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2d ago

Feddit.org admins respond to criticism regarding pro-Israel stance

Feddit.org admins have responded to the recent controversy about the pro-Israel censorship on !europe@feddit.org and elsewhere on their instance. I thought I'd repost it here for greater visibility (since it's posted in a mainly German language comm). Also, there's a fair bit of comment removal going on in there, and the contents are not being shown in the modlog, so it's a bit hard to tell what's being removed and how it's affecting the discussion.

TLDR: They stand fully behind the mods of !europe@feddit.org and their actions (Edit: Because the law, or at least the way the law is being enforced, says they have to)

!Europe@feddit.org mods have also spoken up: https://lemsha.re/feddit.org/post/12550375 (https://feddit.org/post/12550375). Their stance seems to be "We live in Germany, and we don't want the cops breaking down our door. Here's some examples". And that's totally reasonable, I get that and if I lived under that law I'd be behaving the same way. The question then is, should the biggest europe-centric comm be hosted and modded in such a way that criticism about one of Europe's most powerful nations isn't allowed?

Alternative Europe-centric comm, if you're looking for something censorship-free: !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com

You can find their post here: https://lemsha.re/feddit.org/post/12529640 (https://feddit.org/post/12529640)

Previous post about their behaviour: https://lemsha.re/sh.itjust.works/post/37918115 (https://sh.itjust.works/post/37918115)

@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com, let me know if this is outside the boundaries of this comm and I'll move it elsewhere. I'm mainly posting here as a follow up to the previous post.

Section 130 Incitement of masses

Some further links, mostly in German:

In this instance, we fully support the moderators of !europe@feddit.org to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.

One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.

We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.

This includes content such as this post by @Deceptichum@quokk.au, who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism. This person also seems to be the admin of the instance quokk.au, or at least to have good relations to the admin, since we received a censure on Fediseer from quokk.au around the same time, in which we are being accused of being Zionists and Nazis, and @Deceptichum@quokk.au has suggested [to defederate quokk.au from us].

If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations. quokk.au is a relatively small instance with only a few local users, which tried to build an alternative news community that is not on one of the “big” instances. Unfortunately, this community also seems to be a poor alternative if this is how their admin typically acts.

:::

102 comments

I'm going to let this up, since it might affect future posts in YPTB. But I think we need some sort of [tag] to assign to these posts to make them easily findable in the comm. It can't be [meta] since that should be about comm-internals. Any ideas?
- [INPOL] or [Instance Policy]?
- [Instance]?
  Since it looks related to the jurisdiction of a server and not a community
  
  Hm, probably something that can encompass both 3rd party instance and comm matters
- [Discussion] or [General]? Anything that's not about specific incidents.
  
  I feel this is more of a topic on the moderation practices of a different comm, should have a more specific tag. [comm meta] or [comm policies] perhaps
- Politics and legal?
- I suggest anything re mods or admins of feddit should be tagged [Arrogant_Kuntz]

Just because they speak German doesn't mean their servers have to be hosted in Germany
I rather see a fundraising effort and a temporary lock on Comms related to politics just to fix this.
They doubled down, so I don't expect this happening, I just hope it is shunned and defederated, just like Lemmy was meant to be used.
- They live in Germany, and are subject to its laws, regardless of where the server is hosted.
  
  By that logic they should defederate from all of Lemmy

I saw this the other day and in that time I immediately deleted my account on Feddit.org. I'm not going to associate myself with this server if they are going to uphold and support Zionism. I don't care if it is for German law or not. Also their whining and complaining about defederation is laughable and makes them seem more petty than lemmy.ml, who didn't whine and complain and threaten counter defederation when they got blocked by any of these other servers.
\ This is a historic moment because it's the first time that a server I've joined has ended up becoming one of the few servers I actively work to embargo however I feasibly can.

if i were feddit.org i would probably be asking everyone to migrate to another instance
- Again?!

