1y ago

If Baldur’s Gate 3’s Lae'zel Were Male Fans ‘Would Be More Forgiving’, Dragon Age Co-Creator Says

www.ign.com If Baldur’s Gate 3’s Lae'zel Were Male Fans ‘Would Be More Forgiving’, Dragon Age Co-Creator Says - IGN

The co-creator of the Dragon Age franchise has commented on the reaction to one of Baldur’s Gate 3’s main female characters, saying fans “always treated male characters with more forgiveness”.

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This encounter was contrasted with the player’s first encounter with Morrigan, the much-loved Dragon Age character. “It does everything right to make you like the character, before showing you her darker side,” Clark said of Morrigan's introduction in Dragon Age: Origins. “I don't think they did this with Lae'zel.” Gaider dismissed this suggestion, saying “it truly does not matter”.
That's the best part. Why would you like a character male or female that is openly hostile to you? You wouldn't. That's the point. She isn't your friend (at least towards the beginning), you simply share a common goal with this githyanki. I wouldn't be more forgiving if she was a guy. She's still being an asshole to me. But it works especially for evil playthroughs as the relationship works totally fine as something that's just transactional in nature.
You know who I couldn't forgive? Alistair. All he needed to do was shut his damn jackass mouth for 10min. Really hard for me not to see him in Gale everytime I talk to him.
- I have a soft spot for Lae'zel. I had it before I started learning more about her. Idk, I think early on I was just like this person is literally an interdimensional space pirate who has a culture literally alien to me. It made me more accepting of her.
  
  I view her as more of an inter-dimensional space Nazi. She believes her race is superior to all others and is part of a conquering empire. Non-Gith are automatically considered slaves by her peers.

Forgiving of what? Her dommy mommy sex scenes?
Her adversarial nature? My dudes, she is actually quite tame for a gith and if you play deeper into her story line, you'll discover that and also get her to stop being a bitch to everyone she's first meeting. Can't blame her for being an asshole when she takes orders and worships an evil lich (whom she doesn't even know is an evil lich) that raised her and others of her kind to be unquestioning killing machines.
- Yuck
  
  What’s the yuck for?
  
  Taste!
- Forgiving of what? Her dommy mommy sex scenes?
  Not if you're my little boss halfling. She's a fighter with points in intimidation. Lae'zel tried the dom thing on me, and I said "That's not how thing is going to work, you're going to submit to me".
  
  Same here! I did have to burn a point of inspiration for a re-roll but it was so worth it!

Lae'zel was my favorite origin character and who I ended up romancing and sticking with through my playthrough.
I wouldn't have expected that going into it, but I found her writing to be probably the most complex and interesting arc out of everyone.
Whereas Shadowheart, who I went into it thinking would be the one I'd want to romance, was insufferable by halfway though and I was regularly wishing she had less relevance to the core plot.
I'm glad Lae'zel wasn't male, and honestly I find the suggestion annoying given that the entire plot around the Githyanki is extremely focused on the matriarchal nature of the society.
More Amazons in our media, please.
- Shadowheart and Lae'zel both annoy me and I really use neither if I can help doing so. Granted, I'm still getting to the side quests in Act 1 before moving on, so grain of salt, but they both currently occupy one end of an uninteresting extreme imo — Shadowheart the shrinking little flower that needs saving, Lae'zel the shallow, judgy barbarian I'm shocked to hear would have an arc.
  I dislike her because she's unendingly rude and violent for no reason, even when the occasion would go over better if she chose to cool it. If she were male, I'd still hate ~~her~~ him because it's every time he opens his mouth. Nobody likes a dick bag.
  As noted in the article, Astarion IS pompous and mean, but the important part is he's snarky instead of outright abusive, is rarely outwardly violent, and does what he does in a way that's funny. I keep him on my team purely to hear him backtalk Wyll and reminisce about hedonism and do not get the sense at any point that he would hit me over the head with a club and drag me into a cave.
  If he acted all rough and edgy and broody instead of intentionally looking for amusement via horrifying randos just to see what they do, I'd consider him the world's most boring fanservice.
  Anyway, the actual shining gem is Karlach and I'm increasingly in disbelief that I've seen no one singing her praises. I usually do find female characters underwhelmingly written and moments like Karlach are very needed reminders that I'm not some weird misogynist, I just hate bad writing and it's everywhere. I fell INSTANTLY in love with that energy and remain so.
  Ultimately, I may not like the one, but I am glad we're able to do Warrior Female now and go all the way with actually making them warriors. More Amazonians in media!
  
  One of the keys to writing a compelling arc is to start somewhere you can juxtapose against with where you end up.
  Both of your characterizations of the characters may not remain the same as you play though.
  Of course, the cool thing about what Larian did is that whether they do or don't depends a lot on player interactions and choice.
  You may have a very shallow Lae'zel by the end of her arc in your game depending on both certain choices and the roll of the dice.
  
  Karlach is ride or die. Lae is actually more likeable to me because she likes Karlach.
  
