free_casc [comrade/them] @ free_casc @hexbear.net

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Joined

8 mo. ago

Unless you can easily infiltrate leadership, there's not much you can do. Libs generally aren't going to be swayed if their leadership isn't on board.

In small orgs, this is easier than you probably expect. As soon as they use the word "socialism" (to mean Scandinavian social democracy) you're able to be the coolest and most knowledgeable socialist in the room cause you've read theory etc. The key is to be polite even if they're being annoyingly lib, but at that point you're golden.

Understanding class struggle tends to make excellent leaders and even liberals can see that if you take the opportunity to get results. At that point the goal is to educate your peers and build the org, eventually developing a relationship with our even cooler comrades over at PSL (or some such).

Remember these people aren't liberal establishment adherents or else they'd be Democrats. They're probably undereducated potential DemSocs (assuming they're privileged nerds who want to do non-duopoly electoral politics). If that's your style, go for it. If you're a direct action person or more outright revolutionary, obviously not the best fit.

If this group ever were to gain traction in CA I certainly HOPE to see a couple of Hexbearians in leadership.

Depends on a lot of things, obviously this person is revealing their ignorance to you in an obvious way. You know more than them.

As far as how to respond and communicate any further, many questions come to mind:

• Is this a person you are obligated to have a continued relationship with?
• is this a person who you want to have a continued relationship with?
• Is there a power dynamic on your relationship with this person?
• Do you think they would be hostile if any particular topics were to come up?
• Does this person have a any position of implicit or explicit social or political power/influence?

These answers would all influence my response, but I don't particularly enjoy engaging with people who's understanding of the world is so misaligned from mine that I usually just move on as quickly as possible.

I don't wish to leave my comrades in red states exposed directly to the fascist US, but at the same time id like to be able to build a safe, equitable, and affordable place for them to move to.

If Hexbear has a culture problem it's poor communication and a seeping anticipation that the person you argue with is a latent fash.

"Latent fash" give me a break.

Their position is being called "ULTRALEFT". Agree or disagree, nobody has ever implied that ultra-leftism is fascist adjacent. I would NEVER imply that about a member of our community and I'm offended at the implication that I would ever do so.

OP is not suggesting that the protests are effective at anything, but that it is an opportunity for those of us who want to make some people effective. I fully agree with u/jack that there are tons of queer people who are stoked to get educated, and they know for a fact that these protests don't achieve anything and they love to be given an answer.

This is like 10% of the people there, ran into a ton of empty liberalism, but 10% of 40k is far more people than my group of 5 could possibly talk to anyway. If we can get just 5% of our contacts converted into canvassers for the next event, that will more than double the size of the group (of protest canvassers, not the org as a whole). Exponential growth!

If we dig in and make personal phone calls and contacts with the couple hundred sign ups we got, the retention will be much higher than 5%! These people are now part of an org where they can develop their knowledge and skills, and have the opportunity to become true comrades who are ready to hop into PSL or something like that.

Yes that's the same position that OP bumped into in a previous thread as well. That is what's being addressed in this post. It sucks to put in some work and come back to our community and be presented with that feedback from those we look to as comrades. As you can see from the thread, we aren't the only two who are frustrated by this, and we have an opportunity to address it now.

As hardcore Marxist communists socialists, sometimes it is the materially correct move to win credibility by developing a social democratic party and government. I think our history has led to a lot of "Bernie-burnout" now that it's been 5 years, but it's time to reject that nihilism and throw support behind Zohran and build on that, instead of being "too cool for school".

It's basically the same as the smug Liberal leadership who want your vote, but if you approach them for a deeper discussion, or to get more involved, you get an empty smile and nod cause they "know more about how things actually work than this 'socialist'".

The "ultra left " position on here is basically the same. You DO know more than the liberals and socdems, but how tf does it look when you stand off and watch, and then be like "yeah you liberals don't know what you're doing, try harder next time". Dive tf in and take charge, YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEM. You won't co-opt your local 50501 or whatever, but pulling a significant portion of them into a socialist faction and developing that into an independent group (or shove them into DSA, or into PSL, or ???) is a reasonable goal.

The way it reads sometimes is that people want to be a disciplined member of "the Bolshevik Party" or something, but the Bolsheviks were a faction of the Russian Social Democratic Party!! (I don't think our comrades literally think this or don't know the history, just a vibe I pick up on). If we want to emulate and adapt material conditions of successful revolutions, a proven move is to have a strong social-democratic movement. Then you continue your work from there (often internal to the party).

If you went to the protest, did some canvassing/organizing work, and posted about it here later in the day, you'd know exactly where OP is coming from. I know because I did the same thing, but didn't have enough fury to bang out 7 paragraphs about it.

It's important to call out this ultraleft position in our community to invite our comrades to reflect and develop a different perspective.

I'm not talking to them about communism directly, I'm talking to them about an org that will get them in an environment where if they they rip off a take from Hasan's stream it would be considered "moderate". That's not a bad place for people who are genuinely ready to make something happen, but don't have a deep political education.

It's extremely cringe to hear "what do we want?? ABUNDANCE!" but I power through it

I've done both. I'm correct on this one, sorry.

Yeah but it's extremely fucking ripe for canvassing something or anything cool. A lot of people out there are correctly pissed off, and are even vaguely aware that the 50501 stuff doesn't take them anywhere.

