9mo ago

Telegram founder and CEO alledges signal has backdoors, they don't provide reproduceible builds, etc.

Here's what he said in a post on his telegram channel:

🤫 A story shared by Jack Dorsey, the founder of Twitter, uncovered that the current leaders of Signal, an allegedly “secure” messaging app, are activists used by the US state department for regime change abroad 🥷

🥸 The US government spent $3M to build Signal’s encryption, and today the exact same encryption is implemented in WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Google Messages and even Skype. It looks almost as if big tech in the US is not allowed to build its own encryption protocols that would be independent of government interference 🐕‍🦺

🕵️‍♂️ An alarming number of important people I’ve spoken to remarked that their “private” Signal messages had been exploited against them in US courts or media. But whenever somebody raises doubt about their encryption, Signal’s typical response is “we are open source so anyone can verify that everything is all right”. That, however, is a trick 🤡

🕵️‍♂️ Unlike Telegram, Signal doesn’t allow researchers to make sure that their GitHub code is the same code that is used in the Signal app run on users’ iPhones. Signal refused to add reproducible builds for iOS, closing a GitHub request from the community. And WhatsApp doesn’t even publish the code of its apps, so all their talk about “privacy” is an even more obvious circus trick 💤

🛡 Telegram is the only massively popular messaging service that allows everyone to make sure that all of its apps indeed use the same open source code that is published on Github. For the past ten years, Telegram Secret Chats have remained the only popular method of communication that is verifiably private 💪

Original post: https://t.me/durov/274

214 comments

Telegram's server side software is closed source, owned and ran by them exclusively so they really have no room to talk. WhatsApp doesn't even have OSS clients so they're even worse in that regard
- exactly, they (Telegram) don't need to put sketchy code in the clients when most messages are not E2E encrypted and they control the servers lol
  
  Still the code in telegram desktop client may not be sketchy, but is ugly as fuck, so that too should be considered.
- and run* by them

It's hard to overstate what a nothing-burger this article really is! Let me break it down:
Signal got $3 million from the Open Technology Fund at some point in its development
Some anonymous source alleges that the OTF's ultimate goal is to promote US foreign interests
The current chairman of the board Katherine Maher worked at the National Democratic Institute and Wikipedia before
The same anonymous source says she was recruited because of connections to the OTF
She has at some point voiced the opinion that a completely free internet without regulation just reproduces existing power structures, and that balancing regulation and 1st amendment rights is a tough problem
Signal doesn't have reproducible builds on iOS (it absolutely does on Android btw)
Some people feel like Signal chats come up more often than they should in court cases and media reports
That's it, that's the whole story. That's the reason why the Telegram guy of all people thinks you should be careful, and better use his chat service instead, and the Twitter guy agrees.
I mean, reproducible builds on iOS would be nice, but that platform has much bigger problems from a privacy/security/sovereignty/freedom standpoint anyway. And the rest is just nothing turned up to 11.
- tl;dr "Signal might be untrustworthy because the tech came from a State-sponsored project and the current chairman acknowledges that Wikipedia has a white and Western bias."
  just wait until they find out pretty much all tech we have can be traced back to government-funded research.
  
  Did you know the early early internet researchers were part of a clandestine government organization known as ARPANET???? The entire TCP/IP stack is just a state-sponsored backdoor into your life!!!
  WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!
- Getting “Tor is pentagon spyware” vibes from OP
- I guess it's the usual Russian propaganda tactic throughout Telegram. Mixing conspiracy theories with half-truths.
  The NSA indeed distributed a defected encryption library in the past. These days I'm pretty sure big techs use open source encryption to avoid this trap.
  And Telegram says blah, blah, iPhone is exploited. But IF Telegram is correct on this one, Andriod versions would be defect as well.

Lol telegram calling signal insecure is too funny.
- Isn't it that Telegram doesn't claim to be super secure, apart from possibly their encryption on mobile?
  This doesn't prevent them from uncovering other possible plots in supposedly secure platforms.
  
  True but in this case there credibility is low

Maybe he should focus on adding e2e encryption to the default chats and group chats instead of spreading FUD.

Telegram: There are backdoors in Signal encryption!
Also Telegram: not encrypted
- Telegram secret chats are e2e encrypted though
  
  Secret chats only. With their own, in-house encryption, that, if I remember correctly, the apps don't use according to the specifications.
  Maybe I'm mixing up mtproto 1 and 2 with that second part, though.
  