  Me in a long rest, the section of the game I'm instructed to shoot the shit with the other characters to learn about their motivations:
  Hey lazel, what do you think about our situation?
  Her:
  Hold your tongue idiot, you'd do well to act more and speak less.
  Me: alright well fuck me I guess. Enjoy sitting in camp from now on, you're benched.

Mostly kept away from news about BG3 story because I'm playing it and don't want to be spoiled. Had no idea that there might be "backlash" against Lae'zel. Though I'm not going to read much stock in an article that's just a bunch of tweets compiled together.
Had plenty of RPG characters not to be to my taste in other games, but my complaints usually only come in if there's too many of them within a single game. I kinda want to know there's a range of characters to explore with, shows breadth. Certainly if it were a full palette of whiny brats then I'd probably bounce off the game.
My only complaint so far (and I know there's been posts in this area) is just how fucking horny people seem to be. I'm trying to buddy up with party members and they're taking it as me coming on to them. I feel like I'm walking on egg shells when picking some responses in fear it'll get me shoved into the sex pen with them. I'm also surprised at how fast relationships develop. I'm still in act one and have had 3 or 4 people in my camp express their wishes to bed me. Dudes, we've just met and yer boi has a fucked up STD like wriggler in my eye.
- Maybe the parasites in your heads want to kiss?
- The backlash to her seems to mostly be on Twitter, oddly enough. Folks in the Twitter thread were pointing out how it’s just on Twitter and that she’s a favorite on Reddit.
  
  So, another one of those "author mistakes twitter for real life" articles?
  
  I wonder how many of those criticisms have a blue checkmark next to them.
  I bet almost all of them are adorned with the blue badge of self-fragility.
  
  Because she’s just as argumentative as your average Redditor and thinks she’s infallible just like your average redditor lol

Nah, assholes are assholes, her personality is just so confrontational that I don’t want to deal with it. I don’t think gender has anything do with not wanting every conversation to be a small fight full of insults.
- It's true. If anything, people are more tolerant of women being this way. Where a man would get a fist in the face, a woman will get polite or even good treatment, especially if she's pretty.
  
  Take your thinly veiled Jordan Peterson type misogynistic woe is man takes elsewhere. People aren’t more accepting of aggressive women and more than aggressive men, all are off putting.

lae'zel is perfect - well written, well voiced, a bit tanky, adds tension. there's nothing to forgive. boy gamers are notoriously sexist. this is their problem, not larian's.
- She might be my favorite of the bunch. I'm at a pretty cool part of her story, I won't elaborate on, and I appreciate her abilities to lay waste to those that oppose her.
- She's a very well written abrasive, abusive, xenophobic, domineering space Nazi. Which, I mean, yeah cool I just don't want to be around her. In fairness I hate Astarion more and find Shadowheart obnoxious to the point that I rerolled cleric just to not have her around. I'm 50-50 on Vampire Twink vs. Emo Priestess being more annoying to talk to, but at least twinky does his job well and provides some useful burst damage. My cleric does a much better job as a healer and support caster.

Oh look, a click bait IGN article! And no one was shocked
No it wouldn't have mattered. She's a single minded, xenophobic , zealot asshole. That wasn't my jam for the first play through. I barely tolerate shadowheart, but she got heals and sacred weapon. I'm a devotion paladin and I will smite their god(s)!

My problem with Lae'zel is that she shares too many major story beats with Shadowheart. But individually they are good characters and we aren't spoiled for choice with 6.5 origin characters and a few more plot relevant companions. Her story works well for a Gith and it's good that we have a Gith companion option with how relevant the illithid are to the plot.

Bruh, ~~Bae~~ Lae’zel is what I’d expect if they gave Morrigan from DAO a superiority complex.
Still in Act 1 so I got more to explore, but she is by far my favorite character of the bunch so far along with Astarion.
- What do you mean, “if”?

Well........I don't think so?
People love Morrigan from DA:O and she's pretty much a jackass. Made me want to pull my hair out at times, but there's a charm in that making a bad girl go soft in the end.
We shouldn't just slap or imply a "sexist" label when people don't like a character or not, although there's always going to be a variance.
Is there a good example or reason they say this or are they just guessing?
- Morrigan was hot, that's why people loved her. We even see it in BG3, Shadowheart is as confrontational, especially towards Lae'zel but people are fawning over Shadowheart because she is hot.
  But I think a lot of backlash towards Lae comes from people who don't know D&D. They aren't aware of how dangerous Mindflayers really are. And they also aren't aware of Githyanki and their relationship with Mindflayers. If you take these things into consideration the actions of Lae become much more reasonable.
  Shadowheart's struggle are much easier to relate to. Which is part of the reason for people siding with her over Lae'zel.
  With male characters people are more forgiving because they don't consider a romance option.
  
  I find Shadowheart way worse than Lizzy.
  Though, I think the general statement holds true. This is absolutely not the first time this happens. A big example would be TLoU 1 & 2 with Joel vs Ellie. The sheer amount of Joel apologists that I had to talk with over the internet is immense, but Ellie doing equally shitty things is somehow seen as so much worse. It also shows that people don't even want to bother looking deeper into those characters either. They're just set in their ways & opinions, literally stuck.
  
