President Biden announces a series of tariffs on green energy products from China.

We can’t let stopping climate change get in the way of capitalism!
- That's protectionism, not capitalism.
  
  Tomato, tomato. The free market is a myth, there is no part of the economy that goes without manipulation. Anytime business owners can’t directly manipulate the market themselves they bribe governments to do it on their behalf.
  
  That's no true Scotsman.
  
  Ooh, good point.

These go right against our goals to increase use of solar and EVs. ☹️
- Really important for world emissions for the US specifically to transition to EVs too, considering it has the highest per capita road emissions in the world.
  
  Most of that is because we truck everything and trains only get used for extreme bulk like coal
  
  Interestingly, China and India, who were told are massive polluters, aren’t even on that list.
  
  Edit, guess I was wrong
- It does sadly. On the flip side, China seems to be trying to capture car manufacturing markets by subsidizing their producers. This would probably be a bad thing in the future if allowed. Hopefully the US government does more work on making it easier to purchase electric cars in the US(specifically the price) while also reducing the need for driving.
  
  What exactly is wrong with a country subsidizing green energy products? Not only that, but making them available cheaply to other countries?
  
  Also no US auto-manufacturer is going all in on EVs, they're all mostly building gas-guzzling oversized trucks and SUVs. US automakers intentionally killed EVs in the 90s, and hoped no other country would start building them.
  
  While true, the cost differentials go much deeper, and they affect all products & services.
  Michael Hudson: America’s Neoliberal Financialization Policy vs. China’s Industrial Socialism
- I'd rather we ensure higher standards of safety and quality for our vehicles, which are already terrifying death machines, but the hit to solar is a real step backwards.
  
  That's a cop out. Cars aren't getting registered without meeting safety requirements.

also Biden 🤡
- I assumed this one was satire, is that a real tweet?
  
  oh it's real https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1138506137697959939
- This is the top response on Twitter now.
  
  I'm surprised they haven't deleted it, but I guess that would be even more embarrassing since it's already archived.
- Trump tariffs were too small.
  
  That's right, Joe knows how to protect the interests of American oligarchs much better than that charlatan.

That's not how you ensure America leads the world in them. That's how you ensure corps feel safe not doing shit to innovate anymore. This is just another form of a bailout.
- Didn't they do the same for Japanese goods back in the day? Not sure it helped the American automotive industry.
- Yes- it's the United States
- Doesn't China subsidize what they export on top of having cheap labor? In that case a free market argument cannot really be made. The innovation in the US or elsewhere would have to be extreme shifts to compete.
  
  Idea of free market is that it's better than a manage market. If there's room for innovation, the free market will find it. Central planning leads to being risk adverse and exploiting inefficiencies to soak up government money. So if free market is your religion, you shouldn't be bothered that China tries to plan their production instead. Cheap labour also doesn't hold since the USA has historically been happy to have their companies contract labour from cheaper countries. So if you're losing due to Chinese salaries, just hire Chinese people.
  Also, China doesn't subsidise any of these exports. Then they'd lose money, and they're exporting to earn money. They subsidise R&D and domestic sales of things that'll make domestic companies more productive and competitive.

Wow, does that mean we are ramping up domestic production for these? No? Oh...
- be funny if China put an export tariff on the production materials
- US EV companies are canceling production
- Classic Ronco politics

these actions already admit defeat
- Are iphones tariffed as well? It's also from China
  
  Technically. However, the end product is sold by a US company, so from the gov. POV it is fine.
  Banning chinese manufactured products would mean banning a huge portion of the domestic market.

Interesting word choice. China wants to "dominate", the US wants to "lead".
- You can't say the quiet part out loud.
- I mean, of course there’s loaded language in all this. Are you also surprised at the language and rhetoric used by Chinese government and media sources when they talk about the US?
  
  I don't tend to see that stuff, but I wouldn't be surprised.

The rest of the world will get cheaper solar panels and EVs, that's quite nice.
- Cheap panels are tanking European competitors, but it's probably too late to intervene at this point. Can't compete with work camps and cheap slave labor.
  
  you seriously think the ONLY possible explanation for cheap solar panels is "cheap slave labor?"
  not the fact that the chinese government has heavily subsidized these industries? your only explanation is work camps? where are the pictures of these work camps, the stories from all of those people who came to the US from China, they must have something to say about all of the slavery and work camps!
  get fucking real and stop living in lib fantasyland
  
  Correct... using work camps and cheap slave labour was only acceptable when US companies shipped production to China and pocketed the profits... now that China is doing it directly, it's certainly a problem we all care about
  
  Can’t compete with work camps and cheap slave labor.
  