I don't think they realise I can't see any messages from them as we de-federated days ago. As for the record, I am not @Deceptichum but I rarely use Lemmy and trust their input here and what they've shown me is validation enough.
The fact that Feddit.org is more upset about the comparison to Nazi's than they are for allowing genocide deniers to exist on their instance is reason enough for our position to continue. If Feddit.org can show serious systematic changes in how it deals with its hate speech problem, we may consider changing our stance in the future.
- It is only hate speech if the Israeli genocide is questioned in any matter not approved by the clown German regime 🤡

I had some completely unrelated issue with those mods. But it led to me abandoning and blocking that community.
Being a mod is not easy. No everyone is fit for it. I'm bot specially harsh as I, myself, am not fitted to be a mod.
There's not shame in stepping back if things got out of hand. If things are going so complicated, specially with severe legal issues involved, and potentially a lot of people not happy with the way they do things, maybe is better just to stop and let others try to mod an EuropeanCentric community.
I'm going to go and try !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com I've always felt great affinity with how decisions are made in this instance, so I'm hopeful.

I’ve added feddit.org to my personal instance block

TLDR - We were just following orders.
- Germans gonna german.

I blocked their instance. I did comment on that post, and the replies weren’t worth responding to. They can argue the granular details of what Zionism is, and is not—I don’t care. I could be factually incorrect in my replies (I am human and capable of error) but I still stand by them. At the end of the day, it’s not worth the time and effort to engage any further with them.
I’m going to get back to the leftist memes and shitposts, just as god intended.
I still stand firmly with the people of Palestine, and hope to be able to support them further from here on out. I don’t have any extra money to donate, nor do I have the time to be able to go out and protest (I work 3rd shift and have to sleep during the day). But I will try my best to do more.
The Palestinians deserve for their voices to be heard loud and wide. Fuck Israel, free Palestine.

So that the gist of it is that they're doubling down on the Zionist apologia and the IHRA definition of antisemitism basically. And are trying to frame all the issues as some trolls making accusations against them instead of something to consider. Good to know.
Just so everyone is aware I made a !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com community thinking this might happen. If you want a Europe community that isn't run by Zionists or an instance committed to an actively Zionist policy you should check it out.
Also IMO as much as @Deceptichum@quokk.au may cause issues, if Quokk.au wants to defederate that is their admin's decision and trying to blame another user because their admin chose to defederate is disgusting and childish. Shame on Feddit.org for acting like children on the playground calling someone else a "tattle-tale" for getting actioned by admins after being called out.
- There's already a !Europe@europe.pub
  
  I started !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com. Which is probably a better choice since europe.pub is also "commited to enforcing German law and will probably face these same issues in the future when the truth and reality inevitably disagrees with German Zionist Law.
  From europe.pub's TOS:
  Content illegal under Austrian, German, or EU laws (e.g., child exploitation, incitement to hate, or terrorism advocacy) will not be tolerated.

None of this addressed the locking of post regarding the current genocide with 0-1 posts.
They are actively removing the ability to discuss, regardless of opinion, Israel's genocide and only Israel's genocide.
- None of this addressed the locking of post regarding the current genocide with 0-1 posts.
  That was previously explained here: https://slrpnk.net/comment/15701097. I think it made things worse, but hindsight is 20/20.
  They are actively removing the ability to discuss, regardless of opinion, Israel's genocide and only Israel's genocide.
  That is true. For legal reasons, so the blame should fall on the govt of Germany, but true nonetheless
  
  This is using "for legal reasons" very broadly, too broadly and shifting any accountability away from the moderation.
  If entire country cannot be discussed "for legal reasons" on a large Europe community then should be a strong justification to move the community to somewhere that it is not a problem.
  
  so the blame should fall on the govt of Germany,
  Is that what everybody said last time? At the Hague and whatnot?

Shocking that Zionists would double down on the genocide. Just shocking!
- Unheard of even!
  Maybe we can ask the ADL if Palestine has humans worthy of life next. Surely we'll get a the default and sane answer of "What? Yes of course."

I'm personally not a fan of the legal situation, but you can't mod or admin from prison and evading a country's law is pretty hard in the long run if you live in that country.
The question then is, should the biggest europe-centric comm be hosted and modded in such a way that criticism about one of Europe’s most powerful nations isn’t allowed?
You can discuss whether this legal situation is wrong or not and whether the German government should support certain countries, though, if you don't include stuff like "you're a nazi/zionist/etc." (usually unhelpful, anyway) or "this country should be destroyed" (I don't think it's super necessary for discussing Germany, unless you also want to destroy Germany).
That said, I agree that it's probably better to move English-language discussions of that topic to a different instance; German law enforcement is pretty gung-ho on that topic and frequently breaches the law itself.
- Simping for the government is passivity. It's complacency. Hey, watch this: I want to assassinate the leader of AfD! With a bullet! To the temple!
  I steal shit, I have sex in public, I advocate for violence and I'll do it proudly. If you're not willing to go to prison for what you believe in, then you don't really believe it now do you?
  
