Sanders says he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible ‘with an organization like Hamas’
Sanders says he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible ‘with an organization like Hamas’
Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders said Sunday he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible in the Israel-Hamas war with “an organization like Hamas” involved.
Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders said Sunday he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible in the Israel-Hamas war with “an organization like Hamas” involved.
“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday.
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I don't think peace is possible when one side is holding the other in an open air prison and giving them only the amount of calories needed to not die (after the war started even that was suspended)
Stop calling it a prison, prisons are for convicted criminals, Palestinian's only crime is being Palestinian. These were open air concentration camps, they are now open air extermination camps
prisons are for convicted criminals,
Always?
No one said the conviction is justified, but yes, convicted.
What is Guantanamo?
A torture camp with no blanket constitutional protections
“Uh it’s just a building with rooms you can’t leave. But it’s not a prison”
Not a prison if that is what you are getting at
That’s not what they’re getting at. They question isn’t “what is it not?”. The question is “what is it?”.
The non-trivial question that moves this forward
Have you ever seen Gaza? I thought it looked more like a city.
Is "open air concentration camps" now a code word for dense urban city?
Honestly this looks like a pretty nice city to me.
It is when trying to leave gets you opened up on by the Israeli air force.
No, a prison is just a facility designed to keep people inside against their will.
Does that change anything?
Hamas is a terrorist organization with strong ties to Iran. We've already seen what happens when terrorist groups destabilize countries and take control. Syria is an ongoing testament to that. So is Afghanistan
Are the Israeli Government's sins the reason why Hamas is in power? The extent is arguable, but it would be a lie to outright say "no".
But... does that change anything?
Hamas is the power in Gaza. Any form of concessions that don't involve the destruction of Hamas will be considered a win because the Palestinian people have been held in an open air prison for decades. And that will just lead to Hamas becoming more powerful.
If someone was abused horrifically as a child and decided to get a gun and take it out on others, what do you do? In a just world, you get them the help that they need. But in any world, the first thing you do is take the gun away before they can hurt anyone else.
What that means in this situation? I don't know. Short of external military intervention, the Israeli government is not going to stand down. And I for one don't want the US and NATO to fuck around in yet another middle eastern country for another two decades only to leave it considerably worse than we found it.
You realize Israel is controlling the prison in reality, right?
Hamas doesn't shoot Palestinians that go to far off the coast, Israel does.
Hamas didn't erect a huge border wall around Gaza, Israel did.
Hamas doesn't control the supply of food, water, and goods into Gaza. Israel does.
Who controls Gaza?
WRT the wall at least:
Hamas's goal from securing power in 2007 has been rejecting the two state solution and destroying Israel leading to many many attacks since then so, maybe securing the border isn't an insane idea? I mean, fuck all good the wall did recently but still.
Hamas doesn't control the supply of food, water, and goods into Gaza. Israel does.
Slightly amend that one, Egypt also supports the blockade. That being said, it's not the fault of all the civilians in Gaza that people voted in 2007 to let a terrorist organization take over and things went poorly because of it. This blockade needs to end. Humanitarian aid needs to be able to get to Gaza.
I'm not going to get fully bogged down in the semantics, but Israel still basically controls the Egypt border.
The US forced a vote, didn't like the outcome, attempted to coup Hamas, and failed. Also, if Hamas is so bad (which they are in many respects), why does Israel fund them and explicitly has a policy of only interacting with them as being the legitimate government?
Easy, they want an unsympathetic enemy that does not want peace. They want to continue the project of taking the rest of Israel for the ethnostate.
I'm overall on board for this comment but how does Israel find Hamas?
It's a deliberate strategy to divide and conquer and create blowback (Oct 7th)
You missed half the article.
Correct on funding, with the aim to provide a glimpse of a better life and work permits - for its people, not the organization in control.
I do find in interesting that there is a thing on Israel funding Hamas while at the same time issues that Israel stopped providing power and food.
I'd be absolutely fine if Israel didn't have Gaza under total blockade and THEN not giving aid. Sure.
But no, if Israel insists on total control (I think is counter productive, but whatever), they gain total responsibility.
You can't just not feed your open air prison full of refugees (of your own making).
WRT to your correction about the wall: Hamas's attacks aren't because they reject the two-state solution; they're because of the blockade. The blockade started in 2005 (not 2007 as is popularly believed; that's when the blockade moved into full force) before Hamas was elected. They withdrew and blockaded the border.
The idea that Israel blockaded Gaza because they of Hamas terrorist attacks is basically Israeli propaganda.
Yes and no, there was a lesser blockade starting in 2005, that's correct. Then halfway into 2007 after violence broke out between Hamas and Fatah which resulted in the first of Hamas's civilian executions in Gaza, the current, and more draconian, blockade was instituted.
