7d ago

Daggerheart: I expected another Dungeons and Dragons, but found something much, much better

I run a table. One of the people at the table insisted that I checked out Daggerheart. So I did. And I was very pleasantly surprised.

Why? Well, I admit I had some prejudices against it. First, I sort of made up my mind when I saw the whole licensing issue, Daggerheart basically doing what Wizards of the Coast did with Dungeons and Dragons. But not only that, I also saw red flags in Daggerheart itself: minis.

I saw a video for Daggerheart where the thumbnail showed minis. I was out. I find minis so frustrating. They are in my list of things that I cannot care about. I care about dramatic stories, not combat simulation. I care about intrigue and character growth, not arithmetic. I saw that and assumed that Daggerheart was a combat simulator just like Dungeons and Dragons is. I didn't even pay attention.

But then my friend insisted that I read about Daggerheart. And so I did.

I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that minis are optional. Even more importantly, I was shocked to find a game that effectively is Powered by the Apocalypse. I was especially relieved to not find rules for movement that require trigonometry or strange approximations (unlike Dungeons and Dragons, where there are grids and numbers everywhere).

I found a game that prioritized drama. Yes, it still simulates combat, but it does so in such a simple way that makes me happy to run it.

I’m excited! This would be the first game that I ever play when the game is just released. This would be the first game in which I don't even have to pitch to the table; the table already wants to play it.

Of course, these are my first impressions. Maybe they'll change. For now, I'm happy.

33 comments

I have yet to meet a pbta game I actually like. I was going to check out dagger heart (I have heard nothing positive about it from my customers), I think I will wait for Anna to get a pdf.
- Daggerheart is not at all a PbtA game, though it borrows elements. It borrows pretty heftily from a lot of predecessors besides 5e, like pbta, fitd, cypher/numenera, and SWRPG/Genesys. With imo the last one sharing the most DNA.
- Fair enough. PbtA is not for everyone. In fact, sometimes PbtA is not for me; sometimes I just want to hack and slash and strategize with strict rules instead of creating dramatic stories.
  Have you checked out the PbtA grandpa, Apocalypse World?
- Same here. I was kind of interested in Daggerheart as something to propose as an alternative for my friends who dig the tradgame vibe (I honestly assumed it was going to be very 5e like but with some tweaks and serial numbers filed off), but hearing it's PbtA-like has dashed all my interest.
  
  Totally valid. I assume you like combat simulators like Dungeons and Dragons. Is that the case? If not, what do you dislike about PbtA?
I think Daggerheart is interesting in some ways but I think it's very much tailored to what CR wants to perform rather than what makes a fun game at a table. The mechanics make for predictable narrative peaks and valleys, which give guardrails to DMs with weaker narrative skills. The tradeoff being a more narrow range of outcomes, which is most of the fun in rolling dice.
CR productions have a lot of issues, but I don't think Daggerheart inherently has those deficiencies baked in. Their main problems stem from trying to scale voice-actors-at-a-table into a multimedia empire with sprawling IP. They can all make and perform a good character, but a bag of strong character concepts doesn't turn M. Mercer into R. R. Martin.
Publishing a system without that IP baggage was a good/necessary step, Daggerheart will flourish or flop on its own merits. Hopefully it at least breaks DnD dominance a little more and gives room for more independent publishers (can't resist a bump for Quinns Quest here)
Would be interested to know how it diverges from PbtA? Sounds cool though!
- EDIT: Oh… I just realized you asked how it DIVERGES from PbtA, not how it is similar to PbtA. lol my bad. I'll come back with a more informed response later!
  So far I can confidently tell you that the Player Principles in Daggerheart are very much like the Principles of Apocalypse World:
  Be a fan of the character
  Address the characters
  Look through crosshairs
  Play to find out what happens
  In other words, it gives clear guidance on what it means to be an MC/GM. It's explicit about not railroading. It's explicit about not pulling the rug underneath your players ("Oops! You didn't check for traps! That's 999999 bludgeoning damage coming your way!"). I like when games are this explicit; it's easier to have a conversation about what good and bad GMing looks like.
  I also know that it doesn't just have success and failure (and critical successes and failures). Instead, it has successes and failures that aren't as extreme, so small complications pop up more often.
  The character progression checklist also looks straight up from an Apocalypse World character sheet (in a good way!). [Edit 2: I learned that the checklist might be similar to Apocalypse World, but there's this whole card system where each level involves choosing new feats or abilities or things like that, all related to your class]
  
  Standing by! Haha
- Look also to one heir of PbtA: Blades in the Dark.I'm biaised, I like mist of this game (including Deep Cut).
  
