"Both parties are the same!"

There's nuance. Obviously, vote for the liberal over the fascist, it's not even close. However, the fascists are absolutely represented in government, while there's no leftist candidates to speak of. Leftists have to plug their nose and vote liberal, while fascists gleefully vote republican.
Voting is entirely for loss prevention, because ultimately it absolutely impacts minority groups and people who stand to lose a great deal by a republican victory. However, leftists will not be able to move America to the left by voting.
That's why grassroots movements and building up of parallel structures are so important for leftism, it cannot work within the confines of a 2 party Capitalist state, and must be built from the bottom up.
- You said there’s nuance but then went on to explain that there isn’t nuance and the only reasonable vote is for Biden. And you’re not wrong. There are a lot of folks pretending to be on the left acting like there’s a whole lot of nuance here, and that voting for someone other than Biden, or not voting at all, is an acceptable option.
  None of this precludes advocating for your positions or doing other praxis, but when it comes to voting the answer is clear
  
  There's nuance, because leftists saying voting isn't going to change anything meaningfully as far as moving towards the left is still true.
  
  I just don't know why the Onus is never on Joe Biden himself. Why is it that we feel like he doesn't have to earn any votes at all?
  "Am I so out of touch? No, it's the voters who are wrong."
  
  Voting for someone other than Biden or not voting is an absolutely acceptable option, and I’m not pretending to be a leftist when I do so. I have Ranked Choice Voting in my state, but even if I didn’t, I would vote for who I most want in office because I have no faith in either democrats or republicans to fix the most important issues currently plaguing 99% of the people. Vilifying people for voting third party — when third parties are currently the only viable presidential and congressional solution apart from a violent revolution — is misguided.
  Democrats are not your friends; you deserve better.
- This is very well written and well said. If we want change that doesn't come from working within the Democrats, we have to build our own robust party across all 50 states, drawing on strong local support. No one outside of the two parties is currently trying to do this, which speaks volumes about the Green and Libertarian Parties.
  Leftists really have no choice other than to vote Democrat. We have to protect people who would be targeted by Republicans. We fundamentally go against left wing values if we don't. I cannot call myself liberal or leftist or wherever in-between if I sit out an election where innocent people will suffer if one of the candidates wins.
  I like how you've phrased this -- voting for Biden isn't because you necessarily like his policies or viewpoints, but because you want to protect people from Trump and the Republicans. I'd love if we didn't have to worry about fascists, but we don't have that luxury. As long as they're a hair's breadth away from power, we pick the option that opposes them.
  
  Exactly. There's one terminally online radlib here that I blocked because they were just shit-slinging for daring to suggest both voting Biden and unionizing, organizing, protesting, etc. As a leftist, we must work from without the Democratic party.
  Speaking purely from a leftist perspective, I'm actually of the opinion that Anarchist principles of building up parallel structures actually may be more applicable to the American political climate, even if you're more of a Council Communist, Libertarian Socialist, Marxist-Leninist, etc. The US is seeing rising Unionization, and dramatic impacts from it, so I think Syndicalism actually has some revolutionary potential, unlike waiting for a Vanguard Party a la MLism.
  Just my 2 cents.
  
  We have to protect people who would be targeted by Republicans.
  How's that going? Republicans are enacting all manner of bigoted policy. What are the Democrats doing to reverse their hateful shit at the federal level?
  I’d love if we didn’t have to worry about fascists, but we don’t have that luxury. As long as they’re a hair’s breadth away from power, we pick the option that opposes them.
  We don't have that option. We have Democrats, who will always care more about decorum and procedural bullshit than they ever will about protecting anyone.
- We're not going to get rid of the two party system without switching to a proportional representation system. I have my preference for America (5 seat districts with proportional approval voting) but any reasonable proportional system will do.
- Great comment. 100%
- Be the millionaire Democrat socialist/ liberal representative you want to be!
  
  There's no chance they'd ever let an actual Socialist into office within the 2 party Capitalist system.
- while fascists gleefully vote republican.
  If I was a fascist, I'd vote Dem - fascism just gets more traction with liberals in the Waffle House, and Dems are utterly ineffective at actually doing anything to stop fascism anyway. It was Trump whipping the fascists into a froth while a lib was in the Waffle House that brought antifa into the streets - not Trump actually humiliating himself on a daily basis in the Offal Office.
  Fascists just gets more from a Dem regime - the Dems are doing a fine job strengthening fascist institutions. If Pig City was being constructed under Trump, the resistance to it would be ten times stronger.
  None of this means you are wrong, of course (you're not) - but if voting can stop fascists it simply means the political institutions aren't ready to hand power over to them just yet. They are working on it, though.
  
  Accelerationism works both ways, I suppose, but there legitimately are fascists in the republican party.
  
  If Pig City was being constructed under Trump, the resistance to it would be ten times stronger.
  I think I once would have believed this but I do not anymore, and I wouldn't be willing to bet the lives of all people who aren't white, heterosexual cis-men on a resistance suddenly appearing. If anything, it seems like people are more willing to normalize, or at least look away from, atrocities than I would have ever imagined in the past.

I am not saying I am not voting for Biden, but running on the platform of "vote for us or bad things will happen" is a shitty platform.
- Look I get it, I also wanted someone different than Biden in 2020. But I truly don't think it's sane political strategy to run a different democratic candidate when you already have a sitting democratic president who's able to run for another term. The loss of the incumbent advantage is way higher than any benefit a new candidate would bring (from a voter turnout perspective, not a policy one). People would be rightly furious if the Democrats ran a new guy only to lose to trump based on name recognition alone.
  
  I think it's the sane option when said candidate is 80 years old.
  Most people are in a care home or dead at that age.
  
