Framework vs Macbook laptop?
Framework vs Macbook laptop?
I apologise if this is the wrong community to post this in, I wasn’t sure which one was ideal.
I’m suffering a difficult decision of choosing between a Framework laptop or a Macbook Air (M1, 2020). I really like the ethical principles of Framework, i.e. you actually own it and can repair it any time, leading to an increased longevity. At the same time, I have heard people claim Macbook is superior in almost all aspects (especially battery life).
I know both Apple and Microsoft are greedy CorpGiants, but seeing as I have an iPhone, I figure it would be easier using a Mac? But then again, the prices really are not worth it, especially considering it costs a lot to repair them. I have 0 experience with Linux, and this computer will be used at school, so I suppose it stands between macOS and Windows.
I guess I just want some advice? Or some guidance and comparisons. Is 8GB enough for a Framework laptop? The 16GB version costs nearly as much as the Mac I’m looking at, hence my hesitance. If anybody has some experience using Framework and / or Macbook, I would love to hear about it. What are some pros and cons? Which people are better off with FW and Mac respectively?
Thank you!
*Edit, forgot to mention: I need a Swedish keyboard on the computer, and Framework apparently only offers English. This is the largest obstacle preventing me from leaning towards FW.
8GB is not enough memory these days. But you can always add memory later.
Not for the MacBook, it's soldered in. So he will have to upgrade the whole thing. The M1 is one of the best laptops I've used (for work), but you have to choose the right specs at the beginning, otherwise you will be in a pickle.
It’s more than soldered in—it’s in the actual processor. It’s why you can’t desolder the RAM and replace it, even if you were that talented. It’s the downside to SOC. I hope that the new RAM technology called CAMM works out and becomes popular enough to fix the SOC trend.
You are correct, I was thinking of the framework, but I didn't mention that in my comment.
True on Framework (add more later), not on MacBook Air. But even though my main machine now has 64GB, I found my first-gen MacBook Air (2020) was great with 16GB. However, depends what you need to throw at it.
You can always upgrade the memory, and storage of the framework laptop, so you can start with the 8GB and then pick up more pretty cheap later.
One of the best things about the framework is that you don't have to pay for a package upgrade of parts if all you need is just one thing to upgrade.
Also, when you do need to update something, you can just get a new motherboard and memory, and not have to buy a whole new laptop.
Honestly, just get the framework, unless there's a real reason you need a Mac.
You can also update the processor when they release new parts.
And you don’t have to run Windows, put a nice flavour of Linux on it for that fast feeling. Or rip everything out of Windows with something like the AME wizard.
Thanks for this comment! Everybody on Reddit says to get Macbook instead of Framework, so it’s nice to have some differing opinions.
If you want to be the "cool guy" then macbook is your choice, it will cost more and repair is risky to be done by anyone except apple himself.
If you want to have a laptop, that is easy to repair,upgrade and is cheap but powerfull then Framework laptop.
On macbook you are locked into apple, you cant upgrade, you can only get support by apple and most of the time third party stuff doesnt work right on macbook. On Framework laptop you are more open to do anything, like upgrading, switching OS if windows isnt right for you. Framework is a lot more open and listens to the community.
I have the m1 macbook air, and its wonderfully performant and long battery life for how I use it... mostly just word-processing and web-browsing.
But the repair concerns are legit, when I decided to get the macbook, I decided I was going to play apples game and opted to get their service plan. I've had apple care+ on a tablet before and their service is great when you don't have to pay their ridiculous repair fees. So at a rate of $100 per year, I'm essentially leasing my laptop after I bought it. I have it automatically backed up to my home server, in the event that one of their stupid engineering designs destroys my data (See Louis Rossmann videos).
Idk if I'd ever really recommend anyone get a macbook if they don't need to, personally, the battery life and standby time are just killer features for me. I have ADHD, and frequently forget to charge my laptop.... if I'm not on my meds and I pick up my laptop to do something and its dead... I'm not going to do that thing. With the macbook, I make next to no conscious effort to keep it charged. If it's under ~20% and I happen to be near a charger, I'll charge it. And thats the extent of me managing the battery.
