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chapotraphouse @hexbear.net
Angel [any] @hexbear.net

Why do I lack the ability to trust white people who claim to be progressive or leftist?

When a person of color, especially if they're black like me, affirms their support for causes such as queer liberation, feminism, animal rights, or socialism, I immediately feel that I can believe, with minimal doubt, that they're truly convicted and principled in what they're advocating for.

However, when a white person claims to support leftism, until my skepticism is proven wrong, I immediately assume they're a dishonest and performative libshit. I then proceed to interact with them with hefty amounts of caution. If my assumptions are proven true, I'm never shocked.

186 comments

  • My friend you fucking know why, it's the same reason why I don't trust self-proclaimed "progressive/leftist whites" until they prove themselves also, and it's also the reason why I tend to go out of my way to prove myself early on too. Like, I have touched grass and I have been to predominantly white activist spaces, I have seen white bullshit and I have done white bullshit. I have learned through all practical experience not to trust whites for even a second, especially not those who refers to whites as a """we""" or in any way identify with whiteness, as if "white" is an actual meaningful group identity rather than a fucking Indiana Jones sandbag of a """culture""" whose continued existence is inherently destructive and antithetical to decolonization, anti-imperialism, Black liberation, and socialism.

    You do not have to ask "why" you lack an ability to trust whites, you are in fact very wise to do so. It is not something you should feel guilty about, as if you're being racist by "judging books by their covers", it is in fact whites who are racist and it is on whites to prove themselves to you.

  • When you grow up white in America, there’s so much that you have to deprogram from your brain before you can even move left. I had some really shitty views as a kid and I know I held to those just because it was coconut tree in which I fell out of. And beyond that, so much of society is geared towards privileging whiteness, you have to actively work to break out of it.

    That said, I am grateful for people in my life who have called me out of stuff and have helped me be better. This is a reminder to all the white folks, if you get called out on something… apologize, understand - actually understand - where you went wrong, and be better.

    • That said, I am grateful for people in my life who have called me out of stuff and have helped me be better. This is a reminder to all the white folks, if you get called out on something… apologize, understand - actually understand - where you went wrong, and be better.

      Agreed. I'm much rather feel bad for a day because someone called me out, then make other people feel bad the rest of my life because of my ignorant and hurtful behaviour.

  • From experience, it feels to me that white people can never fully understand what racism means. I mean, they understand it on a cognitive and intellectual level, but perhaps never on an experiential level.

    It’s gotten to a point where I don’t even blame my white friends for not grasping certain issues anymore. It’s something that is very hard to internalize if you have never experienced it. As long as they promise to do their part of anti-imperialism from within the imperial core, I’m fine with that.

    • At a certain point you just have to believe what people of color say about their own lives and support them

    • I went to an all black school as a young kid (around 7) and it was the first time I ever got beat up and it was because I was white. I also got in a few fights after that being the only "cracker" in school and was called such. I didn't instigate anything I was a quiet kid and felt intimidated daily just being in school. I remember I would stay in class between classes and wait until the last minute and then run to my next class so I wouldn't get hit in the halls. We moved within a year after my mom was hit with a stray bullet from a shooting in the neighborhood.

      I wouldn't say what I experienced was full racism because an important element of racism is institutional (social and political, not just individual) and the political institutions weren't against me but I experienced an element of it in the closed social situation I was in during school hours for what its worth. I think there are other white people in America who have experiences like mine but it's certainly not common. I do think I understand racism in a fuller way than just conceptually.

      • I'm sorry this happened to you growing up. I think that experiemce did give you an understanding of racism in that, you were taught younger than most white kids that there are races in this country and that has a meaning. That said, many white people told me similar stories of being bullied by the Black kids at an all Black school(some use it as ammo that reversed racism exist). I believe for a lot of white kids it's the first, and possible only, time they're explicitly racialized, but it's regular school bullying for being noticeably different hence the context doesn't leave the school setting.

  • When a person of color, especially if they're black like me, affirms their support for causes such as queer liberation, feminism, animal rights, or socialism, I immediately feel that I can believe, with minimal doubt, that they're truly convicted and principled in what they're advocating for. However, when a white person claims to support leftism, until my skepticism is proven wrong, I immediately assume they're a dishonest and performative libshit.