  Look I get it, I also wanted someone different than Biden in 2020.
  Bloomberg or Delaney?
- Of the two major parties, the GOP is far closer to what you’re describing. If it wasn’t for fear mongering, the GOP wouldn’t have anything at all to go off of. Bad things will happen like, immigrants flooding the borders, socialism raising your taxes, your kids being taught to be gay, etc. “Vote for us or bad things will happen” might as well be the official slogan of the GOP. Either that or “White Christians good, everyone else, bad”. Take your pick.
  
  "Democrats are running on a disgusting fear-mongering campaign! I know so because somebody sometime said something on twitter! ...although I wasn't paying that much attention, too distracted doomscrolling while fondling my confirmation purity bias."
- Bruv, we get it, but it is literally a binary choice. Can’t fix shit if there’s nothing left to fix, nahmean?
- No, everyone loves being scared and shamed into voting for a candidate that supports a genocide.
  
  The longer that centrists scream that anyone who doesn't like Biden's support for genocide must be a Trumpist/Russian/bot/child/etc, the more I think that they looked at the genocide and were like "fucking finally!"
- That's not the platform they are running on at all though. That's something I only hear progressives online say as they attack centrists to the delight of right wingers.
  
  You never heard "we need to stop trump" or "help us stop trump" from democrats? Being not-trump has been the party platform ever since he got elected, to the point where they adoringly talk about any republican that has argued against him, even scumbags like john bolton.
  
  Don't tell that to all those weekend armchair political quarterbacks, though, you'll be bombarded by a barrage of "mUh PuRiTy! bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe LoL aMiRiTe!" confirmation-biased autistic screeching.
- Yeah exactly. It's so shitty we will most likely have 2 terrible terrible choices.
  
  And that this will keep being the case until Democrats move so far to the right that we have two functionally identical parties or the lesser evil finally loses and we have only one.
- Ok, great, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Unfortunately, complaining about it doesn't make it any less true. This is a triage situation; we have to save our democracy first, and only then can we worry about fixing it.
- A shitty platform is born out of a shitty system rotten to the core.
- If you think that's the platform their running on you haven't been paying attention.
- If there was a worse Hitler, Tiedrich would argue we need to vote for Hitler and convince you there's no other option.
- It's simple, vote 3rd party
  
  Not without ranked choice voting in place first.
  
  In primaries, yes. In the presidential election, no. That's how we get DeSantis.
  
  lol okay bruh. Go ahead and shoot yourself in the dick.
  
  Found the GOP shill

Fucking thank you! I read so much bullshit about this group or that one saying they're not gonna support Biden because of whatever, it makes me want to scream
- A lot of those people and the enlightened centrists who say "both parties are the same" are disinformation warriors and Russian bots designed to erode support for Biden. Even just 1% or 2% can make a difference in some battleground states.
  
  5 day account calling people bots. Sus.
  
  It really depends on what fields you're comparing. For example, in terms of climate change, both parties, policies will result in the destruction of the planet. Period.
  When people say that, they're saying we need radical change to stop the problems right in front of us, and neither party is doing that.
  
  Or maybe people plugging their ears and pretending everything is some giant misinformation campaign against their home team because they think they deserve the win without trying are being shocked to find they don't have the support they think is owed to them for simply not being fascists.
  If everything you hear is just some fake person with no real problems you miss the people actually complaining about their legitimate ones and feel forgotten about and at best don't vote and at worst vote for the side that agrees that it would be fun to pick on the people perceived as above them.
  Biden should at least run debates or else people are just going to be in exactly their own bubble of awareness and have his results of his presidency to work with and hopes and dreams of the other and people suck at objective looks at reality and are much more willing to believe in fairy tales than you think.
  And I know my statement makes everyone foam at theouth cause "How dare I say this!" But it is what it is. You must look reality in the face of you want to have any hope controlling it.
- Right, people who are “Biden is genocide!!” while republicans would be worse about Palestine and trump is calling for genocide against Central Americans.
- If Biden wants those groups to stop being detractors, there is a very easy solution - simply hold a primary for DNC president, and let them cast their “other” vote there. Then Dems can galvanize support for the winning candidate in ‘24.
  Unfortunately they know this won’t work due to how massively unpopular Biden is, and so they refuse. So, the problem is that DNC doesn’t want a democratically elected president, they want to try to force a genocidal dinosaur down our throats and somehow at the same time claim that the end of democracy is voting for the other guy. It’s a lose-lose for America - thanks, Biden.
  
  Yeah, Biden doesn't have to support genocide. He can do the right thing. He just chooses not to.
- Biden has to earn my vote, just like every other candidate. If you want me to vote for Biden, convince me. What do you like about his platform? Can you convince me to vote for Biden without bringing up Trump?
  
  Can you convince me to vote for Biden without bringing up Trump?
  What would be the point in that when Trump is the only other candidate who has a chance of winning? The rational thing to do is to compare and contrast them.
  If you're not going to vote for either of them, you might as well not vote at all. You're not going to have an effect. Decades of people voting third party have not gotten any third party anywhere. Not even when Ross Perot tried it and he actually had a decent chance.
  
  That doesn't make any sense. You're basically saying that you refuse to look at a suite of potential consequences of your vote. That's not responsible at all.

I think there's something wrong with a system that every 4 years have you pick wether you'd rather get repeatedly punched in the face or shot
- Where am I being shot? Maybe it's someplace kinda safe like the ass. I would take a bullet to the ass over being punched in the face.
  This is not trump support, was a joke about how neither is a good experience. But whatever y'all
  
  Just to name a few:
  Continued support and funding to Israel with only the most tepid condemnation as people became more aware of their genocide against Palestinians.
  busting the railway union which arguably, if their demand had been met, may not have had the disaster in Ohio. A move rivaled only by Regan
  Despite being told that we had to fight for “kids in cages” nothing has actually come to fruition on that front
  
  I’m here for the dark humor. We fucked.