  But extremely hard to use to the point that nobody uses them. I send a secret chat to someone and they write me back in the unencrypted chat.
  It shouldn't be possible to send anything unencrypted
  
  But for some reason they don't develop features for e2ee like the other chats. Perhaps it's just hard
- It's encrypted though?
  You are trusting their server security and them as a company, sure, but it is encrypted against the server for sure.
  It's not as good as ir could be but that's no reason to spread misinformation.

Looks like a push to discredit Signal right now. While I know Signal isn't perfect, I do like it and I haven't seen anything that is better (on the whole). The 3rd "emoji-point" is quite an accusation, and I would love to see any evidence of this kind of thing, that didn't result from the cops unlocking a defendants phone, or having infiltrated a chat.
- While I know Signal isn't perfect, I do like it and I haven't seen anything that is better (on the whole).
  Agreed. But it is worth mentioning that XMPP with OMEMO seems to be the current gold standard - runs almost everywhere, tons of available (free) servers, secure end to end messages, and fully auditable public source code.
  
  I have used xmpp a lot, but I can't really recommend it to friends and family as a secure messenger. There are too many compatibility issues between clients and servers. If your friend is on a client or server that doesn't support the same encryption protocols, then you can't have a secure chat. Basically there is too much user knowledge and effort required at this time, for xmpp to be a good, secure, general use chat. I very much look forward to this changing. I also really like Matrix, but it is still a bit rough around the edges as of my last check.
  
  That may be true, but wake me up when they capture 0.5% of the messaging app market :)
- Tin hat time:
  I wonder if Russia's trying to get everyone on Telegram because they have control over it.
  
  This is probably just Telegram seeing an opportunity to peel some users away from Signal during a period of heightened paranoia in the West (anti-genocide organizing).
  
  They moved from Russia because Russia tried some shit so no .
  
  Maybe not Russia, but they sure are working with a certain government:
  https://mastodon.social/@alshafei/112413115927959085
  
  https://mastodon.social/@campuscodi/112410704497640450
- The 3rd emoji is just bs. Then again, most of his post is bs

arent telegram chats unencrypted by default?
An alarming number of important people I’ve spoken to remarked that their “private” Signal messages had been exploited against them in US courts or media
source?? (i bet this ends up being a "they had full access to my unlocked phone" situation again)
also the whole thing abt US funded encryption is the same bullshit argument ppl use against Tor all the time. it doesnt mean shit.
this just reads like someone desperately trying to get more market share by spreading FUD
- "an alarming number of important people" is the source. That's more than enough, right?
  
  im gonna assume ur joking. its hard to tell sarcasm on the internet.
  obviously i would like an actual source like at least one of those "important" ppl talking abt what happened to them
  
  read: "all my rich white friends"
- https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/apps/telegram-gibt-nutzerdaten-an-das-bundeskriminalamt-a-0e4d3fcb-8081-4b87-b062-db412bbc294b
  Well, Telegram seems to be giving user data to the German Federal Criminal Police Office, and if they're cooperating with the German authorities, I don't see why I'd presume they aren't cooperating with others as well.
  All this is actually documented, compared to those nebulous "important people".
  
  Tbf, they held a user vote in Germany (supposedly, although the app did ask me to vote) whether to work with them or risk to cease services. Iirc the backgrounds were extremist (terrorist?) groups operating on the platform
- arent telegram chats unencrypted by default?
  Encryption is always there. Problem is, some people refer to anything "not e2e encrypted" as "unencrypted" for some reason.
  
  And it infuriates me to no end. It's one thing to trust them and their servers and it's another thing altogether to send actual plaintext data around the net, that's crazy and it's what people are implying.
  For the record, until WhatsApp implemented e2e their messages were indeed fucking plaintext, and it took a while before they were pressured into e2e. It helps for them that their platform is very mobile based vs telegram, where the service is more server based. Telegram did have enough time to implement a server based e2e 0 knowledge encryption protocol though, it's not really rocket science at this point.
- "Signal is insecure"
  Putin probably

Go read the GitHub issue. The main difficulty in implementing reproducible builds is the code signing Apple requires as well as other tweaks Apple makes to modify the binary from what the dev submits to what gets downloaded from the App Store. Note that Android already has reproducible builds. Also the reason the GitHub issue was closed wasn’t “refusal” to implement the feature, they wanted to move the discussion to their forums.
- How does Telegram ensure reproducible builds for iOS? Or is Dorsey lying
  
  Who knows how apple decides to do anything? There may be some really stupid arbitrary reason apple modifies signal but not telegram just because apple insists on being difficult. If you don't trust apple don't use an iPhone and just download it on android.