  Good for you, but I don't think it's alright to just demand it from others, especially not in this way (like "you're a nazi if you don't go to prison").
  
  You're so based for this.
  If you’re not willing to go to prison for what you believe in, then you don’t really believe it now do you?
  Not at all. I'd rather go to prison for my ethics and morals than sell out and be a good little mindless worker drone, obeying all the laws I am told.
- Zionism is an insult to anyone who subscribes to western multi cultural model of governance but some how in Germany naming the enemy is a crime 🤡

Oh so they aren't Nazis and Zionists, they're just poor little cowards who so scared they support Nazis and Zionists.
- "We're not Nazis and Zionists, we just platform them and censor anti-fascists and anti-Zionists."
  Feddit is now one big Nazi Table.
  
  Specifically feddit.org

Dear admins of feddit,
Instead of suspending overeager mod and apologising, you have doubled down.
If you are afraid of "police knocking to your door" (which is moronic by the way), what about removing these cretinous mods and migrating the community to another instance? I suggest the one you mention in your post.

an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.
where is the evidence that the law was broken. I guess not
we fully support the moderators of europe@feddit.org icon Europe to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.
So they concede they censored it after all... Actual post for readers to review:
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/80186c3d-fad5-4003-b2be-fe3dd34701d0.png
So at least we now know that zionist censorship will be permitted on the server. People can make up their own minds on this.
This includes content such as this post by @Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar Deceptichum , who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism.
Red herring to distract from the original censorship issue and root cause of this entire drama.
As predicated, this response was done in bad faith to either cover up clown behavior ie unified front type thing for an org or because they are in fact Zionist enablers. We really can't tell as of now.
TLDR. Citation of the laws does not mean that the law was violated. They conceded original comment was censored. This is the same shit that happened with lemmy.world and luigi...
another regime front propaganda server detected: feddit.org
I don't support de-federation since i don't support unnecessary censorship but these people will need to be monitored, with time it will become obvious if they are in fact Zionist
For purposes of disclosure: i had a ran in with them last year and coped a ban for calling out German oligarchy as being nazi nepo baby heavy. pretext for censorship was "tone"

A lot of comments don't seem to understand what's the explanation, in essence they say comparing the Gaza genocide to the Nazi era, downplays the Nazi era, which is illegal in Germany. Its not about criticism of Zionism, but comparing it to the Nazis era
- in essence they say comparing the Gaza genocide to the Nazi era, downplays the Nazi era
  The underlying assumption there is that the Gaza genocide isn't as bad as the Nazi genocide, which is itself racist against Palestinians.
  In reality, they're not downplaying the Nazi genocide, but instead trying to make a point that the Gaza genocide is really really bad too.
- How does comparing one genocide to another similar genocide downplay it?
  
  Only the shoah matters dear.... Germans think that as long as they apologized to the Jews they have redeemed themselves.
  All while glossing over atrocities on eastern front because those guys deserved it
  
  If one genocide is lesser in scale or severity it can be (and has been) argued it is downplaying it.
  There are very few genocides you can directly compare to the Holocaust as its scale and speed was unprecedented even for the time.
  I'm unsure you can compare any other genocide to the Holocaust in accordance with German law.
- Completely moronic and likely to be just a daft excuse. Survivors of holocaust and Jews who actively fought nazis compared Palestinian struggle to their own.
  See example:
  https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/thirteen-holocaust-survivors-compare-zionist-policies-to-those-of-the-nazis/
- Original comment for context: https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/80186c3d-fad5-4003-b2be-fe3dd34701d0.png