    It depends, I do not trust any person of any race immediately when it comes to topics like LGBT rights or feminism for example. There are many homophobic and sexist people of all races. There are many performative people of all races. People are people, after all. However, when it does come to issues around race, I agree with you. I think most white people simply do not understand the concept of structural racial discrimination as they have no experience with being on the side that gets discriminated against because of their skin colour and/or ethnic group. Obviously there are exceptions, but as a whole Eurocentric thought, which includes white supremacy, has been dominant throughout the past couple of centuries.

    With regards to socialism, I find that in South Africa black people in general tend to have a much better understanding of what socialism is. I would say that is because part of the struggle against apartheid was based on socialism, and people from other racial groups, in general, have been influenced heavily by red scare propaganda or a comparador mindset.

    • I absolutely agree with that take. I was raised in a devout Catholic, Afro-Caribbean immigrant family who I had to completely cut ties with due to their very staunch opposition to LGBT people literally just existing.

      One thing I will say, though, is that within the queer community, black queer people certainly tend to treat me better than white queer people do, and that's for sure. I've noticed that white queer people seem to be more likely to have an exclusionary mindset, in having a higher chance of being one of those "LGB drop the T" people but also being racist towards queer people of color. It's horrifying how their lack of intersectionality can really lead to this kind of behavior.

      • I've noticed that white queer people seem to be more likely to have an exclusionary mindset ... but also being racist towards queer people of color

        Unfortunately this definitely exists, many white gays that want nothing to do with LGBT+ people of other races. I've seen it in South Africa. It's very sad. As the LGBT+ community, we're already a minority and further division over racist nonsense is just going to make us weaker and easier to oppress.

  • i can't really blame you at all. most progressive white people i've met start saying wild shit once they think you trust them enough.

  • Because that's how it keeps going. I have tried time and time again to ignore the little danger signs from White people and kept getting burned by some, even by self-professed leftists. Not by all, of course, but by enough to be wary. It's unpleasant; this hypervigilance around White people is a real burden and I wish it hadn't been forcibly inflicted on me, but that's what living in a White Supremacist society does.

    I find it helpful to differentiate between "White" and "white" people.
    Capital-W "White" means the person exhibits a lot of the toxic settler-colonial, imperialist, and casually racist behaviors that Amerikkkan society perpetuates.

    Lower-case w "white" means the person has skin tones that make them look like the Capital W's but they don't do that shit. They're actively antiracist, they're vigilant and purge any trace of white supremacy from themself, they're learning, and they support people of color in our fight against white supremacist fascism.

    It's not about skin color, and it's not even essential to who they are -- White people who rehabilitate themselves can become white people, that is, people whose skin is light but aren't being toxic or shitty in any way.

    A pretty basic litmus test I've found is checking how they feel about American Imperialism. If I say, "Joe Biden belongs in prison for what he did to Iraq" and they agree, then they probably understand on a visceral level that brown people are people. If they argue, that tells me they don't actually value our lives -- because it is fundamentally impossible to care about nonWhite lives and also be ok with any of these genocidal fucks.

  • It is reasonable to have these suspicions. In my everyday life I feel infuriated hearing the racist shit the white people I work with may bring up around me, since they assume that I'll agree with them since I'm white too. Most of the shit they talk about is their callous obsession with the oppressed migrants at the southern border. If that's what those people do openly and outwardly express, I can imagine just as well that there are white leftists who have not examined and gotten rid of all their prejudices. It's reasonable to think they have just used their knowledge of left norms and attitudes to hide it way better than the chuds I see irl. I'd say your vigilance is warranted.

    I hate how the continued existence of these racial hierarchies poison the minds of so many white people, teaching them a multitude of ways to be alienated from their fellow human beings. The task of the left in dismantling these oppressive hierarchies is a Herculean one, requiring massive socioeconomic changes and I at times despair when thinking of its chances of success in the heart of empire during such a turbulent time in human history.

  • This is how I feel about French people, unless they've explicitly clarified that they've read works by anti-colonial writers and have read the history of their evil empire and recognize the current imperialism of it today, they're a Nazi in my eyes.

  • ah 165 comments, surely its all just us dunking on the MLK quoting lib from yesterday? right? right? oh, struggle session too? most predictable hexbear thread.

  • I'm white and I still give a massive eyebrow raise to any other white person who claims to be leftist if I don't really feel like I know them

    • I feel like the most half-assed ones just say they're progressive, seems like a bigger red flag especially because even the best case isn't great

      • True, true. Personally, I've simply had too many former friends who were significantly less radical than what I thought they were when it really started getting down to it and it's starting to make me a lot more cautious/suspicious around other people with left leaning politics

  • I dead ass peace’d out from activism because of this shit.