My wife on the other hand, her windows machine (and most seem to have this problem as I understand) is always dead. She's resorted to putting it into full hybernation mode (significantly slower to wake up) and even then, it somehow seems to still lose quite a bit of battery in between uses.
Aside from that, its light, small, its sturdy. I use windows for work and for gaming on my desktop, so I've got not strong aversion to it, its pretty much just the battery life and standby thats the killer feature for me. So... yeah, thats my take. If the battery situation isn't a big deal for you, go for the framework. They seem like a solid company, making solid laptops, that are easily and affordably repairable and upgradable.
But the repair concerns are legit
Speaking as someone who has disassembled multiple Macbook Airs from multiple generations: Fuck working on Macbook Airs, and Macs in general.
I personally will never buy an Apple product at any price for any purpose, for a multitude of reasons. My preferences aside, if you ever want to work on your own machine Apple is objectively the wrong answer. OP is really looking at two machines that are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum, here.
Funny, I was just watching something about framework! It's got some discussion of various framework reviews and the pros and cons of the machine.
https://www.youtube.com/live/KDIXNRgnDWQ/?t=21m49s
With framework being a new company, looks like they're working out some bugs, but they're doing it quickly and transparently. The laptop costs more per performance than other options, but since you can upgrade it down the line, you can save money in the long run.
Compared to a MacBook, it really depends on the applications you use. Video editing is likely going to be better on mac, but good luck trying to game on it. Mac has better battery life, but you'll pay an arm and a leg to repair anything, sometimes being cheaper to buy a whole new machine than pay their exorbitant prices.
So it all depends on the use case, but I'd go with framework. I care that the company isn't adversarial, and it would work for what I use a laptop for.
My place of work uses macs at work, I like them though I'm fairly platform agnostic. I have windows PCs for home theater use, and Linux laptops for personal use. I like macbooks but loath the complete lack of upgradability. We have so many old macs that just get scrapped. PCs are no different, but this is my workplace. If you have to buy a laptop, buy a used one and wipe it or buy a framework. Framework laptops should be upgradable for close to a decade by their vision. That's without third party support. Support a vision for a consumer rights future or buy used IMO.
8GB of RAM wasn't enough for me to use in either person or professional contexts in 2006. My work laptop has 16GB and I'm constantly running low on RAM when I'm working with spreadsheets and relatively simple Photoshop projects. I'm not talking about games or compiling code either.
I would not be looking at systems with fewer than 16GB of RAM for any user for any reason in 2024. And for myself I would not be buying any systems with fewer than 32GB of RAM.
(My personal desktop has 64GB and so far that's been sufficient but I have nearly capped it out when running substance painter, blender, unity, etc.)
So it really all comes down to the software you use. But my advice is to consider 16GB the absolute minimum.
Just to note for anyone reading this later on. Being low on ram doesn't mean you need more ram, Modern operating systems, especially Windows and MacOS prefer to utilise all available ram, it's hard to guage how much you need because of this. To be safe if you're buying a Laptop or Desktop for professional use in 2024 16gb is the minimum and 32gb is recommended.
Apple claims their OS needs less RAM (I have no clue) but for OP running Windows 8GB is no where near enough.
They can claim that all they want to, but once you actually start running stuff on the computer that's BS. Accessing the same website in the same browser on different platforms will use the same amount of RAM. Opening the same files on different platforms will use the same amount of RAM.
RAM is where things are put for active use, and it turns out that all files are the size of their content regardless of platform and thus take up the same amount of space in use.
While the base OS of one vendor might have a smaller foot print than the other, that doesn't matter once you actually start using the damn thing. If you spec your machine on the misguided marketing that "you need less RAM" your gonna have slower load times and longer waits when switching between apps as the OS needs to access the storage.
My work laptop is a MBpro with 32gb of RAM. It is very easy to max out it's RAM and with an unbounded swap system very easy to max out my disk space too. When that happens it's a bad crash and lost work.
My personal computer is a custom built desktop running Windows and Linux with 64gb of RAM. It is harder to max out it's RAM though I have done so and it frequently uses more than 32gb of RAM.