  With male characters people are more forgiving because they don't consider a romance option.
  …do you think only straight men play this game?

Forgive her for what? Perfectly complementing my Lolth-sworn drow's vibe? She's the shouty armored one and I'm the one who wears a dress to a fight and is scarier when I'm quiet, and together we're cutting a bloody swathe across the Sword Coast and looking great doing it.
- Your comment is wonderfully colorful with your descriptions that I wish you would write more about your adventures and expand upon it in an actual D&D session.

People don't like lae'zel?? She's by far my favorite. Please more strong women who want to fuck me.
My woman friend who I got to play a little co-op was also immediately like "she's hot. I like her", and found shadow heart to be a little whiney.
- Right? She’s by far my fave so far. She’s not at all boring.
- Yes Shadow heart is kind of making me regret saving her, maybe I should have tried stealing her Cube and telling her to fuck off. Actually my party probably does need a cleric. Then again I'm a druid so does it really?
  
  Shadowhart is a weird character in general due to her reluctance to share and what her actual background is.
  It's gets so fucking weird once she admits to being a Sharran, but she's so sweet and nice and every other Sharran we encounter is some fucked up Silent Hill monster of a person and she doesn't even seem concerned by it.
  In the House of Healing watching the Surgeon work
  "Uh... Shadowhart? Is this really what Sharrans do?"
  "Yeah, why?"
  "It just seems... A little fucked up."
  "What's so fucked up about inflicting pain and loss?"

She's a hell of a fighter. So what if she worships a lich and wants to step on my testicals because I'm good in battle. We all have our quirks.
- Late game they also feed you a bunch of strong gith fighter specific gear. Which is a bummer because I respecced her into a Tavern Brawler monk and she just shreds through shit like that. But, like Shadowheart, her story is so central to the plot, so she gets a ton of support and development. Gale is also pretty closely linked to the main plot, but Astarion and Wyll sort of aren't. Karlach is but I think her rewrite trimmed out on content (unless I'm missing something major in the last like 3 quests I have left in Act 3, which is possible).
  I'd say that in terms of importance to the overall story, it's Tav, then Lae'zel, then Shadowheart. Lae'zel just has key story elements in every act that are personal to her, be it mind flayer or githyanki specific business. Shart's Act 3 is a little less central, but she's essentially the star of Act 2.
  All that's a long way of saying, she has an interesting arc and a lot of race specific gear support to help her shine mechanically. More people need you give her a chance, even in good playthroughs, if they haven't already. I had her benched all act 1 as a very good paladin, then added her when we got to the creche stuff and never looked back.
  
  Oh man, her as a brawler monk sounds so bad ass lol.

The only reason why I don't use Lae'zel is because Karlach exists and she's a goddess (who also fills a similar party niche)
- Lae’zel has been benched since I got Karlach. Karlach just hits so, so much harder and has so, so many hit points.
- My first play-through I one-shotted Karlach while she was moping. Didn’t catch on she was a party member until later.
  
  Well, you get to keep the OG Wyll appearance in that case!
- Team Karlach forever! We just need a Bard so I can stake Astarion and never look at his smug, sadistic ass ever again.
  
  There is a bard but she is easy to miss.
  Alfira (the teeth-ling bard in the Emerald Grove) can join you. But you have to have the Dark Urge in your party and do a unique interaction that afterward will allow her to join you. In solo, the only way to have the Dark Urge is to select it as your PC.

I love my girl squad! Lae’zel and Karlach are my BFF’s. Shadowheart just finally got back in my good graces and is finally allowed to come away from camp. Asterion is on a time-out. Ugh. Gale is Gale.

I don't like her, but I used her a lot. I hate Astarian so much that he's never in my party. A lot of the npcs have unlikable elements
- Astarion I absolutely cannot stand either.
  
  I love Astarion. My character is pretty evil for the first run so he fits in nicely too

They're probably not wrong, but... Lae'zel seems pretty popular from what I've seen? Now that we're out of Early Access and needling her is no longer the best amusement that can be wrung out of her.

Sadly this is continuously true, it is hard to write a female character that a mainstream audience will accept, because if they aren't competent enough they are annoying, but if they are too competent they are a Mary Sue.
Sadly we see this kind of shit happen in real life all the time, if Donald Trump is screaming at people it just proves what a real man he is, but if in the same debate Hillary Clinton is talking in a normal voice, people ask her why she's yelling.

I'm just confused how everyone has got so far, met so many people, and read so much backstory!
For a start my inventories are such a mess that I have no idea if any of it is important, I've never bothered to try out any other characters beside my main party because I don't want to move equipment around it's hard enough getting my main party members wearing the best thing they're carrying and I'm sure I'm missing out on things because they get lost in my inventory without being read or accidentally sold before I need them - having things lost in second characters inventories while they loiter in the camp would be super annoying.

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