America got 300mil people and the best 2 candidates to lead the country is Trump and Biden??
- It's never been about the best candidates. That's a story for school children. In reality it's all about who is connected to who, who makes favors for who etc.
  And naturally you need to be rich, which means you are already connected to a web of individuals who you owe favors, or are expected to satisfy in different ways.
  
  In Biden's case a major factor is his catering to the Israel lobby his whole career. They really disliked Obama since he was known to attend pro Palestine events and apparently knew what the deal was. Biden as his VP pick was basically his signal to donors that he would govern like an establishment Democrat, and that he did.
- "Best?" Of course not, that's not how the 2 party system works. We don't live in some meritocracy, Capital is what makes the gears turn. The system is designed to change as little as possible.
  That's why Unionization and organization at a grassroots level is the only way to move America meaningfully to the left, vote Dem to keep fascists out of office while actually doing the hard work yourself on the ground.
- What else do you expect from a colonial imperialist state?
  It's surprising rather that Hitler didn't resurrect to run for president. I imagine he'd get a good chunk of votes.
  
  What else do you expect from a colonial imperialist state?
  New colonies at the very least. Haven't seen any new colonies created imperially in a couple hundred years at least.
- The best from the current establishment…

I don't want Trump to get another term. And Biden putting on his big boy pants and doing popular things is our best chance to preventing a second Trump term. It's retail politics, not rocket science.
- There are tons of popular things he's not doing. For one, he could just straight up order the decriminalization of marijuana at the federal level. And by that, I mean, banning enforcement of the law.
  
  Biden literally instructed the DEA to reschedule cannabis already. This kind of rulemaking requires actual policy studies, as the courts have repeatedly stated that it can't be done capriciously.
  It's crazy how people know every fucking awful thing the government does but never the stuff they ostensibly support. I'll say it again - the biggest problem with progressive US politics is the cynicism and engagement gap
  
  I'm pretty sure the executive branch can't unilaterally decriminalize marijuana. And especially not force states to decriminalize it.
  
  I get that the FDA could reclassify marijuana, but the real issue i think is that Congress needs to get on the ball and deal with legalizing it . There are laws on the books that have to be dealt with regarding sale and distribution and banking issues.
  
  The marijuana thing is a no brainer. It's political malpractice they haven't done anything on that front.
  
  Agencies within the executive branch have quite a bit of independence, which is a very good thing, because if they didn't, Trump would have done vastly more damage than he did.
- Everyone just needs to do the right thing and vote 3rd Party.
  
  My brother in Christ, that is not the right thing.
  
  A second Trump term is everything you hate about Biden plus more shit. Biden still the lesser of two evils, you should vote for him.
  But I will say Biden is a fucking moron for doing so many unpopular things late in his term. I guess some of these geriatric Dems would rather punch down on the left than secure democracy against it's biggest threat in decades. I get the frustration.
  
  Who is running third party for folks to rally behind? Moreover, who is running that would somehow overcome both major parties' candidates by drawing enough away from them to win or in some way effect a change in process?
  
  Let me know when there's a third party candidate worth my time. Jill Stein has done nothing to earn my vote, and unless she addresses her anti science remarks, she'll never get it.
  
  Great plan. Everyone just needs to listen to you, and all our problems will go away!
  
  Everybody needs to vote for who they honestly think the best candidate is. If that's Biden, vote Biden. If that's Jill Stein or Cornel West or whoever the Libertarians are running, then vote for them.
  Vote your hopes, not your fears. Or, as Jill Stein said, "Don't vote for the lesser evil. Vote for the greater good."

Vote Democrat, but remember they are chosen because they are marginally better, not because they are great.
Do everything in your power to end the rule of a stupid two-party system, for one party going full fascist allows the other to stop fighting for your rights the way it should.
- Vote Democrat
  Do everything in your power to end the rule of a stupid two-party system
  These things contradict each other
  
  How you vote isn't going to impact the two party system, because there's still only two realistic outcomes. Democrats win or Republicans win. Withhold a vote from one party and you empower the other party.
  Not to mention, our third parties actually maintain the two party system. They don't oppose it. They criticize mainstream politicians for corruptions and then go rub shoulders with Russian oligarchs. They have no intent to actually win, it's just a grift. If they were serious about becoming a player, they would have invested in a 50 state strategy to build up a local presence everywhere. And then from a solid base, gradually win elections and climb up the ladder. Instead, they waste all their money on the presidential election and hope you don't realize that if they do win, they have no representatives in Congress.
  Realistically, ending the two party system as a new party within that system is unlikely. You'd need to massively build up local. Instead, we're better off co-opting the parties. Do what the Tea Party did and hijack the party to go where you want.
  
  Change comes from within

If the DNC wanted to, it could pass ballot & electoral reform. It doesn’t, because FPTP/winner takes all benefits them doubly - either they lose and can fundraise off “red team bad” messaging, or they win power and get their turn at the levers of power.
If you’re politically homeless on the right, anything even slightly to the right of median is preferential to ‘conserve’ the world you’re clutching to. Slowing or preventing change is your mantra politically, because you like the status quo today/previously
If you’re politically homeless on the left, you’re bullied in liberal unity under big-tent centrism, even though it’ll never effectively serve your core interests like right wing unity would. There may be some overlap, but good luck with actual legislative movement on LGBTQ+, unionization, campaign finance reform, alternative policing, etc
Under a different system we’d actually have coalitions and better representation on issues- especially topics with entrenched left-right collusion like foreign policy.
- The DNC could have passed ballot and electoral reform under Obama when they had good majorities in both the house an senate, but they will not be able to in the foreseeable future (because they likely will not have strong majorities in both chambers for a very long time). I do agree that they probably wouldn't, even if they could, unless the party changes drastically.
  I do have (a tiny amount of) hope that "progressives" can gradually change the party. The Republican party has changed quite a bit over the last few decades; neocon under Bush, Tea Party under Obama, and now MAGA. So, it's definitely possible to change a party.
  