Apple has low memory behaviour way better optimized than Windows, so running at 8GB will not be as painful as it is with windows - but in the background the OS will constantly shuffle stuff around to avoid running out of memory, which costs performance.
16GB is the bare minimum for computer nowadays - and that applies to macs as well. I'm currently using a 16GB air m1 for some things, and I also regularly run into performance issues due to memory limits without doing heavy stuff.
Look at an older year of framework too
I think the framework one is better because you can get a cheaper version now and upgrade it in time. I don't know the specific specs of both laptops, but Apple products are usually overpriced, so look at all specs, the same price might not be the same specs, e.g. CPU might be weaker or no dedicated GPU.
That being said I understand where the love for Apple comes from, their products are very slick and because they control both hardware and software they can get some heavy optimisations.
Finally if you care about privacy enough to question getting a Mac, you should give Linux a try, it's not hard, most people suffer for trying to do things the windows way, but you would already have suffered that if you went with a Mac.
If you're considering a framework laptop I can't imagine you'd want to be stuck on Apple software/silicon.
Are you only considering the hardware/price, or also the software side?
Which OS'es do you have experience with, and/or preference for?
The previous Mac I used was the first one they made with a colour screen (yes, I'm that old). Then last year I got a Mac laptop and I wanted to love it ... but man, that OS is getting in my way something fierce! To such an extent, in fact, that I switched over to my own (arguably inferior) Thinkpad that's been running Linux since forever.
Just go with framework, it is going to better in every single way, I would probably install linux on it if I were you. (you expressed your concerns about microaoft being an evil corporation)
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I will be studying cyber security and network infrastructure with some limited script programming. I understand it is far easier to use Windows if you study in engineering.
I am interested in Linux, but seeing as Microsoft is very closed-off (cannot use installed versions of Microsoft365), I am a bit unsure if I want to fully commit to it. I am absolutely willing to try running it and getting a feel of it, though.
What does the process look like when you install Windows on your own? Is it difficult / costly?
Having an iPhone won’t make Mac any easier, but it will be more integrated. Lots of nice convenience features like a shared note library and your text messages can be interacted with from the laptop.
Not sure what the cost difference is, but considering your other messages were talking about starting out on the path of cybersecurity, a more open platform that you can run Linux off of would probably trump the conveniences.
I think you want the MacBook. I like the ethical principles behind Framework too, but they come with a learning curve. You might only save money if you fix it yourself, are you willing to learn to do that? It will have to run Windows, do you know whether it will run Windows 11, will you have you install and configure it yourself, if so do you know how to do that?
Meanwhile, if you buy a MacBook it will last a good seven or eight years before you need to replace it, at least if you get the 16 GB of RAM (but maybe 8 is enough, 8 has been the standard for like a decade already, maybe software developers finally reached the point where their objective is to do more with less). Sure sometimes Apple comes up with bad hardware like the butterfly-switch keyboard but if you’re getting hardware that’s basically the same as last year check out the news and reviews, anything that bad and people will be talking about it. Also if you buy a MacBook, Apple tries its best that everything just works. The easiest learning curve there is. You may pay a premium in price up front but over seven or eight years you might end up spending less.
For the first year of ownership, if it ever has a problem (that wasn’t clearly caused by you dropping it) you can make an appointment to drop it off at an Apple Store and just pick it up when they fix it. You can buy AppleCare to extend that year into three years. If you’re a resident college student your school’s computer support center might be an authorized repair center and fix it. With a MacBook you are unlikely to incur any repair costs ever so long as you don’t drop the damn thing.
So you have to decide what sort of person you are. I’ve been building and taking apart computers for years, I’ve been a Linux user since 1999, and sometimes I want a project like a Framework to tinker with, but sometimes (especially when I went to college) I want something dependable that just works without having to fuss with it, and that’s Apple. That’s what you’re ultimately choosing, and whether that’s worth the (up-front, at least) price premium.
btw you can get apple care indefinitely if you pay annually. I've decided throught his mechanism I'll essentially lease my macbook. Paying $100/year for the peace of mind that they'll fix anything thats wrong with the laptop until I decide to ditch it. Its probably worth keeping an eye on the used market to decide when its economically optimal to just drop the applecare and just replace the laptop in the event of it needing to be repaired.