Also, there’s a fair bit of comment removal going on in there, and the contents are not being shown in the modlog, so it’s a bit hard to tell what’s being removed and how it’s affecting the discussion.
this is unfortunately how lemmy currently works when it comes to instance bans. we would have to manually remove every single comment of those accounts separately for them to show up in modlog. if you look at the ages of the accounts and the names being used it should already be clear that those are all just troll accounts. if you've run across "anti yank" accounts in the past, these seem to be operated by the same person, with their only purpose being to troll by trying to stir up more shit on current drama (they seem to always be aware of the latest drama on lemmy) and frequently call americans and german genociders, not even being consistent in their own arguments.
you can see some of the original contents here:

these are all sockpuppet accounts with the same agenda of making lemmy a less desirable place.
- you can see some of the original contents here:
  Thanks, that's been more useful than anything else in helping me figure out which side to support.
  Spoiler: it's not yours.
  Removing comments saying things like "just create a secular state that respects people's right" should've been your "are we the baddies?" realization moment.
- This person created a new account just today @YouReTroll@lemmy.cafe and they're in this thread right now
  Sadly, the decentralization makes sockpuppeting easier
  
  If you see any just ping the [dbzer0] admins, we'll forward to the admin of that instance and deal with it.
  
  i'm counting at least 12 accounts registered within the last week that are participating in this. some of them just after the previous post in !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com, others newly registered within the last day.
- If you're getting banned from THIS comm / instance you're probably doing something deserving.

So they said, "Of course we need to make Nazis illegal, how can you even say that, why are you fighting for Nazis and supporting them."
And I said, "Yes but that's not how government works. Every single law that gets made is enforced by the government. Every government in history has branded the people firmly opposed to their crimes as 'terrorists,' 'hate speech,' 'dangerous extremists,' and so on. You do not have the option to only make Nazis illegal. You can either have Nazis, or else you can have no Nazis, no committed animal rights / climate activitists, no pro-Palestinian protests, and so on. The same laws that make Nazis illegal will instantly get used against all kinds of people who are trying to fight against the evils of the world. And so, Nazis need to be legal."
And they said, "Bro STFU it doesn't work that way what even is this, why the fuck are you sticking up for Nazis you are bad it's so simple."
...
It will always work out this way. Every time. You will not get to have a government which shares your ideas about the crimes of the powerful and your right to speak up about them, because the government is the powerful. The best you can hope for is a government which will allow you to say whatever the fuck you want, even if in their self-serving classification system it is "extremist hate speech which threatens us all." That, you can realistically get, and it's a very valuable thing if you can get it.
- why are you fighting for Nazis and supporting them.
  What nazis are you supporting? It sounds like these people are simply delusional.
  
  It sounds like these people are simply delusional.
  Agreed

Germany coercing people to promote genocide?!?! I'm shocked! SHOCKED!!! \s

It saddens me that people are just looking at the 'overview' (2-3 reports by 1-2 users, here at YTPB, all in a few days) instead of doing their own research. This announcement right here, includes a disingenuous 'tldr' that seems to now be pointing fingers to the instance admins on feddit.org (like, extending the accusations that fell upon c/europe moderation team).
followed the original community (!europe@feddit.org now has a fork under this instance), and I couldn't say they're zionists, nazis or anti-semites. Those who are doing it, stretching these concepts, do it with an agenda (either theirs or 'given')...
- That's funny, seeing as I purposefully kept my post neutral in tone. The TLDR is almost directly lifted from their own statement: "In this instance, we fully support the moderators of !europe@feddit.org". I made no claims or insinuations one way or another, it's weird how you're being so defensive right off the bat. My purpose for this post was to spark discussion, not condemnation.
  
  the problem is that your tldr does not take any of the explanation into account, while the previous posts were actively accusing the moderators and admins of being zionists and not understanding the reason for removal was instead the trivialization of national socialism.
- seems to now be pointing fingers to the instance admins on feddit.org
  You mean people who failed to remove the mods in question and instead doubled down on their ridiculous stance?

- Given the current problems with sockpuppets and trolls, it might be best for you to be commenting this from a more established account.
- International laws supersede local ones. Sometime doing the right thing is illegal
  Incorrect
  Correct but German's don't understand the concept of civil disobedience (not that i expect them to violate their laws but you get the idea now how we got WW2 atrocities)
  
  Correct but German’s don’t understand the concept of civil disobedience (not that i expect them to violate their laws but you get the idea now how we got WW2 atrocities)
  I don't think it's just a German thing.
  Liberal perspective: our legal system may be imperfect but its important to always follow the law, because otherwise it will lead to anarchy. A good citizen always upholds the law.
  Leftist perspective: this law is fucked up and we will do everything we can to resist and refuse compliance, even if that requires being brave. A good person never complies with unjust laws.

102 comments