The NYTimes is once again trashing the most promising mobility innovation of the 21st century
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/16133154
Link to original Tweet: https://x.com/DavidZipper/status/1795048724021862898
If a city cannot manage their bicycle traffic, how should we ever expect them to handle car traffic?
Any problems with bicycles is a simple issue of infrastructure and priority.
As a cyclist in NYC the complaint that bikes are weaving through cars is hilarious.
Of course they are. Cars are almost always stuck in traffic while bikes move faster.
I can make my 12ish mile commute in 45 minutes. Until the bridge I spend every mile of that commute passing cars.
That's all besides the point though: there shouldn't be personal passenger vehicles in NYC. Business vehicles sure. A few taxis are personal vehicles because of Uber - sure. But there should be 0 street parking and heavy restrictions on where drivers are allowed to go. We need to take back our streets.
Ahhh, I see the problem! ... The car drivers feel like fools sitting around in their enormous polluting wastes of space and resources but not going anywhere! So naturally everything good must be destroyed in the name of making the wrong thing feel better.
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. As a cyclist in NYC myself, the hate that I see bicyclists get is fucking absurd.
“That person is riding their bike in traffic! How dangerous!”
Like, motherfuckers, you’re the ones forcing us to ride in traffic. And it wouldn’t be dangerous without the car element. The danger is in the cars. A bicycle crash can hurt and cause damage, but with a helmet? You’re mostly pretty safe from deadly accidents. THE CARS ARE THE ONES CAUSING THE DANGER. Not the cyclists.
And then all this talk about congestion pricing being ridiculous. TAX THE FUCK out of them. Ban them. It’s a fucking addiction. And a crippling one. Why people take cars into the city is mind boggling. Like you said, it’s necessary, especially here, for there to be some traffic. Deliveries for businesses, cabs. That’s pretty much it. But, no. Every single road is full of parked cars, driving cars, double parked cars BLOCKING THE FUCKING BIKE LANES EVERY 100 GODDAMN FEET…it’s actual lunacy.
It’s such a bikeable city. Few hills, relatively short distances. But with cars creating so much traffic, it seems far because everyone sits in a car in stop and go traffic for 45min to get from the FiDi to the park. All these wasted resources with cops directing traffic UNDERNEATH FUNCTIONING STOPLIGHTS BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SO AGGRAVATED SITTING IN TRAFFIC THAG THEYLL ALL JUST BLOCK THE INTERSECTION BECAUSE THEYVE GONE THROUGH FIVE LIGHT CYCLES, the constant construction…it’s lunacy. There’s really no other word for it.
This is a sensitive subject for me lol clearly
"Teens are dying on bikes" - it's because of a bike of it's because of a fucking truck that weighs like 300 bikes?
Honestly it’s both. There’s shitty infrastructure combined with 2-ton passenger trucks. But you also have a society that while creating bike lanes, doesn’t create cyclists. Instead I see motorcycles driving down the bike lane, cyclists going against traffic, scooters cutting through shit like the end of world is behind them.
Really no one person is wrong, we’re kinda all wrong for not getting fucking organized.
The street doesn’t belong to anyone, it’s there to efficiently move as many people as possible, as safely as possible. That requires everyone to participate though.
, it’s there to efficiently move as many people as possible, as safely as possible.
So you are saying you are in favor of banning cars from the street too then?
we're all wrong because we're selfish pricks and there are very few consequences for our selfish actions.
if cops would enforce traffic laws you'd see a lot more compliance... but they won't.
Douches driving big trucks doesn't preclude teens from doing stupid shit on ebikes. You don't have to pick a side, you can recognize that there are multiple problems that need to be addressed.
@EatATaco @Moonrise2473 teens do stupid shit without ebikes. And them using one doesn't increase the danger to non users by much.
Cars and trucks do.
And you can recognize that there are multiple problems with different severity and need to be adressed from most severe to lowest severe.
Id say option 3. Both of the above.
People suck driving. They also suck at riding.