    For some reason, a lot of people in the “activist community” are incredibly snotty and mean, too.

    • Oh, I guess I'm not the only one who has experienced that. Way too many people who think that being an "activist" makes them better than other people and therefore they can walk all over everyone else. In my experience it's just a small but very vocal group, not the majority though, if possible, maybe try interacting with different groups and orgs? My local Marxists are all useful idiots toeing the American government line on everything, but our local anarchists are ok when it comes to protesting and stuff, so I usually go with them, even if we disagree politically.

  • I am white (disclaimer)

    because most white leftists/progressives, in my experience, have not killed the plantation overseer in their brain. colonialism is the mind-killer, it's the little-death. understanding it and learning to hate it, to see it seep into everything in society is the difference, I think, between the progressive that wants to strengthen the settler-colony by keeping it's racist systems intact and making small changes, and the leftist who seeks to destroy the settler-colony and uproot it

    that's a hard thing to want to destroy something that benefited your ancestors and yourself to this very day- to want to end something that your told is your culture or your identity, maybe there's a bit of capitalist realism in there; you can't imagine anything else... but if there is evil in the world that would be it, the project of "whiteness".

    in the last few years I've come to challenge that internally, I guess. Why would I want to self-identify with a project that I think should be destroyed? I have a hard time trusting other white people in organizing if they haven't also come to that conclusion, or are at least working towards it, doesn't matter if they are a ML or a succdem

    • Correct. Plantation owner will not let them see that the west is evil. Imperialism is abstract without this. They still think of their country, western country, Japan as «good». The western countries and the western system will always be defended. The views change when it affected them. They will not destroy it.

      I think also that they like to believe something to be seen. It is an imitation of the liberal politician. Views do not have meaning because the system does not change.

      I do not know any white people, but this is what I have seen on the internet.

  • Whites can claim to be leftist or progressive or inclusive or whatever and then do nothing about dismantling the racist system that exists here (I mean why should they, considering that it benefits them the most).

    Assume all whites are racist until proven otherwise.

    • Assume all whites are racist until proven otherwise.

      No no no... They're not what I call necessarily racist but rather super-structurally privileged

    • Exactly this... because very often I don't realize that something banal to me is actually a privilege i enjoy.

      Please don't take it against us, we need more education! Some of us listen :)

  • Nah, that's fair. Not all white leftists are grifters or liberals, but it's good practice to assume a baseline of distrust until proven otherwise. Source: I'm white.

  • I grew up in an area that was mostly black and hispanic.

    I'm at the point where I hate other white people and I'm in a contradictory position of hating white people but also I definitely grew up white. I hate whiteness but not myself.

    Like I don't expect to be trusted because I see it, I understand that reaction, I don't trust white people either but the alternative is being by yourself all the time which I don't think is good either and itself kind of white.

  • I had a big long thing on how POC Jim Clyburn DSA DNC loyalists are the worst and held back progress. But as.

    I am afraid to critize POC here for many ignoring the warnings of the White Moderate so I'll just say I'm skeptical of everyone and and trust is earned.

  • I feel like this is just how it goes as a symptom of the inescapable perpetuation of oppressive ideology within our society.

    I only ever really feel safe around poc, socialist, queer non-men. I feel a natural kindred and love for everybody and especially the people of these categories but I also tend to notice when somebody is for instance a queer poc non man that is not a socialist and also a socialist poc who is not a queer or non man etc.

    It's the sad reality of the nature of ideology within a capitalist society that every single person will internalize the hegemonic discourses, and as we all know oppressed people will oftentimes even internalize the discourses about themselves.

    It's not an unwarranted assumption either as experience may prove, but we should and (clearly you do) still struggle to find unity with all who can be united!

    If it was easy to overcome the hegemony of a society we wouldn't need to be revolutionaries in the first place, and none of us are free from brain worms. Freedom is a constant struggle etc

  • Your experiences and opinions are completely justified. I'm white, and white people have a shit ton of unlearning to do by default, as others have mentioned. I'd like to believe that a lot of white leftists genuinely support and believe in progressive, socialist, or communist beliefs/movements, but it takes a lot of work to shift from always viewing everything from a white lens.

