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How socially conservative are China and Vietnam, and how can they realistically become more progressive?

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  • Be more specific. What do you consider "conservative"? What do you consider "progressive"?

    • By "socially progressive", I am referring to the things we usually refer to when it comes to social progress: acceptance of LGBTQ+, rights for women, anti-racism, respect for youth and elderly, etc.

      By "conservative", it would mean opposition to such advances in social progress.

      I'm not the best at wording this.

      • I can't speak for China, only Vietnam.

        LGBTQ+

        When it comes to LGBT, we are generally quite indifferent to it. It is not our jobs to interfere in other people's business. That was my impression of our social attitude towards queer people.

        Legally speaking however, our laws are still behind in some aspects, such as not yet recognizing same-sex marriage, but it does not ban it either. Same-sex couples are allowed to held symbolic weddings as well as living together under the same roof. It's just that they won't enjoy the same legal rights and obligations as required for hetero couples. But fret not, our laws are getting more and more open, it was more open in the 201X than the 200X, and it will not doubt be more open in the future.

        Women rights

        The Communist Party of Vietnam in all its time of existence has been tirelessly advance women right and gender equality. I can confidently say that right now, I can feel no social discrimination between men and women. Women occupy just as many jobs as men do. In my household, my father and my mother are equal in decision making.

        Anti-racism

        I don't think racism is relevant to Vietnam.

        But we do have ethnic minorities (I am of Nùng ethnicity, while the overwhelming majority of Vietnamese population is of Kinh). Ethnic minorities often receive favorable aids from the government in term of poverty eradication and education.

        Respect for youth and elderly

        Our culture inherits Confucian elements, and our government encourages positive traits such as filial piety while discouraging negative traits that are no longer compatible with modern time and socialism.

      • As a Chinese person, I can share my own observations from both online and real life:

        LGBTQ+ There is almost no public promotion of LGBTQ+ issues in China. LGBTQ+ individuals are not considered a mainstream group, and most people are indifferent to them. Online, many references to LGBTQ+ are just jokes or memes meant to entertain, not necessarily to mock the community. For instance, phrases like "Bro, you smell so good" are popular online jokes. In real life, if you are part of the LGBTQ+ community, it doesn't really matter to most people; everyone has their own life. However, if LGBTQ+ individuals try to date heterosexuals, it usually leads to discomfort. If a child wants to identify as LGBTQ+, it depends on their parents, and most parents do not approve. Also, since LGBTQ+ concepts are seen as coming from Western countries, some LGBTQ+ individuals who are perceived as overly admiring Western culture can face backlash. Chinese public opinion generally acknowledges heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality, but concepts like "72 genders" and "gender fluidity" are seen as incomprehensible. Phrases like "My gender is an attack helicopter, and I want to screw a tank" are commonly used to mock the plethora of gender identities in the West.

        Women's Rights As a socialist country, women's rights are well-protected in China. Prostitution is illegal (to combat human trafficking). In stable government jobs, women make up a large proportion. However, there are some peculiarities: women have maternity leave, and some declare pregnancy right after being hired to receive paid maternity leave and then resign afterward. In government jobs, some women may claim they cannot handle the workload and pass their responsibilities to male colleagues or other female colleagues, leading to a form of hidden hiring discrimination in some companies and government units.

        Anti-Racism Chinese people generally focus on a person's actions rather than their race. Discrimination tends to be based on an individual's behavior, regardless of skin color or ethnicity. Ethnic minorities in China receive preferential treatment, with special funds to promote their traditional cultures and extra points on college entrance exams. However, as the economic conditions of some minorities have become comparable to the Han majority, places like Shandong are considering abolishing these extra points. Ethnic minorities like Tibetans and Mongolians also have the option to take their college entrance exams in their native languages. During my university years, Mongolian students often joked that they didn’t ride horses to school.

        Respect for Youth and the Elderly I don't quite understand the concept of "respecting the youth." Is it similar to bowing to someone in Japan? In China, as the birthplace of Confucianism, respecting the elderly and caring for the young are considered traditional virtues and are commonly practiced in daily life. However, due to the "Peng Yu case," where a judge asked, "If you didn't knock the old person down, why did you help them up?" many people are now wary of helping fallen elderly individuals for fear of being extorted (which has happened multiple times). Such extortionists are referred to as "taking advantage of their old age."