Frankly just like driving needs a better training/licensing system - so does bike riding.
Especially any sort of self propelled bike.
I realize this is fuck cars, but let's not pretend the biggest issues don't boil down to stupidity of people.
They also suck at riding.
I keep encountering cyclists riding against traffic, on roads with no shoulder and around blind turns. It's just about the most insane thing you can do on a bike, second only to sailing through red lights without looking. And it's people of all ages doing it, not just young people like I would expect.
Yeah, some of the e-bike circlejerk sounds like it's from people who have never been in a major city where they get used by people with no regard for others. I've nearly been run down by app delivery drivers on ebikes and mopeds turning onto the sidewalk going the wrong way down one way streets at 30+ mph, people riding both acting crazy in the bike lanes, running red lights and cutting through traffic with no regard for their own safety or anyone else's. You'll have to excuse me when I lack sympathy for the guys on souped-up ebikes doing 30mph over a blind hill with no lights or helmet that get mad and start threatening me because they had to swerve to dodge since they were riding in the wrong lane.
Some of it could be app delivery drivers struggling to make ends meet while being subject to unreasonable and dangerous metrics, along with unlivable pay. I feel for them, but their struggle to earn a living doesn't give them carte blanche to put other people's lives at risk. On the other hand, a lot of people I see riding these tricked out ebikes and mopeds are the same people I know that were riding dirt bikes on NYC streets a few years back and moaning about how misunderstood they were and how the cops are picking on them just because they want to ride 40 deep down Third Ave and do wheelies while the streets and sidewalks are full of other vehicles, cyclists and pedestrians.
I'm all for encouraging people to use other modes of transportation, but people are being assholes and demonstrating why there's going to be a need to regulate the ebike and moped industry more rigorously, and probably introduce some sort of licensing requirement to enable tracking dangerous riders and enforcing safety rules. You have people riding devices rigged up to go at highway speeds, being careless while riding and disregarding pedestrians, riding the wrong way, and just generally being reckless and putting other people at risk. This is also ignoring the issue of people being cheap and buying aftermarket batteries that cause some nasty fires.
If you're on an ebike, scooter or moped that exceeds 25mph, I don't think you have any business being in the bike lane. Yes, it's riskier for those riders to be in vehicular traffic, but even ignoring the mass of the bike, just a person's body hitting you at 30mph or more can do some serious damage. If you're riding at a massively higher speed than those around you in the same lane, you're a safety hazard to others in your lane, whether you're on a moped doing 40mph in a 15-20mph zone, or in a car doing 70mph in a 45mph zone. People still need to be held accountable for putting others at risk with dangerous behavior, too, whether it's a car driving erratically, ebikes going down one way streets the wrong way, cyclists taking blind corners at speeds that don't let them stop for pedestrians, or even just pedestrians doing stupid shit like insisting on walking in the bike lane, rather than using a perfectly good sidewalk or pedestrian path right next to them. That said, they need to be enforced across the board, not just singling out people on ebikes or cyclists, while ignoring others.
Elijah Orlandi makes deliveries for Grubhub in the evening after his 9-to-5 job.
“There are scenarios where people have the right to be upset,” said Orlandi, who lives in the Bronx and has been making e-bike deliveries for Grubhub — in addition to his 9-to-5 job — since October. He has seen e-bike riders “swerving in between cars and all that kind of stuff.” But Orlandi is also hoping for compassion. “People got to understand, we’re working,” he said. Delivery apps, he noted, keep track of how quickly workers make their drop-offs — and ding them if they take too long. “Sometimes you’ll be going somewhere and Grubhub will send you another order, and then no matter what you do, you’re going to be late,” he said. “So that’s why you’ll see a lot of people rushing.”