Which then, you are correct, Hamas responded to the new restrictions by committing another war crime of firing missiles into urban areas.
That's why it's yes and no, the original blockade no, the much stricter one that is in effect today was however a direct result of Hamas's first war crime after being voted into office.
Like quick edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)
This is what caused the blockade that was supposed to be a temporary one to shift to a draconian ongoing one. War crimes.
That Wikipedia article is a mess that sounds like it was written by a high school student. He said, she said, with very few citations.
That’s basically the entire history of the region and current conflict. Everyone is lying, IDF and supporters, Hamas and supporters. You have to treat all of it as the propaganda it is.
There is no one with clean hands over there.
That’s why it’s yes and no, the original blockade no, the much stricter one that is in effect today was however a direct result of Hamas’s first war crime after being voted into office.
Which was a result of the first blockade. You say lesser, and while it was more lenient that doesn't mean it was fine. Israeli actions in late 2005/2006 destroyed the Gazan economy, and had large destructive effects on the West Bank's.
I never said it was fine, but no Hamas's first war crime in Gaza after taking control was not because of the blockade. They straight up publicly executed their political opponents in the Palestinian Authority. You can't do that and not be labeled terrorists.
But yeah their first war crime in office wasn't even against Israel, it was against fellow Palestinians.
Oh you're talking about that. Yeah that's just indefensible, but I don't see how that meant a permanent blockade was the right move. It was nothing short of pure tyranny.
Also, how was the blockade supposed to be temporary? It lasted for more than a year and a half and showed no signs of being lifted. It only seems to me like Israel took the chance to tighten the blockade.
Well, yeah so we have to take that with a grain a salt. It was claimed that the original blockade was meant to be temporary and the reason it went draconian instead of ending after the transition of power was because the transition of power was violent.
But yeah, just because those are the claims doesn't mean it's actually true, you're correct.
Edit: found it under "description of plan" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
Eventually Gaza was supposed to be opened up and have the airport rebuilt etc etc, whether you take the plan was in good faith though is another thing.
Hamas and Palestine have no power. Their rejecting or accepting any solution is kinda a ridiculous proposition. It's an officer offering an inmate a banana. Just give it to them, there's no need to ask.
At least for #2, you might want to do more research into why hamas doesn't have prisons in Gaza..
How about we start by defunding Israel, followed by sanctions?
And what does that do about the violent terrorists who have already raped and murdered anyone who had the misfortune of being nearby and have repeatedly said they intend to do the same again?
How does that not increase their power?
All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.
Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful
All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.
Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful
So pull a Mexico gun running type operation in Gaza? What could ever go wrong.
It just might force Israel to fucking negotiate the future in good faith, if it no longer felt as if it could continue slow-walking the removal of an entire people from their lands. You are so quick to paint Palestinian violent as barbaric and incomprehensible, yet you ignore the larger scale violence that Israel has been inflicting on Palestine for decades. Bombs from above, collective punishment, punitive control over vital resources, imprisonment and torture of even children! For what? To make more space to house someone descended from ancestors who left that land a thousand years ago?
No. I painted what Hamas did as violent and barbaric and reprehensible. Rape and child killing tends to trigger that.
And you'll note I even pointed out that a good chunk of why Hamas is in power is BECAUSE of the IDF
Again, we have been down this road. Syria is a hellscape. Afghanistan is a hellscape. When terrorists take control of a nation, it is the people who suffer. And regardless of why they are in power right now: they can't continue to be in power if the actual welfare of the Palestinian people matters at all.
But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?
Terrorists are in control of Israel. But then, my country does have a long history of financing terrorists, including in those other countries you mention. But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?
you know, you can add raping babies and eating them in your fairy tales. coward you are !
Was that really necessary?
Ok are you talking about Hamas or the Palestinian people? Cause I keep being told they're different, and that Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians, yet here you are talking about them as if they're the same. So which is it? Cause you're asking me to feel bad for Hamas fighters? Cause I won't.
I didn't mention Hamas, I said Israel is oppressing Palestinians and you should feel bad for the nearly 4,000 children that died.
Hamas is oppressing Palestinians and are responsible for the 4000 children that died. Non hamas Palestinians should try fleeing the country or fighting back against hamas so they can be free
Fight back? Lol. After being born in an open air prison.
After being born into oppression.
After being told they're nothing more than animals.
After being thrown in prison as a kid for decades because they threw stones at a fucking tank.
After being slowly starved to death.
After being evicted from their lands and homes by the Israeli military, AND being mocked by the very settlers that take their homes from them right in front of their faces at the same time.
After their parents, children, siblings, aunts and uncles, their entire fucking bloodline is being bombed to death.
After watching the whole world just stand there and watch them being slaughtered just because Israel has more money, so they can lobby?