Sounds like someone is mad that security experts would rather trust a tried-and-true encryption standard over Telegram's encryption which is known to not be anywhere near as secure as the Signal protocol.
Pavel resorting to outright slander to promote Telegram is not something I expected to see.
- he does raise very valid points about reproducible builds, which should be a priority if your product is security
  Edit: oh @Wolflink below points out that such builds are available for Android, but iOS has issues stemming from Apple and not Signal. This then begs the question, why is Telegram reproducible on iOS?
  
  You need some loops to jump through to get there. But that can be achieved for Signal as well, if you check the discussions regarding reproducible builds for Signal's iOS client, you'll see that people just decided it is not worth the hassle to push it through.
  
  This then begs the question, why is Telegram reproducible on iOS?
  Is it really.
- Sounds like someone is mad that security experts would rather trust a tried-and-true encryption standard over Telegram’s encryption which is known to not be anywhere near as secure as the Signal protocol.
  There's an issue in Russia with graduates of a few of the "kinda top" universities considering themselves elite, but not quite being as qualified as they think.
  Durov's brother won a few programming competitions for highschoolers. Because of that apparently he should be considered something in cryptography. For people thinking like this at least.
  Pavel resorting to outright slander to promote Telegram is not something I expected to see.
  Why, it's very much like him.

Why all the emojis? Why can't people just write an article?
- he is maybe flexing the "custom emojis" feature of telegram, see original post
- It’s like a memetic form of neoteny, “the retention of juvenile traits into adulthood.”
  I’m waiting for the day when a politician responds to a motion on the floor with “bruh.”
- It seems like you’re passionate about emojis

This comes a few days after Jack Dorsey confirmed that he had left the board of Bluesky and then starting to use Tw(X)tter and calling Tw(X)tter "freedom technology". Coincidence ?
- ?????
  Is this guy stupid or what, current day Twitter could not be further than "Freedom technology".
  You can barely even see Tweets while logged out for fucks sake
  
  https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/may/07/jack-dorsey-quits-bluesky-board-urges-users-stay-elon-musk-x-twitter
  Earlier on Saturday, he unfollowed all but three accounts on X: Edward Snowden, Stella Assange, the wife of the WikiLeaks founder Julian, and Musk.
  “Don’t depend on corporations to grant you rights,” Dorsey tweeted. “Defend them yourself using freedom technology. (you’re on one).”
  Despite his promotion of alternatives to the site he founded, Dorsey has publicly shared his admiration for Musk. In 2022, he called the multibillionaire the “singular solution I trust” for the future of Twitter, though a year later he criticised Musk for his “fairly reckless” moves after taking control of the site.
- Why does it say Telegram, but it's about the Twitter/Bluesky guy?
  Actually, nevermind. It's just confusing.

You don't need a backdoor in signal to bypass its encryption.
All you need is to exploit the phone and wait for them to open or use signal.
If you think your phone is safe from the NSA or similar services, I got some bad news for you.
- I'm 100% secure, I have Nord VPN
  
  This comment sponsored by NordVPN
- That works for every IM.
  
  It'd almost like... phones aren't secure.
- All you need is to exploit the phone and wait for them to open or use signal.
  Physical access is root access. But just because you can't make something NSA-proof dosen't mean you can't make it bloody difficult to break into.
  