Surely the problem here this dude's e-bike. Not that people need to do gig job on top of 9-5 work day, unaffordable rent, inflation, and exploitative gig economy platform
Yeah I was reading that and I’m like… ok so what does this have to do with an e-bike? This is just a condemnation of the gig economy. One can only assume that they are implying that none of these problems would exist if this dude was using a car, but they’d actually be 10x worse if he was
How dare he zip past the congestion with a low-density vehicle instead of contributing to it, wasting fuel (whatever type) and making things worse for everyone like a proper, respectable, carbrained citizen?
Almost as bad as subways, I tell you! Those bastards take a whole chunk of people past the traffic at once, the audacity 😤
Sarcasm aside, I do think people need this angle pointed out to them: Low-density transport options for those where they make sense help those for whom it doesn't. The more short-range traffic happens on bikes, in busses and (light) rail, the more space there will be on the streets.
First New York Times came for the Palestinians. And I didn't speak out because I was not a Palestinian.
Then they came for my e-bike and there was no one left to speak for me.
The NYTimes has always been the US empire's paper of record. You won't find a US-backed war or coup they didn't support.
Truly a filthy rag since at least the leadup to WWII.
I wonder if it has anything g to do with all the advertisements for luxury cars in every edition of the paper... :-/ Cheers for the post.
Or oil companies selling gas.
Listen here now I've played simcity and good transport is the backbone of a strong economy.
With ICE, you control the population by controlling the oil. Like rest of the world has to eat up price raise without much retaliation, what else you're going to do, you have to work and you depend on oil. But since China is the major producer of batteries and EVs, the nations that dictate the policies are losing that control.
So US does what it does best, propagandize the masses. Mass produced solar panels are bad, EVs are unreliable, e-bikes are a menace.
The world powers will turn the world to ruins if it serves their interests.
To be fair electric cars are still cars. Fuck them.
They really aren't that much better for the planet compared to ICE and when compared to transit or active transport they really are the least effecient "green" option.
Its not just about reducing carbon, we should be trying to reduce overall energy usage and focus on effecient systems.
Everyone driving their electric SUV to park in a sea of pavement is not effecient land or energy use.
God how do you get out of bed every day.
A lot of people are able to recognize the shit side of the world and be strong enough to not fall apart because of it.
America held the printing press invention dear to the heart. It was the best way to manufacture and distribute propaganda.
News is a profit driven industry and it's written by the sponsors. This is as true for NYT as it is for Alex Jones. The sooner people realize this the sooner we can dig ourselves out of this whole mess.
Ebikes will be banned in most of North America in 5 years, calling it now :/
I don't know what this is about, but it reminds me of the constant ev-bashing in most major newspapers over the last two decades (since the beginning). I believe it's oil money in the press, and definitely had effect on the overall conversation, especially discouraging small evs, but not clear effect on policy. It just keeps consumers from adopting.
Car manufacturers and oil producers have a vested interest in making bikes, ev bikes in particular, illegal.
Basically the same playbook that Henry Ford used to make cities less walkable.
Those articles pulled a lot of weight because my province over the last few years have removed all purchase incentives for EVs. The gov used to give up to $10k CAD rebates for electric vehicles. They recently got rid of it and after the election next year, they’ll fully get rid of all remaining incentives.
We can still build our own!
the fuck? how do you hate on e-bikes but are okay with e-cars?
Because they're e-diots
E-diots, I like that term
The companies hawking e-cars have much larger advertising accounts with NYT than those hawking e-bikes.
In Rio de Janeiro happened something like this. An old woman and a children were walking on the bike lane and an ebike crashed to them and killed the old woman. A city councilperson hurried up to make a law banning e-bikes from bike lanes, saying that they should use the car infrastructure, but the Mayor vetoed the project.
This isn't particularly plausible. Searching for news about it, I see stories about a collapsing bike lane and a story about an ebike operator being killed by a truck (this woman was Brazilian but the accident happened in Ireland). Nothing about an ebike killing someone else.
They don't really go that fast. Anyone can be knocked over and killed by basically any vehicle (including a regular bike) if you land incorrectly, but ebikes are about as dangerous as regular bikes to pedestrians.