        • I think "respecting the youth" is trying to figure out how the older generations view the younger generations.

          In the USA, there is a pretty strong current of "anybody younger than me" is always inferior, lesser, worse. So a younger person's opinion is attacked or ignored by someone who is older no matter how correct a younger person's opinion may be.

          It could be understood as, "When do the the older generations accept the younger generations as a peer?" or "When do the younger generations become accepted by the older generations as an equal?"

          • In China, there is an old saying used by the elderly to criticize the young: "I have eaten more salt than you have eaten rice." Nowadays, young people respond to stubborn elders with, "Old thing, you should have blown up your gold coins by now."“老东西，早该爆金币了” .It's like defeating a boss and getting loot.Some older people are still reasonable, and there is a consensus in China that young people are considered "energetic," "the future of China," and "the sun at eight or nine in the morning."

            In modern Chinese history, young people were the main force in revolutions. During the New Culture Movement, young Chinese fought against the rigid and dogmatic elders who adhered to "ancient teachings" and "ancestral laws." In the May Fourth Movement, students mobilized workers and the petty bourgeoisie to prevent further colonial infringement on China's sovereignty (such as the transfer of Shandong from Germany to Japan, even though China was considered a victor in World War I).《少年中国说》 "The Young China" essay from the New Culture Movement is something every Chinese middle school student learns. Publicly belittling young people can only happen in small circles; on the internet and in real life, such behavior will be ridiculed.

            If we look at it from a family perspective, unfortunately, most Chinese people believe that children should listen to their parents. Of course, extreme control over children is also criticized in China. How important a child's personal thoughts are depends on the parents.

            If you are referring to expressing political views, people may criticize each other based on differing political opinions, but they won't discriminate against you just because you are young, and there are no special privileges either.

            In terms of politics, in China, one must start from the grassroots level to enter politics. Even if you have connections, it can only speed up your promotion slightly (if too fast, unless you are very capable, you will be reported to the discipline inspection commission as there is no shortage of competitors in officialdom). Therefore, many Chinese politicians are already middle-aged or elderly because people generally believe they have more experience and stability.

            You might want to look at 《风波》"The Gale" from Lu Xun's 《呐喊》"Call to Arms" during the New Culture Movement, which might be similar to what you mentioned.

            • I have no real input in this discussion other than reading it and being fascinated. I just wanted to say that I love the phrase: the sun at eight or nine in the morning.

        • Gender fluidity has been acknowledged by most human societies going back thousands of years though. It's disappoint but slightly understandable that people in China use "helicopter" jokes, but the "I want to screw a tank" is funny AF

        • Thank you. This was very informative

        • "72 genders" is incomprehensible to me too, and I believe that it is incomprehensible and illogical to most people in the world who are not familiar with the West.

          The crux of the issue lies in the separation of the concept "gender" and "sex". Wheras "sex" is material and observable, "gender" (as defined by Western leftists[1]) is anything but. It is measured by having the person "identifies" themselves as one.

          But if a concept is not observable and not material, how is it different from a god? Should we, who adhere to dialectical materialism and scientific principals, see it as anything of worth?

          Or maybe I am wrong, maybe the fluid gender can be objectively measured as a material concept with observable effects. If you think I'm wrong, please explain.

          [1]: Western leftists are Westerners who identify themselves as leftists. They are not necessarily our comrade.

          • I dunno, I feel the need to lightly push back...

            A person telling you, "I don't feel like man", is something you can observe. A person telling you, " I don't feel like either gender" is something you can observe. A person telling you, "I feel like a woman" today but next week telling you "I feel like a man" is something that can be observed.

            • I suppose the issue might be that anyone can claim they feel anything and all we can do is take them at their word. It's easily falsifiable and therefore much harder to definitely call it an observable material concept.

              • It's easily falsifiable and therefore much harder to definitely call it an observable material concept.

