YSK: While you're on Lemmy/Kbin/Fediverse, you're not "the product" but you're also not "the customer".
YSK: While you're on Lemmy/Kbin/Fediverse, you're not "the product" but you're also not "the customer".
Why YSK: Getting along in a new social environment is easier if you understand the role you've been invited into.
It has been said that "if you're not paying for the service, you're not the customer, you're the product."
It has also been said that "the customer is always right".
Right here and now, you're neither the customer nor the product.
You're a person interacting with a website, alongside a lot of other people.
You're using a service that you aren't being charged for; but that service isn't part of a scheme to profit off of your creativity or interests, either. Rather, you're participating in a social activity, hosted by a group of awesome people.
You've probably interacted with other nonprofit Internet services in the past. Wikipedia is a standard example: it's one of the most popular websites in the world, but it's not operated for profit: the servers are paid-for by a US nonprofit corporation that takes donations, and almost all of the actual work is volunteer. You might have noticed that Wikipedia consistently puts out high-quality information about all sorts of things. It has community drama and disputes, but those problems don't imperil the service itself.
The folks who run public Lemmy instances have invited us to use their stuff. They're not business people trying to make a profit off of your activity, but they're also not business people trying to sell you a thing. This is, so far, a volunteer effort: lots of people pulling together to make this thing happen.
Treat them well. Treat the service well. Do awesome things.
Mostly what I feel is gratitude. Personally, I don’t have the skills, technical knowledge, or free time required to run even a small instance. I know I’m relying on the generosity of others, which makes me much more tolerant of delays, glitches, etc.
“If you’re not paying for the service, you’re not the customer, you’re the product.”
I see this everywhere, it’s the logical fallacy equivalent of “everything that’s rare has value”.
I’m sure most people, on the top of their head, can think of at least 3 products that are free to use and aren’t engineered to leverage their private information (Wikipedia anyone?)
What is true though, is that if you’re not paying for the product or service, SOMEBODY ELSE definitely is. So the question is: “who is paying for me? And why are they paying for me? What is at stake for them?”
While I agree and love the idea, it's going to be very difficult to keep things this way. Main two reasons are:
- It costs money to run a service like this as it expands.
- The temptation of the money to be gained from gathering data can be very hard to resist.
I'm honestly fully ready to see ads sprinkled throughout Lemmy instances (but the problem with that is that due to the federated nature, you can place load on one server through the API's without getting ads).
We've also already seen Beehaw defederate from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works due to the sheer volume of users creating issues around moderation (and probably server load as well) https://beehaw.org/post/567170. If that becomes a semi-constant issue I can see people leaving Lemmy, or at least not being as active as they would otherwise have been.
For now I'm enjoying things, finding it a bit "slow" but that's been a bit welcome, no more threads with thousands of comments drowning everyone out.
This post missed the most important part people should know: someone is footing the bill for you to use this service. If you're not paying, they will make their money in whatever what they choose. Potential resulting in you becoming the product. Yes, even on lemmy. So if your instance mod needs funding, kick em a few bucks, be their customer.
One of my favourite things about early days Reddit was it’s growing community of positivity. There was actual encouragement to be nice to each other and subreddits were built around celebrating stuff.
Negativity was downvoted into oblivion so you never saw that stuff on the All page and popular pages.
I’m seeing the same thing with Lemmy right now and hope it continues long into the future. The lack of profiteering should really help with this.
It has also been said that “the customer is always right”.
That's not really the saying, it's what everyone thinks the saying is, especially Karen's, but it isn't.
The saying is "the customer is always right, about the price". I.e. that value of a product is equal to what people are prepared to pay for the product, not what you'd like them to pay, as a business owner.
It has nothing to do with businesses have to appease customers, regardless of whether they're being ridiculous or sensible.
We’re all guests in an apartment building with an open door policy in a village of apartment buildings.
Help out your building owners with the utility costs if ya can, design some cool apartments for others to experience and visit, but most importantly: take care of your neighbors and commune with each other to grow a stronger community
We are guests.
I honestly think more instances should support some sort of donation or explicit customer model. Running such things is expensive, and sourcing money when things are ran for free is hard, so these kinds of platforms tend to be ran out of pocket, which makes them somewhat volatile. We don’t need to repeat the mistakes of big platforms and instead should build something sustainable from the get go.
To quote the first words of the old Dune movie:
"A beginning is a very delicate time."
What we should all take responsibility for is the health and quality of the community. We should be more active citizens, instead of the passive "consumers" we've all been corporately groomed to be.
I think more instances are the answer because this activity can't be cheap. maybe Lemmy.world splits off into 2 or 4 instances. Lemmy1.world etc
This dynamic will have to stabilize in costs. I don't know what that looks like.
If you're not paying for it, directly or through donations, you are the product. If you're not paying for it via donations, someone else is paying for you. Nothing really changes.
Put another way, this is a commons. You share the job of maintaining the commons, or you recognize that someone else is supporting you and you pay it forward when you can. Nothing is free, and we can lose these spaces if we don't take care of them.
Lets see what the future brings. As long as the user count is low there isn't much of a problem, but if instances suddenly have millions of users, it will get expensive for admins to run the service. If too few people donate (what is usually the case), admins are forced to search for other ways to finance the infrastructure. The other point is AI, wheter you like it or not, if Lemmy is big enough, the content (conversations etc.) will be used to train LLMs. Also, the content will certainly be interesting for advertisers to learn user preferences. The difficulty comes with scale.
There's a reason I've decided to contribute to whatever "primary" Lemmy server I end on.
Infrastructure costs money, and so does the admins time.
Let’s make lemmy the best community in the world without corporate greed!
