nuanceposting

there is only one truth, and it is that there is no gender war, only misdirection from class warfare that has monetized and monopolized even our interpersonal, romantic, and sexual connection.
when people don't have problems, you can't sell them solutions.
- The shackles of sexism, racism, and homophobia do not simply fall off when you accept class consciousness. These are still fights for awareness which must continue to be fought. Otherwise, we risk allowing toxic mentalities into our midst, which will only serve to alienate and expel our minority brethren.
  The cages built by the state which cordon us off from one another exist in the mind, but they are very real in impact. We must fight by destroying the cages in each of our thoughts, and pass our knowledge to others so they can do the same. That is the only means to stand as one.
  Let's also not forget that there are very real shackles placed on many groups - many real cages - which we must work to destroy as well.
  
  Those who do not move do not notice their chains.
  Noticing your chains and beginning to rattle them, and encouraging your peers to do the same, is the first step to releasing yourself from them, but it is not the only step.
- Here's Orwell in "Homage to Catalonia":
  "There were perhaps a thousand men at the barracks, and a score or so of women, apart from the militiamen's wives who did the cooking. There were still women serving in the militias, though not very many. In the early battles they had fought side by side with the men as a matter of course. It is a thing that seems natural in time of revolution. Ideas were changing ready, however. The militiamen had to be kept out of the riding-school while the women were drilling there because they laughed at the women and put them off. A few months earlier no one would have seen anything comic in a woman handling a gun."
  This was in an overwhelmingly leftist camp. Orwell sees glimpses of an anarchist collective based on mutual aid popping up. Yet, sexisim clearly persisted after a period where it had been pushed aside.
  These issues don't go away just because people become class conscious.
- Even if we take gender-based issues as very real (which is often not quite true since we target a demographic of literally half the planet, which is never representative), they come second to the class warfare.
  A poor male worker holds way less power than a rich businesswoman.
  
  epic intersectionality moment
- If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.
  
  No, we also have a sickle
- I don't think this is a good example of class struggle, at least not directly. The bear meme is valid in as much as it describes one woman's feelings, but the truth is that in 85-90% of cases, the woman knows her attacker¹. The random man is simply not the issue.
  The issue is power disparity. Teacher vs student, employer vs worker, landlord vs tenant. It's difficult to reduce the power difference due to physical strength, but the others are all changeable. More (meaningful) oversight for police, better tenancy boards, and stronger unions are all examples of structures that might make it harder to victimize women.
  Class struggle explains economic, and maybe political power, but those are not the only types of power in play.
  And if I'm wrong? Then we've made a better society for nothing.
  ¹ https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker
  
  i fundamentally agree with you. i think it depends on how loosely you define 'direct'. class struggle has its fingers in many pies including
  marketing saturation / materialism
  mental health availability
  quality of education
  overall day-to-day stress levels
  all of which are at odds with encouraging a more empathetic, happy, and healthy population of men. people who are angry and fearful and deprived are easier to control and sell products to than people who are kind and understanding and satisfied. a higher quality of life breeds a higher quality of people and interpersonal interactions.

Social media doesn't often reward kindness, but that's what is needed. Show kindness to young men, when you can. They need better guidance.
- So much this. ❤️ But it’s tough.
  I am making this post coming out of a comment section where women expressing their most personal and horrific experiences are getting majority downvotes, while men are yapping on and on about “the problem with feminism these days” over them and getting no shortage of likes. It’s frankly disturbing to witness.
  I am trying to be kind with this (and all) posts because I recognize it is what is needed. But I also fully understand the plight of other women who get frustrated or even lash out.
  Take a deep breath. Listen to one another. Be kind.
- Needing to be rewarded in order to act is a property of children
  
  You forget that the internet is indeed full of actual children

It’s true that nuance does indeed often get lost in online debates, so I appreciate you for making this post.
- thanks! i hope this format can catch on im kind of proud of it lol
  
  keep doing it and it probably will to be honest.
  