  There's been enough zero day remote exploits that there's bound to be more.
  Pretty sure there's more than 1 about receiving an SMS and the payload rooting the phone and you not even knowing it happened. At least 1 but I think 2 or more.
  Something about a malicious image also rooting a phone.
  It goes on and on and phones don't always get security updates.
  You can do your best, but then longer you use a given phone the higher the risk. That's why people switch out phones frequently when doing shady or important shit

Okay first things first Jack Dorsey is a tool
The US government / CIA did in fact develop the protocol back in the day, with the goal of helping people in China and other countries message securely, probably with ulterior motives.
But the protocol itself is open source, and you can use it without any affiliation with the US government.
The claim " It looks almost as if big tech in the US is not allowed to build its own encryption protocols that would be independent of government interference 🐕‍🦺" is therefore so stupid it almost invalidates everything else being said because the person writing is either an idiot or purposely misrepresenting the facts.
Not having reproducible builds is definitely weird though. Does anybody have more information on that?
- Not having reproducible builds is definitely weird though.
  https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/blob/main/reproducible-builds/README.md
- Not having reproducible builds is definitely weird though. Does anybody have more information on that?
  They boast this as a feature, but on the instructions for how to do this for iOS, even Telegram admits "As things stand now, you'll need a jailbroken device, at least 1,5 hours and approximately 90GB of free space to properly set up a virtual machine for the verification process". Browsing the steps, it's extremely complex, and doesn't seem like something that is very user friendly and that you'd do weekly or monthly when a new version is released.
  On the GitHub issue linked to in the body, it's disingenuous to claim they refused to implement this, and that the technical hurdles Apple has in place make this extremely difficult which halted progress. In the community forums where the conversation was moved to, someone pointed out that even if you were to reproduce it on a jailbroken iPhone, that there's no way to confirm that non-jailbroken iPhones aren't receiving a version with a backdoor.
  And even if you are using a jailbroken device exclusively and can confirm the reproducibility of the iOS app, then the risk becomes the latest available jailbroken iOS could be outdated from the real versions, and you'd have other issues with not receiving timely security updates. This same issue applies to Telegram also.
  
  then the risk becomes the latest available jailbroken iOS could be outdated from the real versions
  Flipper0: iOS 17 Lockup Crash has entered the chat juuuust to be annoying.
- EagerEagle posted a good comment under this post going over the client code stuff, pretty enlightening stuff.
- My theory is that apple wont let the developer share there code for IOS because of "security"
  I remember an emulator (retro arch i think?) Got on ios at one point and was later removed because it showed apples file system layout. Which apples reason was "because it could be used to make malware for IOS"
  I feel like there is some similar thing with signal IOS

Maybe fix Telegrams privacy problems.
https://www.404media.co/this-tool-shows-some-telegram-users-approximate-physical-location/
- I can't read it because of the paywall but IIRC (based on a similar article) that was such a nothing-burger issue.
  People turned on an entirely optional (I think off by default setting) for some feature that allowed discovery of users by location ... and shocked pikachu they could be tracked or something like that.
  
  It’s not nothing if Telegram makes people believe they only share their location in a limited manner, but instead broadcast it to the whole world. That’s a serious breach of trust. I don’t know why Telegram users keep making excuses for that platform.
  
  Here ya go.

I don't think i care what Jack Dorsey says that isn't backed up independently. Even if he's right i just don't trust him.
- You shouldn't need to trust open source, it should be independently verifiable. Unfortunately that's not possible with either signal or telegram, as there's no way to tell what server code they're running.
  
  If encryption happens client side then it doesn't matter.
  Its where the server is open but the client is closed that we need to worry, as is the case with Beeper
- I'm wondering if Dorsey has any stakes in Telegram's crypto bullshit..

Telegram: We keep you private. Now enter your phone number to sign up.
- Signal does the same
- That breaks anonymity, not privacy
  
  You mean "confidentiality", not privacy.
  Just the metadata related to whether you personally, traceable to your full name and address, have a Signal account and how much you use it might be considered a privacy breach already, even if the content of the messages is confidential.
  
  It breaks both
- Signal is the same in that regards.
  
  Was

Yes, sorry, but I can't take something seriously if every paragraph begins and ends with an emoji. I know it's dismissive, but all my Facebook lunatic conspiracy theory alarm bells are blaring.
- It's more normal in Russian-speaking Web.
  Shouldn't trust this guy anyway, it's VK's founder talking.

The kettle calls the pot black...
- Is telegram not providing reproduce builds?
  