                This may be a bit of a nitpick, but you have this backwards. Falsifiability is a prerequisite for any kind of hypothesis to be scientific. If a hypothesis, theory, or model is not falsifiable, what that means is it can never be shown to be wrong (false), and so it is fundamentally not scientific. And in this case, it is the difficulty (the impossibility, even) of falsifying what a person says they're feeling that puts statements like that on shaky ground, scientifically speaking. Having to take someone at their word is not "easily falsifiable," it is unfalsifiable, and that's where the problem lies. If someone says "I feel sad today" then there is virtually no way we can ever prove this statement false: hence it is unfalsifiable. However, given the understanding of that caveat we do scientific studies all the time that involve the subjectivity of a person's experience, even as a focal point. From the efficacy of depression medication to the polling done in order to sell more products/candidates, countless scientific studies still rely on people self reporting their feelings. The subjectivity just has to be recognized and factored in as part of the study.

                In short, the unfalsifiability that is inherent in dealing with human experience doesn't suddenly make it impossible to study human experience. We just have to control as best we can for things like bias in self reporting and recognizing and taking measures at eliminating reasons participants may have for saying things that aren't accurate about their experience, and including relevant error margins.

                • I agree, I don't mean to imply that it is impossible to study the human experience, far from it, you can (and should) always take one at their word when it comes to how they self report. I simply meant to say theres a significant difference between that sort of study and what we can concretely observe and experiment on in other material sciences.

            • What is "feeling like a man"? What is "feeling like a woman"? What is the biological mechanism that determine these feelings?

              I can observe a person who has near death experience telling me they met god. Should I take it as face value?

              A person telling you, “I feel like a woman” today but next week telling you “I feel like a man” is something that can be observed.

              I don't think my society is willing to accept such fickleness, even if we are willing to accept transgender.

              • Gender is a social construct often upheld by patriarchal societal standards. The being of a man or a woman comes with many societal expectations, and quite a lot of people don't agree with that. Some people go as far as to not even agree with the body they are born with. Non-binary people, for example, don't feel like they can express themselves by being merely 'man' or 'woman' and in fact chose to be none of the two or equally both. Transgender people don't agree with the gender they were born is as it does not coincide with the gender they feel like.

                Now, I only want to comment on the gender aspect as I am sure that you, master observer that you are, can acknowledge stuff like intersex people existing, who are born with both sets of genitals for example.

                Now, gender as we know it now has evolved in capitalist societies. For thousands of years the human concept of gender has been very different throughout the ages. Non binary people, for example, have been around since the beginning of mankind and have even been acknowledged by historic societies. The concept of 'man' and 'woman' is made up and should be seen as seperate from sex. Hence why some people come to the conclusion that they don't fit in with either gender, and sometimes even that their body doesn't match with who they see themselves as.

                You comparing gender identity with someone dying and claiming to see God is a bit weird as it seems to imply that you think gender and gender expression to be somewhat of a delusion. It is not a delusion. It is not the same as someone suffering from, let's say, schizophrenia seeing entities that are not real.

                Lastly, what is your society you speak of? Is it Vietnamese? As there are a lot of transgender or genderqueer Vietnamese people. They will have their own struggle against the status quo perceived notion of gender in Vietnam, just like the LGBTQ+ communities have done in the west for example.

                • Gender is a social construct often upheld by patriarchal societal standards. The being of a man or a woman comes with many societal expectations, and quite a lot of people don’t agree with that.

                  Do you mean "gender role"?

                  Patriarchal societies often have different expectations for people of different biological sex. A Confucian society would expect a man to follow the Son of Heaven and a woman to follow her father or husband. This is gender role, and gender equality means the abolishment of gender roles.

                  I don't think I can agree with conflating the concept of "gender" and "gender role".

                  Now, I only want to comment on the gender aspect as I am sure that you, master observer that you are, can acknowledge stuff like intersex people existing, who are born with both sets of genitals for example.

                  After some thought, I think I see your point. If one considers intersex a biological sex then their true gender should be separate from their sex. Is that what you were trying to convey?

                  Now, gender as we know it now has evolved in capitalist societies

                  Please tell me what the concept of gender was like in other societies. Be it Medieval Europe or Imperial China or whatever society you are familiar with.

                  Non binary people, for example, have been around since the beginning of mankind and have even been acknowledged by historic societies.

                  Please provide me documents. I may take my time to research them.

              • The difference being, If I was assigned "male" at birth and society categorized me as "boy/man" and treats me as boy/man but I don't "feel" boy/man and would like to be treated as girl/woman, what will that society do?