  There are parts of the world not EU and US. They would all benefit from cheap panels.
  But EU and US are not really important: https://www.statista.com/statistics/668749/regional-distribution-of-solar-pv-module-manufacturing/ they account only for few percent of solar photovoltaic module production.

Also medical supplies, including masks, because COVID is Joever.
Edit to add: There is necessarily a lag between tariff imposition and indigenous production, and we’re left to fill that gap with our own wallets individually. Worse, the prices will almost definitely never come back down as they might in theory, because this is late-stage capitalism.
- It'd be really funny if those raw milk drinkers started a bird flu pandemic during a medical PPE shortage 😂

China is unfairly SUBSIDIZING green energy products. They must be stopped or DEMOCRACY will fall.
- Pretty sure you're being sarcastic, but just to be safe:
  America massively subsidizes too... the difference between China and America is when China subsidizes an industry, prices for the good go down, and their market share expands. When America subsidizes an industry, prices go up and board members get richer.
  The American business owners are salty that China is beating them at capitalism. And Biden has a strong track record of oppressing the people and standing up for the tyrants.
  
  Chinese auto workers average less than $3 an hour. When an entire country pays everyone 10% of what US workers make, it gets really hard to compete.
  However; fuck the 1 percenters. Bring back 1950's taxes.

You want Amerikkka to lead maybe subsidize EVs as well?
Why can't we all win? (Ide rather bus/rail and walkable cities)
- The US government does subsidize EVs (it's the only reason Tesla can exist, for instance), the problem is that all their subsidies just get used for stock buybacks. Why would a privately-owned company actually create more factories? That's just not profitable.
  The most rational system.
- The government does subsidize EVs.
  Additionally even used EVs are subsidized.
  Between federal and state tax credits, as well as utility company rebates, my folks just got over 5k back for a used Nissan leaf. They were able to trade in their old clunker, netting a profit of a few hundred dollars to upgrade to a practical used EV.

Well, we have targeted a few industries, particularly clean energy, electric vehicles, batteries, renewables, where we’re not trying to dominate the globe and be the only country in the world that supplies these goods.
Janet Yellen
I'm determined to ensure that america leads the world in them
Joe Biden
make up your mind ghouls
- This is basically a self imposed embargo that will ensure that we are outside observers to a world that is rapidly transitioning to renewable energy.
  
  It will also be part of financial handouts to underperforming US tech companies
- A tariff on imported goods to USA doesn't affect global market of other countries importing Chinese goods you absolute genius.
  
  It reduces competition for Chinese goods, making them cheaper and more accessible to less rich countries.
  
  All those cars and solar panels that Chinese companies counted on selling in the US must go somewhere. Every other country in the world (excluding the EU, although to a lesser extent than the US) isn't hell-bent on sanctioning China, their production will be just redirected elsewhere.
  And since the US, biggest net importer in the world, just stopped... importing, there will be more goods sought after by less money, AKA more supply (old supply + goods that can't profitably be sold in the US anymore) but less demand (since the US just passed these new tariffs) and as you know, this is gonna make prices fall, maybe not a drastic fall but still.

America can't compete with China and American corps cried for daddy.
- The free market in action.
  
  The free market inaction
  FTFY
- The innovation will be bred any minute now
- Oh we could but then the executive class would have to forgo their 8th Yacht.
  
  so u cant because the "executive class" (capitalist they are called capitalist) control everything, u theoretically COULD if u had a revolution but u CANT.

Repeatedly stomping on my collection of rakes to own the commies

For every voter who wants a habitable planet, a cheap electric car, or to catch covid less we lose, we're gonna pick up two moderate republicans!
- A) Moderate
  B) republican
  Pick one
  
  That's the joke.
  There's a total of about 10 never-trump-republicans, and all of them have jobs at NYT, CNN, or MSNBC telling their audience that all the bad things Biden does are electorally smart because there's a bunch of moderate republican swing voters who will choose diet-fascism over the real thing.
  This is the same tack they took in 2016, from Chuck Schumer going "For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin" to every pundit saying "suberban women are going to decide this election" and using that to explain why generally unpopular policies are electorally smart.
  
  He's making fun of Chuck Schumer "quote"

Their "determined to dominate"
Our "determined to ensure we lead the world"

Swiggity swooty the oil lobby is coming for your booty
- Funds raised will be used to offset further increases in subsidies to the domestic oil industry
  
  In all honesty they could use this tax and an extra oil tax to subsidise the shit out of solar and EVs
- Heezul Schneezul, the future is diesel.
  
