correlates to racist claims about Chinese people.
C) It is racist to say that the government of China does not allow people to freely discuss the events of TS or hold memorial events for TS.
Congratulations! It is a logically valid argument! But, you have not demonstrated it to be sound. I reject both premises for lack of supporting evidence.
P1 is what most of our discussion has been about. I reject it because people == government. Even if the attacks against the CCP were rooted in racism, systems don't have a race or personhood, governments don't have a race or personhood. Systems deserve no respect unless it is earned and have no value outside of what they do to improve people's lives. Demonstrate to me why I should hold any government at all to be inherently deserving of respect in the same way that people are.
P2 has two things you would need to prove. Even if I grant that it is correlated to racist claims, you'd still have to demonstrate it is false. Something you've made no effort to do this entire time and appear to have dropped entirely since you haven't even attempted to claim it's false in the last few replies.
The conclusion is only demonstrated to be true when the argument is shown to be valid in structure (Hooray! It is) and sound (something you've yet to demonstrate even though I've been asking for it since we started this conversation). You can still believe it if you want, but you are, by definition, being irrational about it. In particular, I'd recommend looking up special pleading.
Again, this is your attempt to give special treatment to this specific authoritarian government, presumably because you think they are some kind of vanguard for an ideology you like. If we can't call out the actions of countries that are ostensibly "on our side" as leftists then we have already lost. No government, whether capitalist or anything else, has the right to deny basic human rights. To say otherwise is an acceptance that we must sacrifice human rights to move towards a better system. I fundamentally reject that kind of thinking, that kind of giving up. A better system is only worth fighting for if it makes people's lives better, rights and all.
China is really big, Israel is really small. China has a lot of people, Israel has very few. China has a long history that stretches back millennia, Israel was formed after ww2. China was an imperial holding of several different states, had its people taken in chattel slavery and gained independence and prosperity during the 20th century. Israel is a European settler state.
They’re wildly different and suggesting that Sinophobia and antisemitism can be compared is silly but suggesting that I’m engaging in vague handwaving is even sillier. I expected that anyone would be able to see clearly how they’re unique and that comparison would raise more questions than it purports to settle.
If you reply, why not reply to just this post instead of writing a whole book putting words in my mouth and arguing against them. Just trying to save you some time.