Worth noting, you may have to be a stern self-advocate to get certain things fixed because they will sometimes pull some bullshit excuse that its not covered under applecare/warranty because of xyz, and xyz isn't even true (see Louis Rossmann / CBC News videos)
You nailed it here. It's all about the willingness of the user to maintain it.
The integration part from OP: I don't understand why anybody wants to be locked into a single ecosystem. If the company pivots/does something weird, you have a LOT of history you have to untangle. Google for instance.
But in spite of that, Macs just work without fuss. And I say this as a mac hater for years, and now forced to use one for work.
Framework hasn’t been around that long, and is more likely to go out of business than Google or Apple. Even if the design of its parts is open-source (I’m not sure whether they are), you’d have to find someplace to make the parts for you. Also how many businesses have started with open-source stuff then taken over by people who in order to make them profitable make them go proprietary?
Are they comparable in price? What is it that you actually do with your computer?
I will be studying cyber security where we will do some script programming (but no heavy programming at all), otherwise I use it to stream movies online and watch Youtube. That’s pretty much what I do with my current school-prescribed computer.
I’ve worked on dev tooling in a fairly large company. Especially for cyber security, do not get a Mac. A lot of the tools are just different enough on a Mac that they will make your life much harder.
Oh, you want to study cybersecurity? Yeah forget what I said before, get a Framework, and if you don’t put Linux on it at least put WSL on it. Learn all you can.
cybersecurity really poibts to framework + linux
Get a refurb thinkpad(x1 carbon gen7 ish maybe) and run Linux if your in to cybersecurity.
You're at a time with high risk of laptop tragedies so repairability is an important factor. Framework will be cheaper/easier to repair yourself. However, if you have no interest in DIYing and instead have money to burn to pay for fixes (or a service plan), the mac would be a better option due to the Apple Stores everywhere. A typical repair place won't have familiarity with framework (not that it's particularly exotic) and can be a lot more hit or miss than Apple.
Also make sure you consider a few years down the line when it comes to batteries.
One other thing that you should consider is what kind of software you know you need to run. I did read in the other comments that you mentioned Microsoft Office. If you need a native installed version, that’s where Mac or Windows will be stronger options.
That said, I have both a 2017 MacBook Pro as well as a 1st generation Framework laptop. Between the two of them, I prefer the Framework for a wide variety of reasons. Repairability and upgradability being major factors.
If you opt to use the framework laptop, I know the keyboard can be swapped out for a different language one. After looking at all the different keyboards they have, they don’t have Swedish as an option, but as an alternative, you could always get one of the blank ones and add the lettering down the line. Each operating system can change different keyboard formats on the fly, so even if you used a standard English QWERTY one, it could be switched to DVORAK in the OS and function like it. This should be the same for a Swedish language one if I’m not mistaken.
Finally for operating systems, if you need specific apps, Windows will likely give you the most compatibility with whatever you need to work with. Linux on the other hand is what I personally use and recommend if you’re willing to try something else. If you do, Linux Mint is the easiest one to jump into for a wide variety of reasons. And as a side note, you can also dual boot, using Windows for your studies and Linux for everything else.
I know this was a longer response but I hope that gives you some insight for your situation. Good luck!
Thank you for the response, I appreciate it! I’m not sure I understand the paragraph about the keyboard, however; do you mind explaining how switching the format will affect it?
The letters printed on the keys actually don't matter.
When you install an OS or set up your user, there's always a step asking you your language, right? Part of that is what the OS will interpret the keyboard key codes as.
For example, I pick US English as my language and then also say that I want "Dvorak" as my keyboard layout instead of the normal "Qwerty".
After that, my laptop keyboard (which is the standard Qwerty everyone in the US gets with their Dell laptop) will be interpreted by the OS as actually being Dvorak layout instead, so typing the keys labeled "asdf" makes "aoeu" show up.
Software keyboard layout vs hardware keyboard layout.