                Somebody talking about a near death experience with God occasionally, probably won't get them lynched, denied housing, proper and dignified medical treatment, the ability to have a romantic relationship, etc.

                A society deciding that its weird or uncomfortable to know that a hetero cis gender person marries a person who happens to be transgender, that's not being uncomfortable with "fickleness" that's drifting into bigotry territory.

              • What is feeling happy or sad? This is absurd.

                • Happiness and sadness are easy to comprehend because all humans experience it. Their biological mechanisms have also been studied and partially understood by science. "Gender feelings", not so much. Let put it this way: How can a biological male, who was never a female, know the feeling he feels is that of a woman?

                  • How does a person who was born without the ability to see, or hear, or walk, want to do any of those things?

                  • How can a biological male, who was never a female, know the feeling he feels is that of a woman?

                    How can a biological male who was never a different individual biological male, know the feeling that he feels is that of another man? He can't! He's never been another man, only the individual that he is. So he can never know that the way he feels "as a man" is anything at all like how another man might feel "as a man." However, since as a social species we have empathy we can make reasonable assumptions about how other people feel, in part based on what they say they feel, and no less so because they have different bits between their legs than if they have a different color of hair.

                    None of us can unambiguously know what it is like to be another person. This is an obvious truism. The way you're trying to use it to draw this arbitrary line between what people can know about their own feelings, but only as determined by what kind of genitalia they were born with... it's gross. And whether intended or not, bigoted. People of any and all genders can have empathy for anyone else of any and all genders. We can also know how we feel internally when society around us sees us as we feel we are, versus how we feel internally when society around us sees as as what we feel we are not. The former is good and affirming. The latter is painful and dejecting.

                    Their biological mechanisms have also been studied and partially understood by science. "Gender feelings", not so much

                    Btw, there has been scientific research on transgender issues. Famously, there was a great trove of it that was burned by the Nazis in Germany. You know those infamous book burnings? Yeah, that was transgender scientific research. Fortunately, there has been a lot of other valid scientific studies done since then, too. All of it confirming the things people in this thread have been trying to tell you, even when you call it "fickle" or insist that your society isn't empathetic enough to ever accept (which I categorically reject.)

          • Thank you for answering my question. Many Chinese people judge Western gender diversity issues based on reproductive organs, which leads to widespread misunderstandings. Additionally, when we watch international news, we often see cases where some individuals exploit gender diversity to evade legal consequences, exacerbating the negative perception of gender diversity. Because news needs to attract viewers, those who lawfully live within gender diversity are often overlooked, resulting in the stigmatization of gender diversity.

            In my opinion, the issue of gender diversity is an attempt to answer "Who am I?" This indeed falls within the realm of personal spirit. But as you know, people have subjective initiative. When someone identifies as a gender-diverse individual and takes action, their behavior can be observed and is material. Just like with God, no one has seen or touched God; God seems to exist only as a concept passed down orally and retained in people's minds. However, God's believers are real people in life, and they deeply influence the world. Historically, there were events like the Crusades, and in modern times, there are large-scale pilgrimages to holy cities and global anti-terrorism wars resulting from extreme religious beliefs. These events affect us on a material level. While God may hold no value to materialists, God holds great value to believers. Therefore, listening to believers' needs and guiding their productivity towards promoting social development is meaningful to materialists.

            In my view, your comparison of gender diversity with God is correct, as both attempt to answer the ultimate questions of "Who am I?" and "Where am I going?" This is also why strong suppression of gender diversity is bound to be harmful, as such suppression essentially denies an individual's independent personality.

            Due to 1) the ancient Chinese concept of people's livelihood, 2) the influence of the October Revolution on modern China, and 3) the deep-rooted image of the Communist Party of China in China, most Chinese people have a different perspective on leftism. They believe leftists are more inclined to be: 1) willing to eliminate poverty in a practical way (not by making empty promises), 2) honest and upright, and 3) willing to fight against social injustice, similar to Lenin's concept of the "vanguard of the proletariat." More radical individuals believe that communists and leftists abroad fighting social injustice through protests and demonstrations are somewhat "playing house." They think people should arm themselves and directly overthrow the government (which I find impractical and contrary to Lenin's "three elements of revolution"). Leftism in China is generally viewed positively, but it can be said that there are various factions, just as the Russian Revolution was divided into Bolsheviks and Mensheviks.

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