  They didn't have those majorities for a long time. Runoff elections and deaths gave them a two month window or so. They passed Obamacare with that, and had to remove a single payer option to get the last necessary votes.
  But also, the Democrat party was a lot less left in those days. There were a lot of Manchin types of conservative Democrats. We've never had the votes for electoral and ballot reform. We needed to build on our majority in 2010 to do it, and we instead we lost the majority entirely.
  
  I’d say the RNC has had a hostile takeover that’s going to lead to a schism, versus an evolution. Post/Reaganism was an evolution that the RNC did very successfully co-opt. Trump’s populist rhetoric has been damaging to the status quo for vested interest, both political and corporate. The tea party movement fizzled out because Obama was popular and had majorities, so their impotent rage didn’t have a strong figurehead until Donnie in 2016.
  I don’t see the progressives changing the party - see: Talib’s censure, Bernie being sidelined until late, or how intra-party caucuses like the squad or the black caucus falls in line. On the right where gridlock is a feature, the house freedom caucus can force an embarrassing number of speakership votes until their ultimatums are met, and be lauded as heroes. Progressives and their voter bloc want a progress, and so have to play ball with the DNC.
  Remember that DoMA went away from a court case, not primary legislation. The ‘gay vote’ was seen as reliable by the DNC, because it’s not like the right is opening its arms to those voters, so there wasn’t any political capital spent on that issue. Just lip service all through the Obama majority years
  
  DNC was sued over the Bernie Sanders 2016 politicial era. DNC is considered a corporation.
  Justice Democrats were the "progressives" elected to change the Democrates, if you follow how they vote and talking points changed over the years, the party changed them not the other way around.
  Sabby Sabs had the lawyers of the DNC Fraud Lawsuit.
  DNC Fraud Lawsuit Lawyers Speak Out! Why Marianne & RFK Jr. Can't Win (Interview Clip) [55:31 | May 15 2023 | Sabby Sabs]
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi4XKwdVSNo
- Could they?
  AFAIK, most details of elections are set by the states, right? I think at the federal level, it might require an amendment to require that states use ranked choice, STAR. 3-2-1 or whatever.
  
  They’re one of the two 800lb gorillas in the room, you think they can’t move public opinion or make policy? Yes the states run their own elections parallel to the feds, but that just means they pass 51ish laws instead of 1.
  If you told the American electorate, who is chronically pissed off with the Congress and vacillating on the President, that under STV they could pick their actual favorite AND a safe/tactical vote? I think even Republicans would take that with both hands.
  A perennial gripe of rural America is that state and/or federal government don’t prioritize them, the urban vote gets preference. Minorities, gun owners, migrants, small business, etc all can spin the same story with different players. Why wouldn’t they want to pick someone closer to their values or needs than a candidate who appeals to a different voter bloc instead?

Here's what I don't get about this. If you vote for Trump this time, you know what you're getting. He was already president, so you know what you're in for. Is there really anybody on the fence here? I mean, I understand hating both candidates and declining to vote for either one, but if you vote for Trump, then you agree with Trump.
- There are an alarming number of people who got a good look at the raging dumpster fire and decided that they needed some more of that.
- Unfortunately, it sounds like the second round would be much worse. They already had a trial run. Now they know how to actually accomplish a lot of the awful things he wanted to do.

- But who operates the machine :O :O :O
  
  The machine is set up in such a way that this does not matter. It only turns to the right.
- Alternatively, when Democrats (rarely) control Congress, it's by a hair, nearly 50/50. When Republicans control Congress it's much closer to 55/45.
  This is largely what leads to the rachet effect.

It does. Biden is able to get away with being toothless and doing things like continuing to build the border wall. It feels like his only redemption is he's not Trump. I will vote my mind during the primaries but if it's Biden, I'm gonna hate that I have to vote for him simply because the alternative is worse.
- Primary his Zionist ass, I want to send a clear and loud message to AIPAC and Israel - you don't own us or run our nation!
- By design
- Biden is blue flavored Trump for when you don't want red koolaid

Really good npr podcast on the medias failing by trying to stay nonpartisan and treat both candidates like they are equal.
Made a point to say there were more articles about bidens dog biting someone than trump saying he wants to execute a general.
Bonkers
- Really good npr podcast on the medias failing by trying to stay nonpartisan and treat both candidates like they are equal.
  I heard that. They were acting like it was this massive fucking revelation that the press shouldn't have been giving equal time to fucking nutjobs just because they were "the other side".
  Congratulations on attaining satori about four decades too goddamned late. Pat yourself on the back harder.
  Of course, they didn't once notice that the press had been giving equal time to the center and the batshit fascist right, but completely ignoring the left.
- Do you have a link to that? I'd love to listen to it.

The lesser of two evils is still evil. We need a 3rd party.
- End FPTP and electoral college. They were racist victorian policies anyway
  
  How do we do that without voting?
  
  Victorian? Sorry, no. Late Enlightenment, Georgian, or US Colonial periods are more appropriate terms.
  