  Its a fun format, I like it :)

This meme is based AF
- no u ❤️

we need a nuance posting rule on the internet i think.
For every sensational shitpost you must provide at least one nuance.
- honestly i would smash the subscribe button so hard on a c/nuanceposting community. verbose and carefully worded memes are my absolute jam. 😎🙂‍↕️
  
  eudaimonia on dbzer0 has what is essentially the spiritual precedent to that community. You'd probably like it, it's not super busy or anything right now, but we could always use more users over there.
  No memey shit over there though, it's pretty explicitly focused on the underlying aspects of this kind of stuff.
- It wouldn't work, unless it was pretty heavily moderated a la askhistorians, or what have you. You'd probably just get like, AITA level nuance shit, where people drone on about like, things that are "common sense", or commonly accepted talking points that have the pretense of nuance, but none of the actual weight. Maybe just like, mild centrism.
  The thing about valuable, nuanced thought is that it's mildly chafing in that it's foreign and novel, introduces something new into the mix, but not so chafing that it's impossible to accept from the current POV. Social media operates in contextually eliminating extremes, when you automate it all, you either get a system where people only push around stuff that's highly agreeable, or stuff that's extremely disagreeable. Nuance is basically anathema to automated online spaces.
  
  probably be better than extremely partisan posting alone though.
  I feel like you could totally monetize nuance, i'm just not sure how you would go about it, satire maybe?

nuance:

You are all arguing about bears, but I am over here day dreaming
NSFW
- Uhhhhhhh.....what a horrible day to be literate
  
  Nothing like some vintage copy pasta to sear your brain
  
  yeah, he spelled exquisite wrong, 0/10 would not read again

Hopefully people see this and stop posting ragebait 🙏

OK, seriously, I thought I've spent enough free time on Lemmy telling you to watch Barbie here for some of you here to, you know, actually watch Barbie.
So let me be clear: it is ultimately the Barbies' complete disregard for the Kens' feelings that led to the Kens being poisoned by the idea of the Patriarchy and all the subsequent mess in Barbieland, so way ahead of you on 2, to reiterate, what the Kens did was wrong, but you have got to take a nuanced approach to these things.
Also, on 1, all I said was that unlike the meme I feel that bears are terrifying, and then some weirdo came out of the woodwork and got really angry and start talking over me and calling me a dumbass and I was making it all about me somehow. The irony was so palpable I was at a loss for words.

What? Men are going to adopt shitty beliefs and exercise their privilege no matter what and nothing can be done about it. /s
- The gamification of social media means any attempt to draw a bright line of social conduct will just end in people deploying that rule in the most cynical context.
  "Believe all women" means we're going to slap generic women's faces in our Avis and lie out our asses.
  "Let people enjoy things" means reframing the most deplorable and nakedly hostile conduct as some kind of secret fetish you have to support.
  "Protect Kids" means posting baby pictures under every comment and saying "This is who you're talking to".
  "Act like an adult" means getting CP in your DMs.
  When its all a fucking game and you score points by causing other people mental anguish, the only thing any sane healthy person can do is log off, touch grass, and get as far away from the hellscape that is social media as possible.
  
  That's an interesting perspective. They would say the same thing about "touching grass" when tv became popular. The scenarios you describe are more extreme versions of beaver and butthole are corrupting your kids.

Those young men should also choose the bear. If we explained that to them, and why, maybe the next generation wouldn't need to.
- I mean, I'm a man getting to the point where I'm entering the "No longer young" decade, but I'd take the bear. People are less predictable than bears. I don't want to be isolated from civilization with ANY stranger.
  
  It's exactly this. A bear is a bear. Known quantity. Likely to leave you alone, and you're in his space. A man? Possibly fine. Possibly gonna do some bad stuff. Why is he even there? Who knows!
  People are really bad at risk calculations. Bears just aren't that risky by comparison.
- I think you're misunderstanding the point of the meme then
  
  Not really. It's saying to soften the language. I disagree. I say explain the language and why that level of anger is justified. The boys will quickly realize and be told that it's not about them. They'll likely also be just as mad at the s*** that goes on.
  Kids are smart. If you tell them that women would pick a bear because a small percentage of men rape a large percentage of women, they'll get that.
- Honestly I think if you gave them the same choice, they'd pick bear too. Bear or a man who has on average 75% more muscle mass and 90% more strength than you. He is also 93% likely to be gay. Now you might be in the forest with your nice and normal gay neighbor and have a totally lovely time! Or you might get one of those gay priests who just want to rape you repeatedly. Which do you pick? Man or bear?
  That's a lot closer to the choice women are making.
  Source on average difference of male to female strength https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205132404.htm
  
