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Unpopular Opinion @lemmy.world
GhostFence @lemmy.world

You should be able to ask "I want a CIS mate" in a dating app without being shamed.

There's this rising narrative going around that if you ask specifically for a CIS partner, you're a transphobe. That could be true for some people but it's not fundamentally related to bigotry. Moreover, this narrative, the "if you only want a CIS mate then that is prejudice" is trampling on one of the most important rights a person can have: the right to choose who they want to get intimate with.

First of all, transmen are in fact men and transwomen are in fact women. Let's get that out of the way. This isn't a foot in the door for "trans this really isn't that" narratives. What this is about it is the freedom to choose who you want to be intimate with. That right is sancrosanct, it is absolutely inviolable.

And yes, there's plenty of issues that make transgender dating a special issue. If someone reveals their TG status they can be open to hate crimes and even deadly violence. However all marginalized groups are special in their own way. As a black man I don't think it's racist if a woman says she doesn't want to date a black man. I face oppression, too. My class is special in its own way. One group isn't more special than the other. None of us have the right to force ourselves upon those who don't want to be intimate with us, even by omitting who we really are.

Really, if you have to deceive or hide who you are in order to date someone, do you really want to date them? I wouldn't. That's not fair to you and you're denying them their right to choose who they want. What do you think will happen when the person wants a CIS mate and they discover the truth? They're going to get pissed and dump you. Now you have to shame them into staying with you: "If you loved me for real this wouldn't bother you"... that's not going to convince anyone. They're either going to leave, or they'll resent you forever. That's just how it is. You can be mad at that but that's about as effective as protesting the rising of the sun. There's just no way to win once you've gone down that road.

"I want a CIS mate" is not the same as "trans women are not women" - one is a preference, the other is harmful prejudice. On the flip side CIS people who do date trans people shouldn't be shamed for their choices either. A man should be free to date a trans woman and not catch flak about it. Trans people should be able to be openly trans and not face hate speech or threats to their well-being. This, without any exception whatsoever.

The fundamental fact is when you shame or worse abrogate people's right to choose who they want to get intimate with, it's not going to end well for you. All you're going to get is people who resent being coerced or bullied to date people they don't want to. And that's not something the country, or the world, will ever put up with. Except that right now, most people don't imagine they can be labeled a transphobe just for wanting a CIS mate. And unpopular opinion: that should be nipped in the bud.

271 comments

  • I hope this isn't actually an unpopular opinion. People objectively have a type of what they do and don't want. Specification is a good thing and will help people find their match faster. The last thing a person, either trans or not trans would want, is to spend time with someone who will never work for them.

  • The underlying issue is that dating apps just need better filters. An ideal one would be were you could filter out any deal breakers.

  • I'm trans. I think the reason people get upset is because of the reason behind the preference. That reason can be totally valid, to totally shitty, and people assume either the best or the worst depending on their perspective usually. A trans person seeing this might assume "oh boy another transphobe" while a cis person would think "yep and I won't date a person who owns cats because I'm deadly allergic" and carry on.

    On top of that a blanket "I won't date trans people" rule tends to ignore "outliers" like nonbinary, intersex, or gender fluid people, which can feel pretty bad when the underlying reason doesn't fit the actual real life scenario you might be in.

    Here's a few reasons behind the preference that I can think of:

    • I'm straight and want bio kids - Fair enough, either your partner is cis or they aren't compatible for that goal, or you're getting into the nonbinary grey area.
    • I don't want to deal with the extra baggage, potential judgement from peers, or mental/physical health comorbidities that come with transition - kinda bleh but its your choice and only you can really decide what you're willing to invite on yourself, but it feels crappy for trans people who definitely didn't ask to be trans either.
    • I'm attracted to specific genital configurations - that's your preference, but it sort of ignores any post op trans people, which feels really shitty if as a trans person you've done this major surgery to be happier and more yourself, and people just assume you haven't, and won't talk to or engage with you over something you already changed, through a very intensive and difficult process. Overall though genital preferences are perfectly fine, people just don't like saying "I only like penis" because it sounds weird, so they substitute "I only like cis men" thinking that's a less awkward alternative.
    • I don't think trans people are who they identify as - real shit and the kind of people most are actually mad at when people day "I won't date trans people.

    Anyways, I'm sure there are more, but the point I'm trying to make is, saying you won't date trans people is just kinda vague. Many people will assume the worst, which is on them, but it would help to clarify and be clear about what your real preference is, or why you have it. For instance "I want to have bio kids someday, so if we aren't compatible on that level then that is a dealbreaker" or "I'm straight and I'm only interested in Cis or post op trans women" which with a couple extra words clearly portrays that its a genital preference without explicitly saying it.