  I'm all for ranked choice voting, but eliminating FPTP and a two party system doesn't fix as much as people pretend it does. Using Bernie Sanders as an example, if Sanders found a way through the primaries he would have stood a good chance in FPTP. But he would have stood no chance whatsoever with ranked choice voting, because he would have been overshadowed by objectively more popular candidates. The truth is Biden got into office because he was popular. He wasn't my choice and he wasn't many of your choices. But all over the country there were aging Biden supporters that looked at him like he was the only option. Ranked choice voting doesn't really change that. A great many Biden supporters hated Bernie. Bernie Sanders wouldn't have won a general election in ranked choice, because he wasn't popular enough and had no moneyed interests behind him. If anything FPTP presented the best option for Sanders to get past the post exactly because overall popularity doesn't matter as much as just being slightly better than the other guy in a general election and voter apathy in the primary.
  Additionally, having lived through several ranked choice votes in local elections I haven't seen even a slight improvement in outcomes. The same moderate milquetoast candidates win time and again with messages that exploit fear of change more than hopeful messages of the future.
  We would have to get money both out of politics and out of journalism before someone further left has any chance of winning nationally. We also need to do the grassroots work to change peoples minds on policy in general, and put good politicians up and down the ticket. All the paid fearmongering around left wing policy does more damage than FPTP ever could, imo. Changing voting structures doesn't change voters policy views.
- This will never work until you can vote for as many party as you like instead of just one. They will never allow that, to keep control with this forced 2 party system
- People are so busy worrying about getting people to vote for the lesser evil that they're not stopping to ask why we're voting for evil in the first place. The American political landscape has been this way for decades, if not longer, and every generation has been putting that discussion off for the next.
  
  because the alternative to voting for lesser evil is having the guy that thinks the Holocaust wasn't a bad thing run things, you may want to change the voting system, but you ain't doing it when you're dead
- Unfortunately so long as 30-40% of your country seems to actively want either the collapse of the government or a religious theocracy, you gotta vote for the lesser evil. Once fascism is no longer a threat then you guys can worry about spinning up new parties.
  
  Once fascism is no longer a threat then you guys can worry about spinning up new parties.
  And fascism will never be less of a threat, because the Democrats we're stuck with keep trying to appease fascists instead of treating them like the threat they are.
  
  Seriously we need ranked choice voting not just people voting for third parties. Third parties lead to Orange Hitler when first-past-the-post voting system makes 3d parties into non-viable election spoilers.
- This. Where you see a election between A and B, they want you to choose between this too because A is propellant and B is tow for same direction; they are not giving you freedom of choosing your direction.
- Yeah, I want to vote for the lesser of three evils.
  
  If we can get to 5 and make the evil pentagram of US politics...
- Meh. Everyone is evil. Evil is a misleading, arbitrary, nebulous term that is really unhelpful in reality.
  
  Did you mean for this to be read in Sideshow Bob's voice?

It's the same thing I was saying in 2020. I'm not voting Biden, I'm voting bye don.

Jeff needs to leave Xitter already
- Does everyone else pronounce that as shitter?
  
  100% how I saw it day 1 and very fitting
  
  I feel like that's the intent, so yes.
- You say he needs to leave Twitter because you don’t want to see his comments there.
  I say he needs to leave Twitter because I don’t want to see his comments at all.
  We are not the same.
- Is it all he has? Salty liberal poster is basically his entire identity.
- that's easy to say. but finding an alternative is pretty difficult. mastodon is an option, but it's to twitter what lemmy is to reddit. tiny userbase, and no discovery algorithm to push his opinions.
  
  Mastodon is on a much, much larger scale and userbase than lemmy. I think its ready for primetime. Im just mad it federated with Threads
  
  Have you ever tried just not going on the internet?
  
  Profiles like Tiedrich need that huge user base, they basically just post inane lowest common denominator diarrhea for people to say "this" to.
  
  Has anyone attempted to add a discovery algorithm in a fork of Mastodon or one of the mastodon alternatives? I keep seeing that listed as a downside but I wonder if there's any work that has gone into giving people that option. Haven't really thought it through, tbh.
  
  There are good videos explaining this point, Adam did a good one, valid point but as long as people cling to that site there will never be an alternative.

Least deranged "centrist"
- Seriously, "vote for 90% Hitler or 'only' 60% Hitler"
  
  I don't even think Bush reached 60% Hitler if Trump is only 90%. Being a fool must be easier when you construct your own reality. 🤷‍♀️
  
  If people keep on rejecting the > 60% Hitler party, then the only possible attack from < 60% which will arise.
  If people keep oscillating between the two then nothing will ever change because that's what people actually want (or are convinced they want, which is the same).
- I feel like the word "deranged" has become the new accelerationist buzzword for when people accurately describe the stakes of a Trump presidency. You're apparently "deranged" and "psychotic" for repeating Trump's literal plan verbatim. "Heaven forbid you see reality" according to your silly ass.
  
  What are you even crying about? I'm not saying the person twitting is the deranged one, I'm referring to those "centrist" who unironically spout the "both sides" narrative

"Both parties are the same" is an obviously silly statement.
At the same time, "Vote for the man who says he can't avoid building Trump's wall, but can use executive power to sell weapons specifically to be used for genocide... Because the other guy is worse." is not a great way to raise voter turnout.
Some of the people criticizing others in this thread have been organizing against genocide. Have been calling their representatives, protesting in the street, etc.
If that's you; Great! My beef is not with you.
If not, and especially if you were telling people to vote for Biden in 2020 because we could "push him to the left"; Maybe work on getting Biden to stop funding genocide and generally push an agenda that will make people want to vote for him.
With current levels of partisanship, turnout is what makes the difference in elections.
Criticizing the very people you're trying to get to vote is at best counter-productive.
Like it or not, if you're campaigning for Biden then you're an embassador for the Democratic party. People notice what you spend your energy on, and what you don't. If you spend more time calling people on the left "stupid" than you do campaigning to end genocide? People will notice, and they will associate Biden supporters with hypocrites that don't actually care about them or people like them.
Being a dick is easier than actually organizing; But it won't achieve your stated goals.
- It's a horrible callus thing I'm fully aware, but I truly don't currently give a fuck about the ongoing messed up aspects of US foreign policy and really only care about desperately trying to get our own country in order. I'm looking for the only realistically electable candidate that's attempting to stop or at least slow the fascist takeover of our country. We aren't in a good enough place right now to worry about anyone else.
  