Sure. In Windows there’s ways to change the settings for it. I’ll link some steps on that. I’ll also give the direct link if you want to use a blank keyboard:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/learning-center/how-to-remap-your-keyboard
That article above goes very in depth about how to get that done. Depending on what you need to work with; foreign languages, different key formats, etc. it should have the steps to switch them out and give you the best workflow. The short of it though, even if your physical keys show one thing, they will react like you expect with a keyboard you’re familiar with.
As for the physical framework keyboard: https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards
That second link will shows the different keyboard options they have. As a side note, if you choose the DIY edition, you can pick from the different keyboards rather than be stuck with default English. Still doesn’t have Swedish, but may give you a better alternative this way.
Do note, the DIY edition does require some assembly. When I got mine I had to install the wireless card, memory and SSD. Everything else is basically pre-assembled. https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-intel?q=processor
Feel free to ask more questions if you need to. And you’re welcome
Framework
The biggest difference between these two will be the operating system. Although I strongly suspect that the MacBook is a better machine, that won't matter as much as which OS you want to use. Unless the swappable ports are necessary in which case you already know the answer.
According to https://www.notebookcheck.net/ , a framework 13 with a Ryzen 7840U will run out of battery 22% faster than the macbook but will outperform the macbook by 85% on some benchmarks. I wouldn't pick the mac.
Would you recommend the Intel or AMD version? I’m not very updated on what distinguishes the AMD.
AMD is as fast in cpu, faster in GPU, and has(much) better battery life. At least until framework gets meteor lake
I am a bit late but I recommend the framework. Macbooks are just extremely flawed. Disks are soldered to the board alongside the bios chip, so once the disk dies (which will eventually happen) you can throw away the whole laptop.
Then it is commonly known that chip that which "changes" 12 volts to 6 volts randomly dies and it kills your ssd with bios.
Go check some of Louis Rossmann videos...
Apple does flat-rate repairs for Mac laptops that haven't been damaged by impact or liquid damage. If they can perform a repair cheaper in-store, they usually will do so, but I am going on old info from being a repair tech at an Apple Store a decade ago. You could ask an Apple Store employee to get the cost of flat-rate repairs from a technician and then you'd know what you're potentially looking at. I've owned many Mac laptops and only needed a repair on one (and that was still under warranty).
I'm a Mac nerd who's fascinated by Framework laptops. I don't think either decision would be wrong. I haven't got to test drive one, so I can't offer an informed opinion beyond what I've said here.
Framework: Repairable MacBook: Not Repairable
Winner: Framework.
I am not very familiar with framework but I did switch from macbooks to a dell gaming laptop years ago and I am so glad I did.
The macs are ridiculously expensive, and even if you break just the charger it costs a lot to replace. My laptop now I was able to get for nearly half the price and it runs games and programs that I used in college better than the mac ever could.
Every mac I ever owned completely died in 4-6 years of purchase. They're basically guaranteed to not last a long time. My guess is you're better off with getting a framework
There are plenty of reasons not to like apple products, but the 4-6 years for macbooks is unheard of. There's a reason I was able to sell my 2015 macbook for 60% of its purchase price in 2020. They keep chugging along, built physically strong, with great battery management that means it doesn't degrade much over time. And with launch of apple silicon, the performance of them is even better. They won't game, but for a certain type of person they are a good choice. And for other people they're a bad choice, that they'll make just for the sake of social status or whatever.
- Not a apple fanboy, see my other comment.
My experience may be too anecdotal to take into account, so I understand not caring about my specific experience. But I do think it's a good idea to take life span into account, and from a quick google search the average lifespan of a Macbook air is generally 5-7 years (so really not far off).
Just something to consider that since parts aren't replaceable, OP would have to pay the full amount of a new laptop at that time
I wouldn't buy either.
Can you elaborate? What computer would you use?
There are other laptops besides macbooks and framework laptops.
I liked the lenovos in recent years, linux just worked out of the box, swapped the wifi-chip to support 6E last year, and upgraded the memory, super easy to do.
Was surprised how cheap these wifi-chips are, cost like 20$ for the intel ax210.But the current lineup is too expensive for what they offer.. Maybe buy a used one. (in general)