    TLDR: having preferences is perfectly fine but when people judge you it's because it isn't clear why you have that preference, and usually ignores outliers. Clarification, while maybe a bit longer or more complicated, would eliminate the anger in most cases. The people who still get upset are likely to be angry no matter what.

  • I’d like to congratulate OP for handling a difficult subject in a way that’s both straightforward and thoughtful!

  • I agree, but if this is unpopular it really oughtn't be. I've always advertised up front that I'm a trans woman, because not everyone wants to date that and I wouldn't want to be with anyone who doesn't. I don't think it's at all unreasonable, and you're totally right that people shouldn't be shamed for that.

    That said, there's ways of turning people down that absolutely deserve to be shamed, and not being interested in someone isn't justification for say, telling a trans woman you aren't interested because you like women.

    If you're acting like a reasonable adult and treating people respectfully though, you should be respected in kind. People are entitled to being interested in who they're interested in. If you aren't attracted you aren't attracted.

  • I don't trust the way this question is framed. Yes people have preferences but why do you have to ask other people how to talk to someone like a human being? We are human. You can just have a conversation with us.

    I've had girls attracted to me even when knowing my trans status which other people started screaming about saying I must be a girl (I even have facial hair). So the idea that cis hets can't EVER be attracted to us is a lie.

    Basically I don't trust anyone else's opinion on this. We are people. This is not Build-A-Date. Learn to communicate like an adult. Not every trans person has the same set of equipment.

  • I have never run into this, honestly. I would assume if you are looking for a possible sexual relationship, that a person's sexual preference matters. Not to say gender is not important, but sex also is in this instance. If you expect a dick and get a clit, that's going to be a bit of a let-down, no matter how much you are romantically attracted to the person. I think it's mature to have this conversation early in the relationship. More people need to understand that you can discuss this kind of stuff like adults and well, if you're someone looking for a certain type of partner, there should not be shame attached to it.

  • I am the dad of a transgender person and I agree. Sexual and romantic attraction should never be held to the same standard. The heart (and the genitals) wants what it wants

  • The one thing that kind of disturbs me about trans relationships when I've called it out, is that trans men and trans women don't feel the need to disclose that they're trans to their partner, as if it's not something important that the other person has a right to know.

    Just to be clear, I have nothing against the trans community and I think it's horrible that they're being made into scapegoats and getting attacked by right-wing assholes, but at the same time, people have a right to know some things about their partners. I think trans folks have every right to transition into whatever makes them happy. If people are open for that relationship, more power to them, I am happy for you, BUT that's still a choice that somebody should be allowed to make on their own whether they want to be in that relationship or not with full knowledge of what's going on. To me, it's borderline sexual assault if you've not disclosed that to a partner, since knowing the truth could potentially have changed their actions, though maybe it's more something like "sexual fraud".

    The arguments I've gotten against this from some people just don't hold up, things like, "Well you wouldn't disclose every dental procedure you've had to a partner would you?" No, because nobody gives a shit about how many crowns you have when they're trying to have sex with you, that's irrelevant to the situation. Whereas, "this person biologically started as the opposite sex and they've made a transition", is kind of a big deal for some people and could be a deal breaker. Whether you think that judgement is bigoted doesn't matter, that's a boundary that they've set for themselves and should still be respected. Them declining is probably helping you dodge a bullet, since them finding out after the fact is WAAAY more likely to go south pretty quick.

    • I don't disagree with any of the content of what you said, but I've never met a trans person who defaulted to nondisclosure. And doing that is a very unsafe move for any trans person.

      There is the typical "I'm gonna at least see if there's some genuine interest here before I decide if it's worth it to have this conversation," but I've never met anyone who would forgo that up to and after sex. I don't think this is common at all.

      • What is common is the stupid meme joke of "I went to fuck this chick and when she took off her clothes she had a DICK". It doesn't matter if it actually happens or not, cis people are often obsessed with being scared by the thought and it's just pathetic honestly.

        Nevermind that yes, given how close minded most cis people are, doing this would be as you say a very unsafe thing to do (both physically and emotionally) or that it doesn't really make sense to just hope that a random cis person isn't going to react negatively (especially because cis people just can't stop telling and re-telling this kind of insecurity disguised as a joke). Also if you are having sex with someone you know so little about that this comes as a surprise to you... I kind of feel like maybe you shouldn't be complaining about being surprised by details of a partner when you didn't bother to find out anything important about them at all before you decided to have sex with them?? Sure having a penis or not doesn't really define who you are in any meaningful sense (that isn't imposed by society) but if you get to the point that you are going to be intimate with someone I just really am having a hard time fathoming why this wouldn't have already come up?