  It's absolutely a horrible thing to say. And I'm right there with you. It's a core belief of mine that everyone should have equitable opportunity and experiences no matter where they're born in the world and with whatever characteristics. So I don't say it lightly when I say I have to ignore foreign policy. Trump must lose at all costs.
  It's important though I think that we keep this in mind, how horrible the choice is. That's what keeps us from losing our humanity when faced with binary inhumane decisions. I can only hope the blood on my hands will prevent kids today from having to do the same.
- couldn't have said it better
  what does it say about our political system that our choices are "bigot funding genocides abroad and is for racism and systemic injustice at home" and "guy who does the same thing but isn't as outwardly rude about it"

I hate that I agree with someone as obnoxious as Jeff "swear words are hilarious" Tiedrich
- Jeff may be an edge lord, but he's on point most of the time.
  
  Yeah I tend to agree with what he says but the way he says it is so annoying. I'm surprised that post didn't start with "holy fucking shit!"
  
  I feel like his posts are usually just lukewarm takes on topics that many other people have already articulated (obviously with fewer f bombs). I rarely see him post anything that actually adds anything to the discourse. People have pointed out the ridiculousness of the "bOtH sIdEs" mindset plenty of times for a long time.
  If this tweet had been in response to something specific it would be fine, but with no meaningful context it's just Jeff Tiedrich once again shouting "holy fucking shit [insert extremely common left wing opinion here] fuckity fuck" to his echo chamber of a follower list.
- This guy and their aversion to swear words. Fucking lame.

Don't forget, with all the bad talk about immigrants, his wife, late mother, and late ex-wife are/were all immigrants.

Ideally, Biden steps aside for a better Democrat. That would make me happy.
- That is never the way the game has been played. Ideally we have more that two or three candidates and they start ACTUALLY helping the people. But good luck with that pipe dream.
  
  So what we should be worried about is who they choose as VP given that neither candidate will live past another term in office.
- Who should run instead? Who is popular enough now to have any chance?
  
  Usually, thats the point if a primary. Nobody knew who Obama was in 2006

It's just sad that you can't vote for the party you agree with because then your vote loses any value. Americans probably can't imagine the amount of parties in other countries,
- How is a coalition government fundamentally different than what America has?
  
  The fact that you have to ask ...

How come this genius is still in twitter?
- Inertia is a bitch sometimes.
  When you use a service for years, multiple times per day, and all your contacts also use it, it's hard to switch even if you hate what the service has become.

Image Transcription: Twitter Post
Jeff Tiedrich, @itsJeffTiedrich
gee, who do I vote for, the guy who I sometimes don't agree with, or the fascist dictator-wannabe who warns about immigrants "poisioning the blood" of white people. what a fucking conundrum

Obama-Trump voters break Tiedrich's brain.
- I get it though...not that Obama was super progressive, but he's a far cry from trump.
  
  Trump is basically the GOP's Obama because he has this amped up brand abstracted from the party establishment.

What is the definition of insanity, again? But, please, go on and vote for the lesser of the two shits, and be surprised that you get... shit
- I don't understand why people are saying this right now. The primary season's not even over, literally anyone could run against Joe Biden.
  Its simply not binary yet.
  
  Uhhhh, because that's litterally the point of this post..? What do you mean? The Jeff Tiedrich, post...

With this behaviour and this thinking you'll be voting against "The Bigger Evil" for the rest of your life. Your kids will be bullied into voting for "The Lesser Evil" their whole life, your grandchildren will be reminded by their friendly AI legal expert to vote for anyone just not for "Evil Jeff".
Your whole political conscience revolves around a struggle that doesn't exist. You do no good voting for any of these manipulative racists, liars and/or genocidal clowns by listening to paid twitter jesters or hollywood stars. The eChoEs of these shouting matches are so loud now, normal spoken words don't have any weight.
If you put just a fraction of the energy, money or your thoughts into changing your fascist system instead of this useless reality show you call politics every four years (and the years in between), you might be able to die with a knowledge that your children and grandchildren could live in a (more) normal world.
But where's the fun in normality? right?
- you make the fundamental mistake of thinking that you are enacting change via the electoral process, you just keep the guy most likely to respond to other actions in power, and not the fascist, it was the unions that brought us the vote (yes literally) not the vote that brought us unions

Most fucked up part is that that Turd is the reflection of republicans. ;/ Which means that half of the USA went crazy, not just one politician ;/ If electorates were decent human beings, republican party would be forced to offer a decent human being for presidency ;/ and not this anti-science Turd..

Ah yes, genocide is something I "sometimes don't agree with"
Disgusting.

If it's a constant race to the bottom... who cares. I would rather see us bottom out so that there is a chance that I could see real change in my lifetime.

Just don't vote for the one currently supporting a genocide.
- They both support genocide.
  
  Exactly
- I don't know if I can in good conscience support anyone who considers themselves a "Zionist" and supports war criminals in their terrible slaughter of civilians.

That dictator guy sounds like a doctor, doctors can't do harm, thus vote for him!

Both men enable genocide. Trump is just worst. There is no winner here plus Dems constantly let themselves get punked out by GOP cultists. We have reached the end result of vote blue no matter who.
- ? explain. One literally is, and the other didn't
- There is no winner here
  Netanyahu.

Just vote 3rd party. It takes enough people throwing their votes away to break this duopoly. Build new political parties and stop giving money to either republicans or dems. These people are only as powerful as we make them with our money.
- Nah. Vote Democrat to keep fascism away, while unionizing and organizing on the ground. The two party system will only maintain itself if you vote third party, it must be replaced from the bottom up.
  
  Bottom up doesn't seem to be doing anything either though.

Who the fuck is Jeff Tietrich? And why does he think he's smarter than Princeton?
- The DNC's strongest warrior. Rails against Republicans for being the fascists they clearly are, but will absolutely cut you if you dare suggest moving to the left.

The revolution won't happen if Biden wins 🤔
- Noooo we don't actually want reform

If you tally the effects of lifetime policies enacted by Trump vs Biden...