  Disease-al

remember when dems made fun of trump for "chi-na" stuff? good times
- See, they were making fun of him saying Chai-nuh, and the way he was pursuing hostilities, not the hostilities themselves.
  Same deal with the Iraq War until like 2006. Kerry's pitch was not that it was bad and should be ended but that it was being run incompetently.
  Or ask any Blue Maga what specific immigration reforms they want. They want the same thing, they just have minor disagreements on how to get there or even just aesthetics.

We should just be buying solar panels as cheap as we can, as fast we can who gives a fuck if they "dominate" the net positive is worth it

This is the trumpiest shit ever.

What a bell-end. Maybe instead of tariffs the US should begin vesting in education, job training, and research into these sectors so it can compete instead of trying to hobble the competition in the domestic market. This is just protectionism by a different name
- That takes too long, Ford wants money now

Steel I get. That's an environmental issue since US creation is way more carbon friendly. However the rest makes no sense without an announcement in domestic investment that is pulled from currently used non-environmental budgets.
- They already put 6.1 billion into domestic silicon fabs this year and gave out a $362 million dollars loan to bolster domestic EV production while giving the solar industry 7 billion in grants.
  
  And did that money go directly into production?
  Or did it pad some folks pockets?
  
  Wait we gave the Auto industry money for EVs and 50k SUVs were the result? Holy shit, that's right up there with giving 4 billion to the telecoms for no actual network expansion.
  
  This is helpful, thank you.
  
  No nearly enough to fight the petroleum machine.
- Pretty sure the steel tariff is a bad thing too. There are certain grades of steel that just aren't produced in the US. People threw a fit over it when trump did the same thing.

No one in the US will dive into major production of such things without a more guaranteed long term tariff. Not something that may go away within 5 years time. Also, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell the US will be a world leader in solar production. We might dominate the US market.

hell yea FUCK the environment lmao

If hes going to do that he should light a fire under the domestics asses to get our own evs up to snuff. And market competitive. None of that whining how it cannot be done either
- Yup if he's serious then the next move is to turn the Big 3 into the Big 6.
  
  Why would the main benefactors and purchasers of this policy position (the Big 3) greenlight their destruction? This is US capitalist policy at play. They can't compete internationally and had to purchase their domestic protection.
- Yes. Also, I'd rgue the solar panels are the bigger issue since EVs are a marginal improvement for the climate vs clean energy and biking/walking.

Free market
Democracy
Freedom of choice
Innovation
Competition
Ebil authoritariariariarian cheyna
- that sounds like joe biden talking in his sleep

What a fucking joke. Why are we expected to take these people seriously? Communism will win, Death to America.

It's ok.. the consumer will ultimately pay that tariff.
- Don't worry about it! Some intrepid American entrepreneur will simply begin producing American EVs immediately.
  If modern politics has taught us anything, all you need to do is drop-kick the first domino and the Free Market will do exactly what you want it to do every time with zero follow-up. Society is completely linear like that.
- Lmao yeah that's how tariffs work...

This dude really does not want to get reelected again. I hate that he's the only choice. What a piece of shit.
- "No" is always an option.
  
  I'm not an accelerationist, so no, it's not really an option. It's cool that you feel like you have the ability to just say "no", but I don't. I have to live here, and if Trump gets elected then there is a very high chance I might find myself in a concentration camp before the end of his term, assuming he doesn't find a way to abolish elections entirely.
  So no, I don't really have an option to just shove my thumb up my ass and refuse to vote.
  Edit: Sorry about the double post, Lemmy was being weird.

Can someone explain to me how tariffs help us? Couldn’t I buy a Chinese EV cheaper if there were no tariffs.?
- Correct. If there were no tariffs, you could buy a chinese EV for cheap. In this case for so cheap that the domestic US/Non-Chinese market cannot compete. So in order to protect these markets, the product needs to be made artificially more expensive with tariffs. This way, the domestic markets have a chance of competing.
  However, this also isolates the country and provokes retaliation from the other side. This usually results in both sides sabotaging their trade relations with each other (for ex. with tariffs) which is called a trade war.
  
  I would be surprised if China cares too much, there is the rest of the world that needs small cheap EVs and solar panels. But they must do something as response, that's diplomacy.
  I also don't see the problem to put tariffs to protect domestic products, sometimes it is necessar, but prohibiting completely is not cool.
- It doesn't help you.
  It helps Elon.
  