After weeks of Israel secretly lobbying the EU and US to displace all Palestinians to the Sinai peninsula, you know, a fucking HUGE part of another sovereign country like that's very normal, all the while killing thousands of people for a little piece of their land? Now I understand why the Egyptian president Sisi told the EU to take in Gazans themselves, if they care so much about human rights.
After kids literally see organs and body parts flying around because of the bombing?
After having no access to water, so no drinking water, toilets, showers, dehumanising them. Opening one water source because of UN pressure and then a few days later bombing that specific water source...
After having no food for a month now.
After threatening the UN to teach them a lesson because they asked for a humanitarian pause.
After killing journalists and their entire family in precision attacks, so they can't report what's really going on?
After killing UN workers?
Right now they've also run out of medicine. One patient's lungs had to be rinsed with ginger. They use effing ginger as an antibiotic/antiseptic. One kids leg had been blown off and they had to operate without anesthesia....
You want these people to fight? LOL.
There's really no way Israel comes out of this as the 'good guy'. The atrocities they committed and still are committing in less than a month's time, has made the world forget about 7/10. THAT says something, because we thought THAT day was bad.
After being evicted from their lands and homes by the Israeli military, AND being mocked by the very settlers that take their homes from them right in front of their faces at the same time.
Actually in Gaza they have the 1967 borders and all the settlers were forcibly evicted in 2004/2005 (some at gunpoint). You're thinking of the West Bank, we're talking about Gaza.
A lot of this rant doesn't really apply to Gaza.
Yes fight back like so many oppressed people have done before. Or flee to a place that doesn't oppress you.
Clearly you didn't read any of that. Where can they go? They are essentially trapped. And of course they have to leave their homes when they're being oppressed.
They are surrounded on 3 sides woth places they can go. Into the water to flee , down into Egypt or up.into Jordan by land.
The Palestinians you are telling to fight back are also children.
And ? Lots of revolutions are lead by the young.
44% of their population is under the age of 15. Name one revolution that was lead by an army of 7 year olds. If by some miracle you can, name one that was lead against a terrorist organization. Not some rinky-dink operation either. Terrorists that were, I don’t know, funded by a country like Iran?
Holy shit, you are actually retarded.
So you're saying literal children, like 5-7 years old, should fight back against armed grown ass men?
16 isn't considered even a teenager in that part of the planet. When people say kid in reference to the middle east, they mean an actual young child.
Removed for ableist language.
Let's be honest here, you removed it because you don't agree with what I said, and used a word that I didn't use in an ableist context as a reason to remove it.
Nope, I removed it due to the "r" word. There are other words and phrases you could have chosen, you chose poorly. Perhaps you need your head examined.
So why would you remove it rather than give me the opportunity to edit the word out?
It's pretty clear that I was not being ableist because the other party does not have a mental handicap of any kind. So it is okay to use other phrases meant to shock and offend someone but not that specific word? How is calling him a dumbass or an idiot any better? In the context of ableism, if he were to have a mental handicap, those words would be equally as offensive.
I hate to say this, but if you are going to partake in political discussion, you have to get ready to hear things that will be offensive to you. Essentially everything that I wrote has been censored because of a single word that is synonymous with so many other words.
I also would like to make it clear that I have a condition that would be categorized as "offensive" by that word, and even then I still fail to understand how that word would be any more offensive than any other word relating to belittling someone's intelligence, that was the entire point of my choice of the word, to convey OFFENSE. It is okay to use offensive language when it is not connected to hate or hate speech.
That is precisely why I think my post was actually deleted was because you do not agree with what I said. If you can prove to me exactly how that word would be any more offensive than the other choices, then I am totally open to what you have to say (and I actually mean that).
Pretty hard to flee the country when the two countries on either side of you won't let you in. So how are they supposed to do it?
If only there wasn't something to the other side they can flee to
The somethings are Israel, who won't let them out and Egypt, who won't let them out. There's no other place for them to go. Look at a map.
You should go and look at a map the medterranean sea is its other border. They can leave by sea. Cubans do it , African do it to reach Italy and so on. So it's very possible to leave the country
You do realize Israel has a navy, right?
And ? So dies Italy, so does the jsa. Migrants still come in on rafts
I'm pretty sure those countries aren't trying to kill the migrants when they try to leave. Sort of a really huge difference.
I'm not sure why you think the Israeli military would see a raft of migrants and not just blow it out of the water.
Setting aside the whole part about you supporting the genocide of Palestinians, you MFing clown the Israeli blockade is also by sea.
Where can they flee?
Honestly if anyone actually cared about the people there's loads of places that could go, I'm sure Israel would even help fund the building of a city on Saudi Arabia or Iran, plenty of space and cities are getting built in the region all the time. They could all live nice happy lives
But no one will let that happen of course because it's not about the people it's about the land, and not even land with resources - land the people funding all this have no intention of ever visiting, but they don't want Israel to have it.