  What the fuck is any of this
- Many do. Why is why we have MGTOW and Andrew Tate
  
  How are they choosing the bear? Both of those are actively hostile towards women, they don't just "go their own way" to chill with the bear
  
  Because...men....make up ~80% of all murder victims, in addition to 90% of the perpetrators? According to the UN's 2019 homicide study?
  That's why men fall into frothing inceldom and whatever Andrew Tate is doing? Because they share statistically just as much risk regarding other men as women face from men, just for a predominantly different crime?
  Because that's why they need to be choosing the bear, and that just doesn't sound right...

Could someone explain number 2 to me? A lot of big words, and I have trouble to understand what it's trying to say.
- It's claiming that pushing men out of civilized communities, spaces and conversations ultimately leads to them embracing more accepting alt-right ideologies and movements.
  
  Thank you!
  
  Follow up question: What would be a practical example on how to achieve this? To not push men out of civilized communities that is.
- Young men are much more likely to be non-conforming to sexist cultural/gender norms and stereotypes, which often leads to them being ostracized more by general society and makes it easier for grifters (like manosphere influencers) to take ahold of them and radicalize them with alt-right and/or extremely misogynistic beliefs.
  There are plenty of amazing feminist role models, but the right's form of propoganda is so much more enticing because it tells you that everyone else is the problem and you're superior to others, rather than ask you to give a shot at understanding reality like leftist influences do. That goes with anything on the right, fascists are a lot more motivating and good at gaining/rallying radical supporters because it's so much easier to get people on your side if you're allowed to lie about everything. So naturally, impressionable – and extremely vulnerable and emotionally volatile – young men gravitate towards the extreme negative influences due to how our society and education is poorly set up to prevent that.
  And in this case how sexism and toxic masculinity is deeply ingrained into our society that so many of these young men are made to feel like they're "not real men" by those around them, it really pushes them towards this even more. Rather than reject the idea of a "real man" or a "real woman", they embrace them even more and convince themselves that they are the realest men, and OTHERS are pathetic.
- It's a lot easier to identify with the bad guys if you're assumed to be a bad guy.
  "Women think I'm more dangerous than a bear? What the hell? I never did anything"
  Followed by
  "hey what this guy on YouTube says is true, women sexualise themselves, I mean look at instagram. This isn't my problem,."
  I know this is a bit of an over simplification but thought 1 is what I thought.
  I'm a bit older, tho and my second thought was - "but ive never felt unsafe alone with a woman, definitely have felt unsafe around some men."
- It blames women who express their fear of being scared of men for the violence commited by men against women
  
  I think your post is exactly what is criticized by OP. In the first part of the post it is explicitly stated men should not talk over the fear of women. A message like yours seems to blame people just because they criticize the way of discussion in some places. I think it is obvious that men are influenced in a possible negative way, when they are always seen as danger. At least for me it probably contributed to my low self esteem, especially in all sex/gender related topics. I think, we as men do so much harm, I don't want to take part in this. But i took it to the extreme, so I was ashamed of everything sexual about me. But as OP said, all of this doesn't invalidate the feeling of any woman. But for example this situation here is not governed by fear, still it seems you can't discuss the social effects of this sentiment "against" man, without discrediting the other side. Sure, violence done mainly to women is the most important topic. But if men always get portrayed as danger, I can understand some are open to other, more misogynist worldviews.
  
  Gr8 b8 m8

I'm not gonna lie, the grammar of that first sentence is quite confusing to simpleton like me.
- fixed hopefully :)

Me likey

POST RESTORED THABK YOU MODS

- Man...my BIL with his baby-mama/ex-fiance. I used to work with her (that's where they met, we all worked together at the time).
  She's so nice and bubbly on the surface but holy shit there's a demon under that veneer and I've met it. That manipulative demon is how she became baby-mama after she became ex-fiance. But he puts up with it so he can keep seeing his kid and hopefully shield him from it ~half the time.