The sentence “if you're not paying for the service, you're not the customer, you're the product” might be accurate, but it would make more sense to me to say that if you're not the customer, you're the worker.
Facebook and Twitter run on unpaid labor, mostly made by abuse survivors and especially teenagers. Twitter has been enshittified pretty fast so this has been the case since at least 2012. These aren't just scam, the long-running relationship between the scammer and his victims imply most components that you would find in a standard definition of abuse, including limiting their ability to conceptualize what's happening to them, for example with hard or hidden characters limits.
Edit : I've forgot to mention that, but Mastodon also optimizes for engagement, I believe that we needed that to get attention from the media and thus to gradually build migration waves. There are good reasons to use Mastodon, but there are also forms of abuse there, total institutions as would say Goffman – defined by their inmates' isolation within a differentiated society. So there's a lot of bullshit. If we want to get rid of that, we need people to use software that won't abuse them, such as https://bonfirenetworks.org.
Thank you for clearfy. Good thing to know.
This is so sweet and wholesome that I might faint from a sugar OD!
“If you’re not paying for the service, you’re not the customer, you’re the product.”
I see this everywhere, it’s the logical fallacy equivalent of “everything that’s rare has value”.
I’m sure most people, on the top of their head, can think of at least 3 products that are free to use and aren’t engineered to leverage their private information (Wikipedia anyone?)
What is true though, is that if you’re not paying for the product or service, SOMEBODY ELSE definitely is. So the question is: “who is paying for me? And why are they paying for me? What is at stake for them?”
That is magnificent 👏👏👏
Particularly in these early stages, really clear and transparent communication and plans are key I think.
Nice to see some info on the sidebar links, hopefully will be combined with posts and further info as things progress.
Help people buy into supporting the service they use, but knowing who they are supporting, why, and what their support via Patreon enables.
I think a lot of people would be happy to pay small amounts, but what are the running costs, and what is the roadmap and requirements and cost to scale and improve performance etc. What happens to additional funds over and above the running costs? (Fair compensation for time should be a thing!)
Another consideration is aside from the financial side, what other support will be required to scale and what are plans for that - additional admins, any other mods for "official" communities etc.
It's a very exciting time, delicate but full of potential!
While I understand what you're getting at, users can be viewed as "the product" if they are contributing content (posts, comments, votes, and other forms of engagement) and "the customer" if they are consuming this content in any way.
Without content or readers there would be no Lemmy, just like for Wikipedia with no editors or readers there would be no purpose for that site either. The terms "product" and "customer" aren't intrinsically related to monetary value.
It has also been said that “the customer is always right”.
If i'm not mistaken, the original saying was more along the lines of "The customer should always feel he's right". Anyway, the gist is that any side is "always right" should never be the mindset of any sane business or service.
Not entirely related to the topic, but something that I think everyone shold be aware of
It truly does remind me of the wide-spread forum days, but with the bells and whistles that comes from connectivity across the board.
Thanks a lot for the post! Super nice to hear. Would also like to point out that "the customer is always right" was originally meant for sales. I.e. if they want a meat themed car, sell it to them, dont tell them its in bad taste. So for more ways than one treat those that serve you with respect. Theyre serving the community, not your servants.
...I'm sorry, but blind positivism won't get you, Lemmy and nothing else to anywhere. Nothing is perfect neither free of "predatory capitalism" -- one day, you will "be the product". And there is nothing you can do about it, because this world ain't a fairy tale where we've got fairies flying around and giving us anything we want -- we need money. And lots of it.
Shout at me, swarm at me with negative downvotes like it's the best thing you can do (which probably is), but this is the real world, giving it to you with a couple words, fair and square.
I kinda like looking at Lemmy as a sort of Internet Pub on steroids (Activity Pub). Kind of like a busy street with all kinds of pubs, libraries, bookstores etc. But where those places have something to sell like liquor, coffee or books, Lemmy does not really have anything to sell but just offers a place of conversation. It alsof isn't for everyone, anybody can join but each pub had their own rules.
I see a Lemmy admin like a barkeeper of one of the many pubs around. We sit in this one pub with one owner but we meet a lot of people from other pubs around. And if we like, we can walk across the street and visit somewhere else or even move there permanently. We have options, we as users have more power and especially actual alternatives to go to.
Donating is a thing to help the pubs keep existing. Like tipping the waiter. I'm a big fan of OpenCollective and Patreon for how they allow these small groups of people to take back parts of the internet for themselves!
There is no need to commercialize this space, it's largely for conversation. Here there is no need for the waiter tot eastdrop on conversations, to make the pub all smart or to guilt you into a VIP pass tot enter.
I really hope we can find a way to tip the waiters and barkeepers incidentally like we would in a pub. Like a donation, and maybe also a more prominent place like a tip jar for the instance visible in posts or just the website. I think we can make it work, if we really try.
Yeah the big pubs might come knocking, but its up to each of us to decide if we want to visit any of their places.
The comparison to Wikipedia is a really good one.
While we're at it, big thanks to the instance owners :) I'm donating an Euro a month, it's not a lot but at least something
Thank you for the reminder, it's a breeze of fresh air with all transparency on this platform that's we're not used to - coming from Reddit. I can only hope that this "movement" persists and that lemmy or any similar fediverse app will eventually become the norm. It certainly feels inevitable to me, having seen that the grass is greener on this side
for now. dont the developers and admins of lemmy run lemmy.ml which stands for marxist Leninism because the admins are marxist?
if you’re not paying for the service, you’re not the customer, you’re the product
So, were you all getting paid by Reddit for content and moderation? Because if Reddit wasn't paying for the service, that would make them the product too...
That saying breeds a complacent skepticism. Even if you pay for a service, that doesn't stop the provider from making you a product. Likewise, not paying may mean there's mutual benefit.