    I'll admit that I was a bit of a shithead until about 7 years ago when I got introduced to new ideas and began to truly listen to other people's experiences. When you're growing up in a primarily white suburban bubble, that kind of curbs social development if there isn't a lot of exposure to other peoples' and cultures experiences.

    Granted, it is a very common phenomenon that white leftists put on the air of revolutionary thought & rhetoric, but they're still more white than leftist. A lot of these folks never grow beyond just saying the right things, and the mask can slip off and they'll show their ass. That does make it difficult to sus out whether a white person is genuine or not, and I've run into it plenty of times myself.

  • When I first met my housemate she called herself a communist and has been doing everything to prove that she is just an awful radlib since then

  • I don't know how else to say this but if this is real you sound like such a weird person, do you actually get anything done in the organization where you practice this or do you only organize (and talk) with people who don't pass as white?

  • I don't think it's so weird or unusual to be at least a bit distrustful of the people that benefit the most from a country built off racism and colonialism. Fwiw I'm white, so I don't think it's my place to say more than that, but I have similar feelings to cishet allies who have shown their ass over the years. Of course it's not 1:1, but I feel like you can only be let down so many times before there's an asterisk next to ally* that doesn't go away for a while.

  • like in an org or online? Also, do you find someone who is more bold in their stance i.e. outright identifies whether they are a marxist or anarchist to be more trustworthy?

    • Compared to libshits who say stuff like "I'm a socialist!" when they actually mean they want Bernie Sanders type social democracy, it does open the door a little, but I know that they could still be very much prone to hard-to-excuse shortcomings. There are also people who identify with labels like "Marxist", "anarchist", or "communist" without a lot of conviction, believe it or not. They might bring it up if they are asked about it, but they'll never mention it in their life beyond that point, at least not enough to really understand why their whiteness could make them unaware of the holes they may have in how they view the matters of things like oppression and racial activism.

      • There are also people who identify with labels like “Marxist”, “anarchist”, or “communist” without a lot of conviction, believe it or not

        of course, didn't mean to imply otherwise sorry. i dont think there's anything "wrong" with it, it's quite rational to not trust white people (i am white, tbc), in that as you've said growing up as a white person can blind you to a lot, and if (pulling number out of my ass) 50+% of white leftists have this problem it would make less sense to not have some guard up. However, I do think it can be a mistake to go too far the other way and overtly trust someone for being a POC (not saying you are!), there are plenty of informants, compradors, etc, and even beyond that being genuine doesnt prevent someone from being completely misguided anyways. hopefully im making sense

        Ultimately, I view this as a failing of american orgs in not properly combating white supremacist tendencies in their membership.

  • That’s how I feel with self-proclaimed leftists in NATO countries. It’s almost always a radlib who wants to be politically daring. Online they’re mostly cool though. Most of the saner Marxist-Leninists from those countries are mostly found online.

  • The only white people i trust are David Gilbert, Judy Clark, and the United Freedom Front people.

    I’ve also met plenty of opportunistic and full of shit non-white activists. Just FYI. don’t get conned.

    But your instincts are correct. Most white people are not to be trusted to varying degrees.

  • I've congregated with white self proclaimed leftist/socialists who are aware of their "privilege" but still have weird views about "bad" neighbors that borderlines into fear. How white people talk about crime or "bad" areas is my litmus test.

  • Honestly this but cis people. Honestly this but trans/nb people that can't easily hide it. I don't trust anyone fully unless they have no choice in the matter but to fight back or die. I bet most of the people here would sit back as Trans people got exterminated if it came to it. Would I fight and die for a minority I'm not a part of? I would like to think so, but when the time to die actually comes that's gonna be fuckin' scary and I bet a lot of us won't pass that test, so POC not fully trusting white people like me makes a lot of sense even if it feels bad.

  • I know this is you venting, but it's because they're white, and in this racist settler colonial society, whiteness always comes first regardless of their professed ideology or whether they belong in any other marginalized community. A white fascist cishet man and a white socialist trans woman are just two white people when push comes to shove. I suspect you found this out the hard way.

    I only trust white people who either:

    1. Have biracial kids with a POC partner (although they're plenty of white fetishists and some biracial pairings like white dudes with Asian chicks are so filled with fetishists that I no longer find this reliable)
    2. Exclusively hang out with POC as the token whitey

    If a white person does both, then there's a good chance their anti-racist views are genuine.

186 comments