The article the screenshot is from links directly to a case of an elderly woman being hit and killed by someone on an ebike. It also links to a story of another woman has suffered brain damage and lasting effects after being hit by someone riding a moped.
They don’t really go that fast.
You really can't say that, categorically. Part of the issue is that when people speak about e-bikes, there is a huge range of vehicles that fall under that category. You have ebikes that hit 80mph these days, yet generally are sold no differently in terms of registration or licensing than a pedal assist bike that cuts out the engine at 20mph or if the rider stops pedaling. A lot of these delivery drivers in NYC are riding illegal electric mopeds that go at high speeds and weigh much more than a normal bike, but are sold as though they were equal to an e-bike that goes much slower.
Even a lighter e-bike, like a Citi Bike, weighs about 45lbs. That's 15lbs heavier than my regular bike, which will make a difference if you get hit at higher speeds. Something like the Surron bike mentioned in that video is advertized as street legal, but according to their specs page, their bikes clock in at 47 kg, or 103.6 lbs! Sure, that guy could be riding a slightly different model, but there is an absolutely massive difference for a pedestrian between getting hit by a 150 lbs rider on a 30 lbs bike doing 20 mph, and getting hit by the same rider on a bike that's three times as heavy and going at four times the speed. Heck, there's a big difference for the rider themselves if they just eat it on their own.
I think you're right and I confused the argument the counselperson gave for the law to something that actually happened.
Genocide deniers and enablers also happen to be in the pocket of the regime that wants us all wasting our lives in traffic when we are not working to make them rich.
Yeeeep
I love my e-bike.
I love that you ride one! Stay safe ❤️
Thank you kind person of the Internet. I will do my best.
Having an ebike in New York is what having a car in any other major American city is supposed to work like (but can’t because car-centric infrastructure is terrible city design)
Nothing is more than 30 minutes from me. There’s parking everywhere. Only requires low cost infrastructure to be usable. Traffic jams are infrequent and short-lived. Ownership and fuel costs are low. Environmentally friendly. Quiet. Great for recreation. Is very safe for the user and pedestrians.
Is bike theft not a major issue in New York It's the main thing keeping me from getting one. Bikes get stolen so frequently that I prefer my 100 buck bike, much more easily replaced.
Not as major as most news outlets make it out to be. I try not to lock my bike outside if I can avoid it, but I can lock it indoors both at work and at my apartment
You can actually buy bike insurance if you are particularly worried. And some home/renters insurance includes protection against bike theft.
Whether the yearly cost of it plus the deductible ends up being higher than just replacing it is the gamble you always take with insurance, however.
I live in São Paulo and have everything on a 30-40 minutes ride, but because my bike insurance demands a proper bike rack or the policy is null, I have a lot of problems with the parking part. Like supermarkets, bakeries, pharmacies and others always have 2-5 cars parking space, but is extremely rare finding one of those with a proper bike rack.
There's definitely no bias at all here /s
The voice of fascism.
Nothing fascist about this, the article is just plain stupid and pushing a shitty agenda. Calling everything fascist removes the word's meaning and impact.
The NYT is a fascist rag for so many god damn reasons, this is just another one.
But is it..... enshittification????
No NYC is a nightmare because it's NYC
God forbid people want to make their city better.
These bastards!
Mass transit probaby has less overhead
Compared to? Cars? Yes, absolutely.
To e-bikes? Hard to tell, but it's easier to roll out e-bikes and repaint traffic lines then it is to install new track and e-bikes aren't tied to a schedule.
NYC's cyclists (of whom I know many) need to follow traffic laws.
Those laws are there because people need to act predictably on the street. When a red light becomes a mere suggestion for cyclists, motorists eventually start treating them as such as well. Monkey see, monkey do.
...and getting t-boned by some douchecanoe driving a car when you have the light is commonly fatal for a cyclist.