"Don't compare me to the Almighty; compare me to the alternative."
Biden is practically saying, "What are you going to do? Vote for the other guy?"
For fuck's sake, this is how you lose. Time's tickin', people.
Edit: Biden will not lose the popular vote, but he can easily lose the Electoral College. Demand more of him while there is still time.
- I really think they need to run a primary against him just so that people can feel like he is at least the right decision to make even if it feels weak cause this aggressive "It's someone else's fault and I won't do anything about it unless I get exactly what I want!" Attitude is absolutely gonna make him lose the vote even if it pisses everyone off to hear.

Fascist dictator? where do I sign up?

The guy bombing Palesinian babies and being a Zionazi is not a fascist btw .
Democrat mental gymnastics wow.
- So you think Trump's a better option for Palestinians and Muslims in general?
  Cuz that's your options. If you actually care about the babies you posts about, there's no question which is the better option.
  
  He would be exactly the same as Biden. They are both Muslim hating racists.
  If you think Trump would support israel more you're dreaming cause that's basically impossible. Biden is an full on ZioNazi he said so himself a few days ago. He is mowing down Palestinian kids as we speak.
  Also news is that Trump is starting to get banned the elections.
  Third party or you support genocide.

Jeff Tiedrich is so fucking annoying. I thought I got away from seeing screenshots of his dumbass Twitter posts when I left reddit.
- Tiedrich's useless perpetual crying on xitter is iconic of this political era. What he can't see is that he does the Democrats damage.

Wow Democrats are eating each other alive at the realization that they may not win. I'm a bleeding heart leftist that would really love if we don't backslide into a fascist Cristo nationalist state but seriously this screaming anger that people aren't agreeing with the milquetoast forced pick is definitely not gonna help.
Everyone said that the Republican party would split but no. Democrats will lose again by being angry and not supporting people once again.
A party that looks willing to change to better support the requests of their people is a lot more attractive than one that just wants to push the tower back together and keep playing the same games. And when competing against someone who is able to pretend the rubble is is a castle if you just whip hard enough then you are gonna be against a wall that doesn't budge.
This look of spiteful anger isn't going to get people to back the old man and that's the hard truth that needs to be accepted.
- Nobody will ever make me feel bad that Trump is going to win because I'm not going to vote for Biden. Just more blaming everyone but themselves.
  One I saw how willing democrats are to sabotage candidates to push ahead "the safe pick" I just gave up. The Republicans went full steam behind their radical, won, committed hundreds of crimes, and are going to win again.
  But Bernie sanders and Universal Healthcare? No fucking chance. We can deal with a little insurrection, just throw em in jail. But if everybody got Healthcare, stopped fighting each other, and were healthy enough to fight against the rich people? Can't stop that.
  
  Fucking moron, hope you don't have to explain your dumbass takes to a mother/sister/SO
  Real activism is enabling fascists, apparently lol
- I heard that a million times in 2020. Mostly on Twitter.
  They won.
  
  In fairness, Joe Biden barely scraped through electorally. We're talking a handful of thousands of votes in key states.
  He destroyed on the popular vote, but sadly that's not how our system works.
  
  Well it's a year out and we are all just being reactionary to polling numbers but the more the sentiment sticks the more we shape the future. So I guess we just have to see when an election year actually starts instead of doing nothing and fighting about it.
  Also can I just add: doing nothing and expecting the same outcome is insanity

- Ah yes, the spoiler effect.
  Vote splitting is an electoral effect in which the distribution of votes among multiple similar candidates reduces the chance of winning for any of the similar candidates, and increases the chance of winning for a dissimilar candidate. This is commonly known as the spoiler effect, which can discourage minor party candidacies.
  You can't break the 2 party system that way, that's why they want you to vote 3rd party. That's also why they often fund the 3rd party in the first place.
  There are plenty of systems that allow more parties to join without creating this effect. Your idea of 3rd party is not wrong, just wait until the policy is there to support it, or else you are just hurting your chances of being as aligned as can be with the person in office.
  The first video in the playlist explains this effect
- This might as well say Trump 2024 because that's what you'll get when you toss your vote away going 3rd party.
  Eliminating the two party dynamic won't ever happen from the top down, it's going to have to happen with local elections and move it's way up.
  
  Or maybe it just needs to crash and burn already. It be awesome if I could see some change before the world itself burns down.

I'm certainly not voting for Joe "I'm a Zionist" Biden.
Though to be fair, I'm in Florida so my vote means fuck all anyway. Maybe if I lived in a state he had an ass chance of winning I'd consider that "least harm" BS.

No, you shouldn't vote Democrat - both parties tend to have unimaginably negative foreign policy that perpetuates the American empire across the globe. This is the greatest source of evil in the world - not regressive immigration policy.
This is even why you should consider voting for Trump, regardless of what you think about him: he actually seems to endorse isolationism to some degree. I think they are probably the same concerning Israel, but it is not illogical to say that Trump would've done something else concerning the Ukraine, or that he would have be engaging with China very differently.
- Anything which actively seeks to control others through coercion or social engineering is fascist, IMO, which makes Trump non-unique. One of the greatest manifestations of Democrat fascism is what we saw over the last half-decade with their attempts to create a false narrative around Trump, and to exercise all power available to obscure their own guilt of corruption & collusion by not investigating Hunter Biden and giving sweetheart deals... Moreover, what was the whole J6 debacle but the establishment reasserting dominance by throwing the book at middle aged peasants who dared smack cops on a police line and occupy a Federal space for a couple hours...? That's its own fascism.
  Tell me how this "vote blue" thing is working out for Palestinians, and also for Ukrainians.
- Isolationism would work in favour of Putin, who has his own imperialist streak. I can't say whether Trump will be good or bad for China. His constant sabre rattling with China indicates he might start World War III should he becomes president again. Or, he may leave Asia-Pacific at the ire of American allies, leaving them to further Chinese influence.
  