  I've heard good stuff about blades in the dark, I've got time for that. Hell, more than half the time I'm a player I just play someone crazy about dying anyway
- What is PbtA? Well, the Baker's definition:
  "Powered by the Apocalypse" isn't the name of a kind of game, set of game elements, or even the core design thrust of a coherent movement. (Ha! This last, the least so.) Its use in a game's trade dress signifies ONLY that the game was inspired by Apocalypse World in a way that the designer considers significant, and that it follows our policy wrt others' use of our creative work.
  Is Daggerheart inspired by Apocalypse World? I think so: Meguey Baker co-authored Apocalypse World and the post-apocalyptic "Motherboard" campaign frame in Daggerheart. I would be surprised if Mercer would not have credited PbtA somewhere. If Darrington Press would like to, Meg and Vincent would probably approve with the "PbtA" stamp.
  It doesn't use the "2d6+stat" role mechanic but that is not essential just like all the other game mechanics.
  I'm sorry. This is probably not very helpful. Maybe a more precise answer could be given if you ask how it diverges from "Dungeon World" or some other PbtA game you know.
  
  That's cool, I didn't realise PbtA was such a broad term in its own right. I've played a little Dungeon World and others, but not enough to know the background of all that.
I would be interested in reading through this if they release a free rules version. I can't justify paying for a RPG ruleset if I am not going to be playing it. Have they released one yet? There wasn't when I last checked it out.
- You mean like a System Reference Document?
  it's here
  
  Yeah!!! I love a SRD. Looks like I know what I am doing while goofing off at work today
The (VTT) game I'm a player in is moving to DH next campaign after playing the initial pre-releases for a few months and really enjoying it. Next campaign won't be for 4 to 6 months though, so I've haven't gone in to look at what changed.
I see Daggerheart as a possible introduction to PBtA style games most strictly DnD tables may be willing to try. License-related news turned me off the game, I was indifferent before. But I'm happy that it inspires enough interest in tables who refuse to try any other game than DnD. There's nothing wrong with only wanting to play DnD, it's just a pity to miss the opportunity to experience other styles that may be more enjoyable to the groups who force DnD to fill a roll it's not equipped to.
I have a friend who’s looking at developing a series on new DM’s entering Daggerheart. I’m really curious to see how the game waxes while Hasbro seems intent on making 5e wane.
I personally really enjoy 5e for casual play, and would probably play Pathfinder with a great roleplaying party. Not sure about Daggerheart, but curious if it grows on me. Hasbro seems intent on forcing D&D into a subscription model, and the CR people have a real opening here.
- I…would probably play Pathfinder with a great roleplaying party.
  Pathfinder 2e does have some more tools for roleplaying, but the game's real strength is tactical combat. Pathfinder 2e wants to be D&D 4e done right.
I think that the Critical Role crew has done their utmost to conflate DnD with improv stage performance and that Daggerheart looks like nothing more than a platform to continue their failing brand.
Idk, it might be fun — don't let my personal feelings about Critical Role cloud your judgement. I just have been very disappointed with Critical Role and have decided to vote with my wallet.
- Huh. Thanks for sharing. I'm totally up for critically evaluating Critical Role and Daggerheart.
  I do agree that Critical Role's play style was a bit like a square peg in a round hole. Other games could've been more appropriate for them. Arguably a more appropriate game for them is Daggerheart.
  As to not letting your personal feelings about Critical Role cloud my judgement, thanks for caring about not biasing me. At the same time, I'm sure you have good reasons to be critical of Daggerheart. Understanding why we say what we say sounds like a good plan, and I'm curious to hear what you think:
  What is it about Daggerheart that makes you think it's nothing more than a platform to continue their failing brand?
  
  thanks for caring about not biasing me
  Games are games, I try not to yuck anyone's yum.
  What is it about Daggerheart that makes you think it's nothing more than a platform to continue their failing brand?
  I think that if you look at campaign 2 and 3 of Critical Role — there is a very clear decline in quality. This decline in quality has retroactively permeated things like Legend of Vox Machina (Pike, the cleric, suddenly deciding 'Gods r bad'. Very clearly mimicking the poor narrative decisions Matt has made.).
  Now, I don't know if Daggerheart is bad — really it just sounds like it's a platform for improv performance, which I don't dislike! I also think you're right on the money about the square peg in the round hole. I think what I need to see from Daggerheart is that it's worth the amount of effort they put into it, considering how they've treated their DnD campaigns.
  TL;DR — it's hard for me to separate the lack of quality in CR's recent campaigns from Daggerheart. I gave up on CR a long time ago, Daggerheart needs to prove itself to me, and can't be through CR.

33 comments