There was an uptick in utterly shitty driving from 2019 onwards in NYC, and the police stopped all enforcement actions even in egregious cases... then the roads became, and largely remain, a free-for-all. I've seen some attempts recently to start clearing the mess up, but too often NYPD are ignoring these dangerous road users... or hiding their license plates and being offenders themselves.
...and this is before you're fighting for space in a the bikelane with some drunk+stoned asshole on a moped.
I'm fully in favor of delivery professionals being required to have a license and display it at all times when on the clock. They should also be required to have specific insurance, and a highly visible personal identifier when working. They should also get automatic Union representation and a living wage.
Anything more powerful than a class-C e-bike should have a license plate, and if not it gets taken and destroyed, or auctioned to a more responsible owner. Sales of these vehicles without a registration needs to be illegal. Anything more powerful than a class-C e-bike found in a bike lane should be impounded on the spot. Running a stop sign or a red light should get you a ticket, regardless of what wheels you're on. Going the wrong way down a one way street should get you a ticket.
It doesn't help that NYC doesn't have the space and largely practices "maximum-conflict" street design... but that's just the slow, shitty entropic action of self-serving interests pushing communities around, and they react very slowly. It takes (usually multiple) fatalities for anyone to wake up and actually do anything about it.
Also wear a damned helmet.
The solution for large scale behavioral problems isn't telling loads of people to do better, it's systemic change, and in this case that means infrastructure for safe biking. That includes traffic calming measures, separated and protected bike lanes, regulation to reign in vehicle sizes and weight, etc.
The OP is correct wrt powerful e bikes sharing space with pedestrians and normal bikes.
They are a different beast, heavier and noisier. They have much higher speed limit, and require less effort (some models need no pedal power) to travel. This, alongside the rise of delivery services, encourages people to overspeed (more than 20mph).
15mph is roughly the limit of what makes bicycles safe for mixing with pedestrians, but beyond this speed, they aren't that different from a motorbike in terms of road design considerations.
At least they are better than cars and SUVs
This is a classic for a reason. We make everything as inhospitable for bikers as we can and when they work around it somehow they're the bad guys
Do you ever wonder why you never see videos of people flying down the street and weaving through traffic in the Netherlands?
Infrastructure is your answer.
Respect and discipline AND infrastructure is the answer.
I haven't read the articles because there is no link to them, but in my city there would be very valid reason for complaint about ebikes because the same sociopath tendencies that people exhibit while driving cars are moving to ebikes. These fuckers ride them like goddamned motorcycles, except whooshing right next to people on trails and sidewalks meant to be shared or in some cases, primarily used by, pedestrians.
If I were to guess the average speed of ebike riders I would say around 25 mph and you usually don't even see any pedaling.
I've learned to despise them because what's happened is that the people who don't want to deal with car problems but are too lazy to pedal have brought car-type problems to spaces that used to only be shared with bikes.
The problem is obviously with shit actors but what can we do about it? Until there are laws enforced about speeding and riding like an asshole, nothing will change. Which in my mind won't happen without articles or something else bringing it to the attention of people who don't actually deal with these assholes.
what i've learned is that I'd much rather live in this echo chamber with windows to the outside than in another echo chamber
I wonder if anything happened at NYT in the last two years; they were quite positive about e-bikes in 2020 to 2022.
I skimmed the picture first, and thought you were talking about escooters which are terrible, ebikes are great though.
Why do you think escooters are terrible?
I think that e-bikes and e-scooters are misrepresented by few a-holes who makes motorbikes from them.
Yes when you brake the law and are going 30 km/h in a bike lane you are a-hole but most of them are ok.
escooters which are terrible
That's a bit of a stretch. They aren't great, but they're still better than a car, and a lot of the disadvantage is because of poor infrastructure and lack of courtesy by a lot of e-scooter riders. One of those is easier to fix than the other.
E-bikes are way better than e-scooters, though, and I'd say e-bikes are more versatile.
There are two kinds of escooters, the rentable, and personal.
The rentable escooter are absolute shit, they are scattered over cities, making is difficult for disabled people to get by, they promote use without helmets which increase severity and frequency of accidents, they also are driven recklessly.