You walk up: "what are we doing here though? Like I'm just as anti-trump as you are, but are we trying to impeach him again or something? Didn't work the last time, and even if you got him out then it's JD in office (yay?)

What our community needs is [org or PSL or something]. you should sign here and come to our meetings and start working aggressively with us to improve our community. We'll do it right in front of Trump's face! If you think about it, that's an even louder message than this protest!"

No, I currently work with my union who has a lot of DSA-adjacent type stuff going on. Most of this is just online and IRL yapping, just to get the juices flowing in people who have a left-of-liberal mindset.

I might be down to have more specific conversations with people who have an established account on here (like you), so DM if you'd like to carry that on a bit.

I don't think revolution will happen in the imperial core, but we can fight for social democracy and force the federal government to shut it down. It would be a great experience for liberals to see their electoral movement get shut down on their faces. Those are the circumstances under which people will shift left into joining an outright socialist org (perhaps a party?) that has a regional focus. I hope to be in the mix when that happens ofc (maybe I'll see you there??)

Let's do it!

Cause we are still chock fucking full of liberals who are barely ready to fight for fucking anything (including basic social democratic reforms that they already believe in). Theyre coming around to "the illegitimate colonizers of the United States government have nothing to offer you and never will, so we might as well focus on the illegitimate colonizer state governments which at least offer a smaller playing field for us to actually do a couple things to stabilize ourselves with some succdem shit" type of thinking.

If we can rouse some real grassroots direct democratic support for some succdem shit, then the US will be forced to crush it and heighten internal tensions, or let it slide and the West coast might actually start to believe a better future is possible.

The average west coaster has views to the left of the Democratic party at both the state and national levels. Objective right now is to make that apparent, and jdpon don is doing a lot to help that along. "Hey CA! if the feds are actually going to cut all of your federal funding, why TF are you sending them 30% to get nothing in return?"

I already know that there are Cascadia state agencies that are preparing to reject the Trump admin funding that comes loaded with "you must cooperate with ICE" and "you must hollow out your DEI completely" strings attached. Looking forward to the US weakening its own taxation authority, cause it releases some obvious fucking questions, even for liberals! MSM will have a very challenging time trying to spin that narrative if it takes root among "progressive liberals".

Anyway, the ingredients are there, we just need to turn up the stove this summer and get it simmering. If Dems lose in 28, "West coast independence" will be a viewpoint at the fringes of the mainstream in 2030. Won't be any more controversial that "yeah I'm a Bernie fan, off if you think it's 'unrealistic' or whatever".

More and more people are saying it!

This is all factually correct, but I hope Californian comrades are talking to their local liberals about this stuff. "Normie" types don't like what's going on and are down to think about what life would look like without Trump in the picture.

"Yeah if they cut all federal funding, then why are we paying ~30% as a state to the US? Let's just stop, what's the worst that could happen?"

This has never been in the media before so you can finally kick of an actual political conversation that has very few existing brainworms.

Maybe in a decade "West coast secessionist" viewpoints have a space in the conversation, although at the fringe of the mainstream (thinking along the lines of "alt-right"). This sort of internal tension is bad for the empire and good for the global south. I think socialists should be advocating for it. We know that the Democratic voter base, and even many Republican voters are to the left of the Democratic Party on a lot of social issues. Weakening the DNC means we could actually get some socdem shit done while things are unstable and on decline.

Ideals don't drive the wheels of history, but they do steer them. As you said, this is not something that is practical materially, but on the ideological battlefield, we need to wield it as a rallying point for something to the left of neoliberalism. If everything goes well, you'd probably get the West coast to be another Canada tbh. Maybe would even make sense to annex in to Canada?

Welcome home, comrade!

Fuck it, it would take like 5% effort to win the libs over to "Cascadia, but pretty much a SAR/vassal to Canada" and even though a full "peoples republic of cascadia" would be much cooler, I'd rather be solving Canadian problems than American problems atp

• 22/hr is fine if you're cool with a lower end apartment or roommate(s). Seattle is more expensive.
• Cities are full of liberals with some leftist presence. Seattle has had Sawant for several years, Portland just got a bunch of DSAers on their newly chartered council. Most young-ish progressive people are like "let's join Canada!". There is a growing movement for a statewide Universal Healthcare plan (some potential good news, for once).
• The nature is excellent, no matter what type you prefer (except warm tropical beaches ofc). From Eugene you're an hour or two from the scenic McKenzie River, or the coast (Oregon Dunes where Frank Herbert was inspired while writing Dune). Big trees everywhere.
• It's white af. Plenty of racist history to get into against the Inidigenous, Chinese, black people, etc....
• Rural areas are often still very racist. Passing through most places shouldn't be a problem for PoC, but Baker City (and other places that are basically idaho), and small towns should have their guard up. Ashland, Eugene, Silverton, and Bend are all liberal for their size. Corvallis maybe too, it's a college town so tis fine, just maybe not as disproportionate as the others.
• Portland is a world class food city if that's something you're into. Seattle has more sights if you manage to make the trip up there. Vancouver feels like an actual first world city, too bad you can afford to live there, but it's a nice weekend visit as well. Probably more of an after-college trip though.