        Ok maybe the trans person really has fallen for you and is in denial about how close minded you are... but even in that case (which feels more like a hypothetical than an actual common scenario) acting like this is some nefarious or mean act is ridiculous. The cis person just has to see a dick for a brief second, it is no different than going to the gym locker room for fucks sake, for the trans person now they have to deal with the emotional intensity of being instantaneously and aggressively rejected by a partner they thought was in to them and unfortunately might physically be in danger from violence now. How does this make any sense at all? It is a waste of breathe to talk about this shit all it does is force the spotlight on feeling bad for how fragile cis men's identities are given their insecurities while ignoring the very real physical and emotional violence enacted upon trans and queer people every single moment upon this earth.

        The only other lame insecurity that disguises itself as a joke among cis people that can give this one a run for its money is cis-men's fear of their own butt and what might happen if they realized it felt good to have something up there.

  • While I agree it's certainly fine to have preferences there is also etiquette to consider. Transphobia at it's core is a belief that the very nature of being trans is somehow lesser than or repulsive. Transness is a very wide spectrum that has a bunch of different presentations so simply discarding the entirety of the category is transphobic.

    It's more helpful to think of things more in terms the individual things that you are looking for and your deal breakers. Like if your major beef is about physicality there are trans people who retain their physicality and fertility of their birth sex. The feild of trans presentation is really wide. Trans people also generally understand dating as a series of hurdles in finding someone who will give them a chance. Having people just shut down the entirety of the category regardless of any potential reasons they might actually fit what you are looking for contributes to a pervasive fear a lot of trans people have about never finding romantic acceptance. "No trans people!" stands out of a request like a flat out condemnation of anyone who might so much as request a different pronoun rather than just as a personal preference.

    An example of something inclusive but still firm on preferences would be something like saying - "I have a female genital preference, want to keep the door open to having children of your own one day and prefer people who present in a very feminine way" ... Because you still haven't discluded all trans people. You've just made it clear that you have a genital and presentation preference and you have a life goal that makes perfect sense. She/they AFAB non-binary partners who are generally femme presenting are rare but still exist and you are communicating your needs in a way that doesn't place a value on how someone internally feels about their gender.

    Breaking down the root of transphobia is hard. It demands that we remove a value judgement off of being trans. This at some level means an internal assessment of where you might be open to trans partners and keeping the options open. Like if you are not okay at all with any form of transness because you have a core belief that we are just too much work with our pronouns and our weird way of self conceptualizing ourselves, that's transphobia. ...

    Trans is an umbrella term for a group of people so internally diverse that virtually every combination of sexual physicality, gender presentation and gender identity is somewhere represented. Writing off every potential person in the category basically is saying that there are zero concessions you will personally make because even the smallest most unnoticeable presence of trans identity in a person regardless of their physicality or personality is completely repellant to you... Which while it IS a preference is still fairly hostile to trans acceptance.

  • As someone who doesn't care about race gender or what genitals you have or had if i were dating, I agree.

  • Dude, most dating apps place trans people in a entirely third category. Usually it's a third box after male/female and I promise, nobody cares if you leave it unchecked. You're missing out on wonderful, self-realized, adventurous individuals IMHO but nobody is calling you a transphobe simply because you prefer cis women, calm down. You're exaggerating greatly and absolutely parroting anti-trans hysteria here. Shit like this is exactly why a trans person might not come out on the first date

  • Somehow, nobody here is talking about that "cis mate" is accidentally too restrictive, if it's about genital preference. Saying "I want a cis mate" is going to exclude non-binary people that would actually be perfectly compatible with your genital preference and present close enough to the gender you're attracted to. Let's be appropriately specific when talking about this stuff, people

  • Idk, retusing to date someone based on their race does seem pretty racist to me. I know it's not the point of the post but like... It's murky moral territory.

    You can't help who/what your attracted to, true. Even if it might be defined by subconscious prejudice, that might not necessarily be something you can change, totally. But having that conversation... It's gonna be hurtful, yeah? I think if you have that kinda preference the only easy way to accommodate it is by you advertising it in a general way.

    Which only really works for dating apps, the absolute worst way to meet people.

    Also, not a big deal, but it's best to put a space between 'trans' and 'men/'women'. It's an adjective. They are trans, they are men/women. 'Transmen' and 'transwomen' makes it seem like you're designating them seperately.

271 comments