  Telegram isn't encrypting chats (only secret chats).
  As far as reproducible builds telegram has got instructions and caveats or excuses around builds for the same issues signal does: https://core.telegram.org/reproducible-builds#reproducible-builds-for-ios
  Both easily make Android reproducible builds. This Twitter message is a rock being thrown in a glass house, knowing most people who consume Twitter like it's a firehose, won't swallow the nuance of the details.
  I don't even, not to complete lengths.
  
  I don't know about reproducible builds, but Telegram has a slew of other problems. For example, they advertise that your messages are "heavily encrypted", but this feature is restricted to secret chats which is NOT the default method of communication and they use their own weird-ass algorhythm called ProtoMT instead of one of many existing algorhythms which have been audited and verified. Not to mention you need to give them your phone number to use the app.

Telegram is the only massively popular messaging service that allows everyone to make sure that all of its apps indeed use the same open source code that is published on Github.
Not true. Signal has a very similar client verification process to Telegram's, described here. The lack of an iOS reproducible build is an Apple limitation / nuisance.
It’s very complicated, the 2nd jailbroken device is necessary because there’s no other way to download the .ipa, but even if you manage to do that and bit-for-bit reproduce the .ipa you downloaded from source, there’s no way to know if the App Store is sending every user the same .ipa or if your other, non-jailbroken iPhone downloaded a backdoored one.
Telegram docs even acknowledge these limitations.
Ultimately, this client verification is not the selling point Telegram's founder makes it sound like, since most messages are not E2EE and the server code is closed.

This is also just a few days after Durov published Nazi dogwhistles in the latest Telegram update blog post.
https://plush.city/@PsyChuan/112336464469767051
- mostly because he got interviewed by tucker carlson, he said he has also given interview to a liberal reporter so as to show he is neutral and everyone has right to free speech
  
  Where's the interview with the liberal reporter, lol?
- Dammit... Thank you for sharing this.

I don't care about dorsey or whatever, but a lot of privacy advocates don't consider signal secure, drew devault for example. I'm def among them, you should not trust any centralized US-hosted service.
- Linking to their post to say it's a little bit more complicated that "it isn't secure" https://drewdevault.com/2018/08/08/Signal.html
- I'm all for Jami, and XMPP.

Saw someone post that City Journal article on mastodon a couple days ago and I'm amazed that so few people picked up that the City Journal and the article's author are basically puppets of the Manhattan Institute, a conservative think tank. I know most people aren't tuned to look out for think tank propaganda but it came off as really obviously FUD-y and unsubstantiated.

Still got server-side code closed source and by default messages are not encrypted.
- Not sure if you're referring to telegram or signal. If you're referring to signal:
  Is it private? Can I trust it? - Signal Support
  Signal conversations are always end-to-end encrypted, which means that they can only be read or heard by your intended recipients. Privacy isn’t an optional mode — it’s just the way that Signal works. Every message, every call, every time.
  The complete source code for the Signal clients and the Signal server is available on GitHub. This enables interested parties to examine the code for security and correctness.
  
  Reasonably sure they mean telegram. Only secret chats are encrypted. Telegrams chat otherwise is basically transport layer encryption.
  https://www.wired.com/story/telegram-encryption-end-to-end-features/
  
  Telegram :P
- Server-side source code is a red herring. It's meaningless, it can't be verified.
  The latter point is fair.
  
  Having server-side source code open can help into finding not on purpose backdoors. But yes, no one can verify that's the same exact version used by the actual servers.

One is open source and you can check the code while the other is not completely open source and uses proprietary encryption. That's right, proprietary encryption.

I wonder if their recent blog post promoting conspiracy theorists and right-wing people turned away more people from telegram than they expected and now they feel the need to spread FUD against their competitors.
- I missed this one, have a link?
  
  This is the blog post: https://telegram.org/blog/my-profile-and-15-more
  This is a post highlighting the problematic content of the blog post: https://plush.city/@PsyChuan/112336464469767051
  Though now that I'm more awake I think it's probably unrelated, I haven't seen this circulated around that much.

Yeah, he needs to fix his broken secret chat feature first... I think it's broken on purpose..
After seeing his interview with Tucker Carlson, I'm 100% sure the guy has some really dark agenda..
- What's broken there?
  
  It stops working after a while ( days or weeks ), your receipents will stop receiving your messages, and you'll not receive theirs, or you'll receive them with a big delay, it happens more frequently with iOS users
  most people have to go out of their way to start a secret chat, the user journey to activate it is too long, it's safe to consider it hidden...