  This is not a good assessment of the situation at all...
  If American power was truly benign, it would be interested in maintaining Ukrainian neutrality as much as possible to prevent the disaster we have just seen, and simply allow the processes of technology and modernization to erode totalitarian institutions in Russia and, similarly, fought corruption in Ukraine... It would not weaponize the most backwards & corrupt country in Europe through re-energizing the Maidan, throwing a coup using literal Nazi militiamen, and put it on a crash course with Russia, causing it to lose a war abysmally that could have been settled by insisting on some sort of elections in Luhansk/Donetsk with international observers...
  Polling shows that it could've likely resulted in just some autonomous region that would still be within Ukraine...
  But look at we got: at least half a million dead Ukrainians and now it has been all but guaranteed that more than Luhansk & Donetsk will be ceded to Russia.
  You sound like a progressive that would be arguing that the US needed to go into Vietnam to offset Russian & Chinese expansion in southeast Asia, and that the 2 million Vietnamese dead and tens of thousands of working class Americans dying are just these necessary side effects of us being the good guyz.
- This is a propaganda bot
  
  Honestly, I'm here to debate faux progressives that think they can support the oligarch's foreign policy because "ackshually, this all benefits us... Just like the erosion of civil liberties when it's to oppose Drrrroomppfff..."
- This account is 3 hours old.
  
  Before, the most egregious troll I have seen was a five month old account with no prior posting history, threw me a wall of links on DM to "show" why Russia is the victim in the ongoing conflict.
  
  Give me some time and I'll melt your heart.

How about the candidate who will hold Isreal accountable. Which one is that?
- They’re not on the table.
  
  who's gonna be the Green Party candidate?
- We can't even hold ourselves accountable
- That’s not an option in US politics, unfortunately. But one candidate would probably say “nuke Palestine!” and want to send troops, or maybe not depending on what Putin tells him to do.
- Neither of them, lol. Find another wedge issue to make your grand moral stand over.
- i naively believed the other lemming's statement but Cornel West's running. if Jill Stein wins her party's primary, that'll be two candidates with a history of condemning Israel's war on palestinians, both having described that state's actions as genocidal
  
  And a vote for either is a vote for Trump. But if you want to bury your head in the sand and condemn the country to oblivion on principle, well hey, it's a free country for the next 12 months.

Still not voting. The problem hasn't been fixed. That problem is how we vote.
The metaphorical Joker snaps the pool stick in half every 4 years, and ya'll scramble for part of the stick to outdo the other person.
- I'm sure not voting will fix the problem
- Not voting is a vote for the dictator.

2 wings, 1 bird.
- No though

A giant douche or a turd sandwich, who will you choose?
edit: it's a south park reference people, chill. It's just recognizing that both candidates are shitty. Obviously in this case one is far worse than the other, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't vote... fucking vote
- I always hated that episode. A giant douche is functional and useful. A turd sandwich will literally make you sick.
  
  I think you're overthinking it. I just think it's funny how relevant it always seems to be every election

Vote abstinence in situations where you dont like any candidate is a valid option and part of your civic duty in a democracy. Not voting for Biden isn't a vote for Trump, no matter how many times you people try to gaslight yourselves into believing otherwise.
- But the republicans vote Trump no matter what, and now you’ve nullified your vote in protest
  
  And the Democrats vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what. That they have a better candidate is obvious, but pretending that the core would deviate from voting as they're told is not supported by their past behavior.
- Not voting for Biden isn’t a vote for Trump
  It's also essentially you declaring that you don't really mind if Trump gets in. If you were opposed to Trump, you'd actively try to stop him gaining power again. If you're not voting in a way where you try to prevent him gaining power, sure, you're not actively supporting him, but you're still willing to sit by while fascism rears its head. That is what people are judging you for.
  To pick an extreme analogy: if there's a child drowning and you're in a position where you could easily save them but choose not to because you saw that child being mean to someone once, no-one's going to call you a child murderer but people are going to judge the hell out of you for being "the guy who doesn't save drowning children".
  So yes, vote abstinence is an option. But I'd argue what's more a part of your "civic duty" is to prevent fascists rising to power when you personally have a say in preventing that.
  
  Fine, I'll play.
  Democrats and the DNC hold all of the power when it comes to who they field for the election. If their current chosen is polling poorly, if he's not energizing the people that the DNC needs to win, then they have the power to nominate someone who does. If they're willing to risk Trump getting in by fielding the candidate anyway, then they're indicating their willingness to put stubborn pride and the need for control over doing what they know needs to be done.
  The Democrats hold all of the cards when it comes to who to run. If Trump gets in because they cling to stubborn pride, then they have only have themselves to blame.
- Duverger's Law makes it very clear that you don't know anything regarding what you're talking about.
- Vote abstinence means what exactly?
  Because not voting for Biden is absolutely not the same as voting for Trump. That I agree with. Not voting at all though is voting for either. Only by showing up and literally voting for neither is the only way to vote for neither of them.

"I made up this Manichean worldview, therefore I'm correct and you're worse than Hitler"
- Trump is literally saying that immigrants are polluting the blood of the country. He's calling his political opponents vermin and saying he wants to be dictator (don't worry, just one day!) How much clearer could the stakes be?
  
  I bet you can't name 23 times when Trump was racist! I'll wait!
  Okay maybe you can. But how about only in 2023?
  Oh shit, you can do that too?
  Fine then, at least he didn't say anything racist yesterday.
  Oh shit he fucking did?

Genocide Joe really isn't much different lol. Both parties are gradually shifting to the right.
- Did you type that with a straight face
  
  Not sure how their face could be straight when their head is fully shoved up their asshole
- I’d say there was at least ninety-one differences between Trump and Biden.