The personal escooters are mostly fine, people drive them less recklessly, often wear helmets and in general take better care of them.
Both types are bad in that they move people away from existing public transport lowering demand meaning that public transport gets less money which lowers the quallity and again moves people away from public transport.
Ebikes doesn't have that direct cause and affect as they mostly replace cars, ebikes also tend to have less severe accidents as the result of the combination of larger wheels with better banace, a better riding possition with a lower center of gravity again improving balance
That seems like a groundless distinction.
Because I guess pedaling is too hard for people that live in one of the flattest cities in the world.
Some people, yeah. They might have a longer distance to ride, they might have disability, or just not be that fit. There's no problem with that.
most people however, are straight up lazy.
I used to do 14 miles one way in Chicago, year 'round. (I stopped because I moved to Georgia, and now my commute involves about 2000' of elevation difference, which is likely around 4000' of elevation change.) If you're not fit, well, that's a pretty good reason to start riding then, isn't it? NYC also has a fantastic public transit system, one of, if not the best in the US, and it's readily accessible by people with disabilities. Much more so than an electric bicycle.
Washington Post.
Uhh I think you're thinking of The Washington Post.
Oh is it? Well, fuck. 🤣 NYT has been pretty one sided on certain things so I must've mixed em up
Dude fuck e-bikes too, one of my closest friends was killed on one of those things, I hate cars too (especially the panel van that killed him), but let's not pretend e-bikes are in anyway safe
If the panel van hit and killed them, it would have killed them:
Fair enough
I'm sorry about your friend but ebikes are so much safer than cars.
Can we not criticize cars and also irresponsible e-bike riders.
Both should follow traffic laws and yield to peds.
I'm sorry for your loss. It's worth considering that we are very conditioned to passive language with these events, but your friend was not "hit on his e-bike", he was killed by the van driver. He was not at fault, the van was.
lol.. in the Bay (Northern California), E-Bikes would be left abandoned on the side walks and parking lots. I never seen the organization that provides these e-bikes have someone or a team drive around and pick them up..
All I assume is that the e-bikes are used up until their battery is dead and they're left abandoned right on the spot. I assume the battery has enough life in it still to be located and picked up and placed back into their charging stations.
Edit: Wait not e-bikes, e-scooters.
You could just delete your comment when you realise it isn't actually relevant, instead of just throwing the edit on at the end.
Media praising bikes - "Look see they work"
Media criticising bikes - "Huh, would you believe the media spin right?"
First of all, that makes sense, as if the media is saying two things that conflict with another, praise the one that is backed up by urban studies and the other IS spin
Second of all, a large section of media is paid ads in disguise.
I would recommend upping your media literacy as it helps you distinguish between spin and not spin.
I am extremely in favor of bikes over cars but this commenter actually makes a valid point. I have noticed extremely shitty riding behavior on ebikes and there is no hope of any legislation to curb that behavior until we talk about it.
In any case the tweet chose to not include any links to these articles.
Oh the media often goes both ways - in this case it appears that there are some issues that need resolving. Not everyone appreciates dodging bikes mounting the sidewalk, or doing an emergency stop when cyclists dismount the pavements without clear signaling - this is a problem for everyone but the person on the bike. Cars have their own issues, and those are widely covered.
While I very much agree every media story has "spin" (be it unwarranted cynicism or blind optimism), I am fairly certain it is the same on both sides of this issue.
Your point seems to be "all good things on bikes are backed up by studies, all bad things about bikes are big oil", and that is quite simply the best validation of my post you could ever give. Thank you.
Media praising bikes - “Look at all the benefits for humanity”
Media criticising bikes - “Car brain go vroom vroom vroom!”
FTFY.
Media praising bikes - “Bike brain goes brrring brrring!”
Media criticising bikes - “Car brain go vroom vroom vroom!”
Come now, let's be fair and open minded ;)
I'm just happy there's at least one thing I agree with this community about.