What you are describing is ethnic cleansing
Literally anywhere. Have you looked at the people illegally crossing the usa southern border? There are Russians and idians. They can escape almost anywhere they have access to flight through then ocean or land borders
And become like... The west bank?
oppressed people went with the extreme as they had no hope of freedom and anger built up from their oppression.
if you are angry about these dead children (I am) you want Hamas gone ASAP. their blood is on their hands as much as Israel's
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It would be crazy if you had basic empathy for the almost 4,000 Palestinian children killed
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The fact that you're citing Gaza having a coastline as evidence that it's not an open-air prison, without mentioning that Isreal controls those waters and does not allow Palestinian use of them (aside from small-scale fishing) tell me that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
Educate yourself before telling people to educate themselves. You're spouting bullshit and look a fool.
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Ok, so you're not saying Gaza isn't an open-air prison, you're just defending why it should be one. Cool.
Tell me what Israeli news do you watch? I personally watch i24 and regularly keep up with Israeli politics. Do you even know what Kahanism is, who Ben Gavir is, or why so many people (myself included) despise the far right crime minister BB?
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I'm not simply an American who decided to take interest in Israel, I'm Jewish and regularly speak to Israelis. I have heard them openly talking about how civilian deaths are justified and how killing Arabs is ok. Nearly every day I have to suffer through their horrific propaganda. I understand I have everything to gain yet I refuse to gain from the suffering of 9,000 civilian deaths.
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You aren't wrong, but I can tell you're smart enough to make your point without rule 3 ad hominem attacks.
Abandoned by the world?! Are you completely removed from reality?
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What a load of horse shit lmao.
They ain’t wrong lmao
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👉😎👉
The Likud Party hat that phrase in it's founding charter: "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
Yes, it was used earlier by the PLO but back then the meaning was more like "take back what was ours". It was not against the jews, they were there before the founding of Israel. It was against the forced taking of land by creating the state of Israel.
Extremist forces took it further, especially Hamas. But by then the sitation was already complicated enough for an easy solution...
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I am not your enemy, I'm taking part in a discussion. Also this is my first post in this thread, stop talking like I personally offended you.
I explicitly wrote about the state of Israel and not the Jewish people. So the timeframe of my argument the founding of Israel and the decades after that. Jewish europeans settled there since the end of the 19th century, and for almost half a century it worked. The phrase started being used after that.
Surprise: It's not. They're giving them less than the amount they need not to starve.
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So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?
Their military occupiers, Israel. Or maybe the people blockading them and actually controlling how much aid goes in and how much they can import (with their meagre economy since they're not allowed to export their goods), which is also Israel. Maybe the people who actually created the current situation and actively worked to maintain it so Palestinians can't have peace—you guessed it, Israel.
Their military occupiers, Israel.
Aside for some areas in North Gaza, Israel doesn't occupy the Gaza Strip, and hasn't for decades.
Then why is the Gaza strip considered to be occupied by the UN?
1 nation one vote combine with a European history of hating Jews and Gypsies.
That's... well... an original opinion, at least.
Is it? Have you ever asked a European about their opinions on Jews and Gypsies? I'd make a KKK member blush.
I know that, but assuming that influence somehow makes it all the way to the UN is tenuous at best. You're gonna need proof for that. Also, European countries are 44 out of a total of 193, so even if somehow they were all ruled by antisemites, that's not nearly enough to make the whole UN antisemitic.
The UN is one of the least biased entities in the world, so if you think they're biased, there's a good chance you're the one being biased.
Egypt also could provide help, but for some "strange reason" they do not want. All the countries that cheered on October 7th and supposedly support Palestine, won't provide any help beyond weapons. They don't give damn, their goal is to kill Jews, and if Palestinians die in the process, hey that's "even better".
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How about this: It’s solely unrwas responsibility, but anyone who specifically bombs unrwa resources has to take over fully?
How about this. It's the responsibility of the government in charge, Hamas to consider the feeding and care of it's citizens as a part of its war plan with its neighbors.
Given that the plans that government arranged for are being thwarted by Israel, it seems they are taking steps to reassert their ability to feed their people. I don’t think that’s the best solution here, that Hamas keeps attacking Israel, so I’m looking elsewhere. If you’re content with the way Hamas handles things, by all means, leave them with no humanitarian support or other options.
I don’t think that’s the best solution here, that Hamas keeps attacking Israel, so I’m looking elsewhere.
In normal warfare. When a siege shows that it's has the ability to starve the populace if continued; it's the duty of the seiged to surrender before their population starts to starve.
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All aid has to be approved and funneled through Israel. Remember the freedom floatilla?
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Well it's kind of their responsibility, since you ask, since they're completely blockading them. Otherwise it's undeniably genocidal mass starvation.
Removed for rule three. You can disagree without ad hominem attacks.