Ah yes what a fun meme, so much haha's were had.
- There is zero quality control here. I would rather see spam ads leading to shady websites than political grandstanding and ragebait at this point. At least this post isn't being intentionally divisive.

Ah! Doublethink!
/s
- i know ur meming but it’s good to know what doublethink is and how this is not that :)

HOW DARE YOU /s

If I were stuck in the forest with a bear and another person, I'd try to gauge if I can run faster than the other person. If not, I'll try to see if I can hit their knee caps with something. But seriously, the problem with that hypothetical situation is there's nothing actionable, you're either for or against, no chance of improvement. On the other hand, you shouldn't take things personally. We all just probably wish there are things we can do to improve.

I would love to purge this meme, and all of it's derivates out of my feed.

This whole thing is completely blown out of proportion. The fact that young disenfranchised men are getting upset that women they don't know are choosing a bear over them says that they are taking it personally when it's not.
If you're a young man, and the people around you have decided they would rather choose the bear over you, that's a sign that you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself about why they would do that. What have you done that would make them decide that. And if you extend that feeling to random women that you don't know, then you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself why you feel that way. You don't know the lived experience of random women. You don't know why they would choose certain death over you. Taking it personally only shows your immaturity. You can't control how other people feel. You can only control yourself. If you want to understand why women around you would choose the bear, maybe try asking them nicely and actually listen. Empathy works both ways. Showing some will encourage people to reciprocate.
- It's not certain death. Bears are predictable, you can easily scare a bear away or play dead. Random men are unpredictable. As a man, I would much rather ruin into a beat than some sketchy dude who wants to rob me or wear my skin as a coat.
  
  But that's just it. It's not about the bear. It was never about the bear. It's about women not trusting unknown men, and the men who get offended by that. Anyone that insists on predicting what the bear would do, or wants to discuss statistics of bear attacks, is missing the point. It's distracting away from the actual conversation.
  Women have the right to feel uncomfortable around unknown men. Men have the right to feel hurt by that sentiment. But it's not the responsibility of women to coddle the men and make them feel better. The men need to understand that they can only control themselves. Part of controlling themselves is to empathize with women and try to understand why they would choose the bear. Not get upset that a random woman doesn't want to be alone with them. Not proclaim they'd also choose the bear because they don't want to be alone with some sketchy man. Not convince them that the bear is statistically more dangerous. Just simply listen and try to understand. That's all. When you learn to control yourself and empathize, you'll find others that will do the same. And then maybe some of those women will choose you over the bear...
- That would be cool and all if women reciprocated and listened to men for once.
  One of the ways in which some men radicalize is through support towards women that is not appreciated nor reciprocated. Something like "duh, if you didn't support us we'd call you the problem".
  Of course this gets personal. If women expect men to listen, could they please listen for once? I'm sure they'd get a lot of insights behind a lot of male behaviors, and particularly why we are upset and why some men turn aggressive and hostile and follow rapists and douchebags.
  Want insights on abusive behaviors and how to prevent them? The answers are there. Heck, threads under this post contain the true answers. Listen.
  
  If all women listened to men for once?
  Someone come out and tell me I'm on a Poe's law hidden camera show.
  
  You are not owed reciprocation. You are not owed appreciation. No one is asking you to listen to them. You've taken it upon yourself to respond to a woman making a general statement that's not directed at you. You made that choice.
  It's not the responsibility of women to ensure that you do not become radicalized. You have to take ownership of your own life and the choices that you make. That includes the choice to become aggressive, or hostile, or to become a rapist. Women don't make you do those things. You decide to do those things, no matter how you try to justify it. The choice is yours alone.
- "Just remember, men: under no circumstances are women ever wrong. Every problem is caused by you and must be fixed by you."
  
  Way to purposely misinterpret what I said.
  How are women "wrong" about feeling uncomfortable around unknown men? How are women asking you to fix that problem? None of what you just said is actually happening. Stop creating a fantasy where you're perfect and it's everyone else who has a problem.
  
  I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, would you mind expanding on it?

Be decent to one another