Points 0 and 1: None of this is new. This goes back to 2011 or 2012.
Point 2: If someone gets hold of your phone and unlocks it (meaning, they can interact with it), they have access to your Signal messages on-board. This is why additional security measures (not using biometrics, encrypting your phone natively) are recommended. If your phone is off and someone dumps the data from it, they get encrypted data.

There is SimpleX also
- It has weaknesses as well but it isn't bad

You can verify builds on android. That's just an iphone problem.
Use Grapheneos if you need good security and privacy

I logged into Telegram today to this update from Durov. It reads like a bunch of hogwash from someone who is hiding something. They are eyeing investor funding soon, right? (EDIT: eyeing an IPO https://www.techopedia.com/news/telegram-eyes-ipo-as-it-aims-to-become-profitable-in-2025) A lot of things seem to be coinciding with him slinging mud about his competitors.

The article about Maher is written by a conservative who can't accept that we can limit individual freedom to reach true collective freedom.
Also he wrote for FoxNews lol
Stop spreading propaganda please, it's just a CEO trying to shill its product

Dorsey isn't that the guy who fell into the anti vacation rabbit hole and backed JRFK Jr ? I mean let's be honest. If these guys are concerned then I am pretty sure it's safe.

There is briar . Check it out .

I'll stick to Threema and Session, and SimpleX for those who use it. But thanks.

I find it weird how any discussion about Signal will inevitably have a bunch of people piling on dismissing any criticisms of it. Believing that Signal is perfect has become like a religion at this point. Whatever people might think of Telegram is completely irrelevant when it comes to the question of whether Signal is actually a secure tool or not.
The fact that people working on Signal have direct ties to US intelligence agencies cannot be ignored. No can the fact that Signal is a centralized system based in US. These two things alone should make everybody very concerned.

Imagine using telegram... It's worse than whatsapp
- Cannot agree about this.telegram have at least open clientsource code,and a lot pirated stuff u cN find in telegram channels. So if choosing between telegram and WhatsApp.Definitely Telegram.

well, this is concerning to hear. i had no idea signal was funded by the US state
- It is an eye raiser, but it is also somewhat of a red herring. Tor is a very solid privacy browser that started as a government project; not sure if they are still funded today. Nothing is ever going to be a perfect solution (cat and mouse game), but it does strike me that Telegram is more concerned about features than it is about privacy.
  
  oh damn, didn’t know about tor’s history either! thank you for the relief. faith restored cautiously
- Wait till you hear where the Tor money comes from. Funding is not a direct cause of issues.
  
  just learned through another reply, thank you for putting my mind more at ease brothers 🤝

On a different note, did anyone noticed a link to discussion on privacy, referencing this post (2x) on threema blog, see post: Chat Apps, Government Ties, and Transparency ?
PD, on the other hand ...
&
Then, PD chimed in
refs to this: --> https://lemmy.world/post/15169047
which was federated through .world but originally posted on ml.
rip rd

If someone really care about privacy you can use Session instead. Good luck!!
- Sarcasm ? An Australian company, with zero constitutional protection from a 5 eyes nation? It screams honey pot
  
  It's that or the CIA, your choice..
- session doesnt have perfect forward secrecy. they removed it from signals protocol to make it more easily compatible with their onion routing/crypto network. makes it one of the easiest apps to be "backdoored" if any keys were to be compromised.

Let's all just be adults and start using Matrix

I feel hustled, bc I recommended Signal to others :-( However, ANY contact with the US elite is a clear sign of the NSA/CIA/NED propaganda/spying network. I think It is safest for everyone, to voluntarily adopt the Russian, Chinese, Iranian, etc blocklist/firewall of western big-tech propaganda and spy methods, and seek out trustworthy open source. Oc Lemmy/federation as well as any other point of contact with the commoners are valid targets for these guy's, but a minimum of defense like that seems to be the only way to keep the US Capitalist elite out of our lives.
Anyway, bye bye Signal. Gnu? Alternative ?
- please get some more opinions on this, try to understand the arguments here better, before making up ur mind and believing the founder and CEO of a competing platform that u should switch away from their competitors
- Jami is the GNU alternative, if you're wondering
- I read something on the internet, so it must be true!

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