  Yeah. That was my biggest gripe actually 😆🫠
- Tariffs raise the price of affected goods allowing local suppliers to grow their business and fill the gap. A lot of countries looking to industrialize will institute tariffs to protect their industry so it can grow enough to compete with foreign companies. In our case it's putting the cart before the horse; our domestic industries are currently unable to supply domestic needs (remember the "logistics" issue at the beginning of COVID?) and several of these goods require specialist knowledge to produce, so it's not like we can just open a couple factories. Which is the other thing- companies might not invest in new factories as these tariffs could go away tomorrow and it takes time for factories to be built and then to even start producing goods. If the tariffs goes away before anything new is ready they will just shut down.
- Yeah but they dont want you to buy Chinese EVs, this essentially pushes non-chinese EVs (so US-made or ones from Europe)
- We have a number of subsidies for domestic EV production. That will all be a waste if China's subsidized EVs undercut the domestic market. This is consistent with a broader effort to boost domestic manufacturing. While at odds with efforts to promote the adoption of green technologies, the administration is trying to strike a balance between competing interests, in this instance balancing consumer access to green tech with job growth, domestic manufacturing, and less reliance on China for critical technologies.

As a hobbiest, I make things out of steel and aluminum. Can't wait to pay more.
- As a grammar and language hobbyist, I'm interested in your spelling of hobbiest. Shouldn't such a word come up so often in your hobbyist communities that you know how to spell it by now?
  Feels like someone living in Texas spelling it Texes.
  
  As a logic and math hobbyist, I'm wondering how you came to the following conclusions...
  a) That they participate in an online community OR b) that speaking (in an offline community) would somehow help them to know how to spell the word
  AND
  c) That the word "hobbyist" comes up often in these communities
  
  Thank you for taking interest in the spelling in my post. My autocorrect kept changing things and I must have failed to properly proofread. I do, in fact, know how to spell the word. As a human, I am prone to errors from time to time. I apologize for this.
  Since grammar and language are your hobby, I would suggest you spend less time online, as correcting the rampant errors in language and grammar must consume a great deal of your time. I would also like to point out that there are many people online for whom English is a second language.
  
  Words aren't real, we can spell them however we want. Don't be weird.

That's... That's not how any of this works.

nice now the all the cartels will start wheeling and dealing cpus and evs woo woo..

Man what a fucking idiot.
Trump can't campaign so Biden's doing his job for him.

Let's get a tarrif on major grocery and supply chain vendors at home first.
- Just what I need, a larger grocery bill

The real question is, what percentage of the product that they export is purchased by Americans? Because if that percentage is really low, it turns this into performance politics. Especially the one-upping of Trump's economic war on China. The problem there of course being that it won't make any difference; Biden's never going to win over a Republican. What he needs to do is lean into the left harder so that he ensures a higher turnout. But he's not going to, he'd rather stay his old-ass course, and risk plunging our country into a tyrannical totalitarian nightmare. I mean a worse one than it already is. You should be worried more about inflation, women's rights, and not feeding weapons to Israel. But our country has an insane "Christian" hard-on for Israel so that's not going to happen.
And by inflation I'm referring to everyday household products and food, not the stock market. People don't care how good the stock market is doing when not only do they not have a direct stake in it, but even basics like food cost too goddamn much.
- If you go into any USonian home, probably at least 60% of the products are made in China.

So end H1B visas and refocus tax dollars on infrastructure and education you fucking prick.
- I know for sure he's doing the infrastructure part, but I'm not paying close enough attention to say anything about the other two.

F. I'm trying to buy solar panels right now and China has some good ones.

This is what we needed to encourage the fascist Biden vote!
It will do wonders!

3 out of the 5 things have nothing to do with green energy.

What an awful god damn tweet. Are the tariffs to combat Chinese governmental meddling? If so, great. If not then they’re protectionist stupidity that’s sure to draw a response. This tweet sure makes it sound like it’s the latter. sigh
- Chinese government interference

Yeah, screw Biden at this point. He's basically 2016 Trump on so many policies. 2024 Trump is going to be worse but so what.
- Yeah, screw Biden at this point. He’s basically 2016 Trump on so many policies. 2024 Trump is going to be worse but so what.
  You might want to spend a wee bit more time educating yourself on these issues. Because you are so horribly wrong it's not even funny.
  
  Not at all. Stop being brainwashed. Voted for him in the past. Won't again.