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  • If Zelensky decides that you should die then you should die. Isn't that what democracy and western values are all about?

    • Then you must know of a country that doesn't make ideological sacrifices while under attack and in a state of war, and has survived such hardship?

      • I don't know a single other modern "country" (that is considered "good" and "democratic" by westerners) that people don't want to defend so much that the regime needs to resort to forbidding people from leaving (and then put a huge effort into patrolling the borders because people want to escape this hell anyway) and literally kidnapping people off the streets and putting them into vans by masked ""people"" on daily basis just to sustain the meatgrinder.

        The only thing that comes close are British press gangs - but that was 2 centuries ago.

        And if there are some recent examples like this - I would absolutely support hanging the tyrants who do this, just like I hope Zelensky would be hanged one day.

        • You really haven't looked at the legal systems around defensive service of most countries, have you?

          Please. I am genuinely asking. Show me a country that doesn't have legal systems in place to press its population into defensive service, and/or suspend elections during wartime.

          I live in Finland, we have one the MOST WILLING populations IN THE WORLD when it comes to self-defense.

          And you know what? The military police still regularly arrests deserters who fail to show up for their conscription. And we're not even at war.

          The alternative, is to not be prepared against threats like Putin, who will WIPE YOU OFF THE MAP given the chance.

          Democracy is a peacetime luxury.

          Not sacrificing thousands to save millions, is a privilege of the leaders who live in a parallel universe that doesn't have Putin in it.

          • Ah yes, the Fins are sure eager to repeat their WW2 'fight for democracy' against the Russians.

            • What?

              Literally no-one here wants war. That's why Finland maintains such efforts to be ready for it, should it happen against our best efforts to prevent it.

              What?

              There are no wars for democracy. Like I said, democracy is a peacetime luxury. Finland fought for independence, and hence the ability to choose to be democratic.

              • Finland fought for independence

                ....on the side of nazi Germany

                And yes, it's always 'defense' now. Not 'war'
                Like your ally 'defended' from a Polish attack or the US needs to defend itself from Irak, Iran, Afghanistan or wherever.
                Imagine a gang arming themselves to the teeth and surrounding 1 person pointing guns at him.
                "Hey, we're only going to defend ourselves"
                That would be the NATO, Russia analogy.
                I could add the gang really hate this guy, which your and other US regime aligned comments make abundantly clear.

                • The US is a travesty of a nation that sometimes does some good. I said absolutely nothing in support of their various brands of BS.

                  And if you think Finland worked with Germany during operation Barbarossa for any other reason except to maintain its existence in the face of an imperial soviet union, I don't know what to tell you.

                  And yeah, people are gonna gang up and surround you if you keep hugging a nuke, threatening to set it off if anyone tries to stop your tantrums.

                  I don't hate Russia. Its people are perfectly capable of decency and peaceful co-operation.

                  But it's current leader is a madman with genuinely dangerous delusions.

                  • I am not a fan of Putin either.
                    But NATO forced his hand, as was always the intention.
                    It is NATO who would be in the face of Russia threatening them with nukes if they let them into ex-ukraine.
                    It's not Russia who unilatery blew up missile treaties and put them in Romania.
                    If Putin would be half as mad as the west claim to be they would be at war by now.
                    Ukraine war is a matter of survival.
                    Just look at history, always the European nations attacking Russia.

                    • History is irrelevant, past "personalities" of countries do not define how they will act in the future.

                      NATO is a defense pact. NATO is not what Putin is scared of, that's just a convenient name that groups together the countries that he percieves as the "source" of the threat.

                      Putin is fully aware that NATO presents absolute zero military danger to Russia.

                      The only reason he hates it, is because each nation that joins, stops worrying about appeasing him, because membership significantly reduces fear of russias military power, and hence his influence over that country.

                      What he is scared of, is progressive western culture. Gay people and trans rights movements give him the heebie jeebies and he doesn't like that stuff coming closer and closer to russias borders, where imaginary lines on the map do nothing to stop the spread and intermingling of culture and ideology.

                      Russia isn't at war to survive. It's at war because Putin is mentally stuck in the 80s and can't handle social progress.

                      • History is irrelevant

                        says the guy from the country with the nazi past (and present)

                        What he is scared of, is progressive western culture. Gay people and trans rights movements give him the heebie jeebies and he doesn’t like that stuff coming closer and closer to russias borders, where imaginary lines on the map do nothing to stop the spread and intermingling of culture and ideology.
                        That is the same reasoning the israeli fascist use as an exuse about the bad muslims they genocide, interesting.

                        And this even more:
                        https://apimagesblog.com/blog/2018/11/12/training-kids-to-kill-at-ukrainian-nationalist-camp

                        It is important, he says, to inculcate the nation’s youth with nationalist thought, so they can battle Vladimir Putin’s Russia as well as “challenges that could completely destroy” European civilization. Among those challenges: LGBT rights, which lecturers denounce as a sign of Western decadence.
                        “You need to be aware of all that,” said instructor Ruslan Andreiko. “All those gender things, all those perversions of modern Bolsheviks who have come to power in Europe and now try to make all those LGBT things like gay pride parades part of the education system.”

                        These thugs beat up a woman's rights march, imagine what they would do to LGBT.
                        As if you genuinely care and not something to validate your racism, Russophobia and aggressive fanaticism.
                        Had enough of you.
                        You can join Azov, Sich, Tornado, Safari or any of the many fascist batallions, you will find likeminded people there.

                      • NATO is a millitary alliance of the most Imperialist countries on the planet. The purpose of NATO is to pressure geopolitical adversaries into opening up their economies for foreign investment and purchase, and crush anyone who would go against that gangsterism millitarily. Mob security is not defensive, it defends extractive processes.

                        NATO is frequently guilty of offensive movements as well, such as Operation Gladio. Really, NATO was formed to oppose Communism, which is why some of their earlier leaders, such as Adolf Heusinger, were literal Nazis who served in the Third Reich.

                        The reason NATO has increased millitarization along Russia's border is to threaten it into opening up its Capital markets to be plundered by foreign Imperialists, just like what happened after the dissolution of the USSR before the Nationalists took power. Russia is no saint, it isn't some grand hero, but without NATO trying to get Russia to open back up again the invasion likely never would have happened, as war is expensive in lives and materiel.

                        Trying to make this about "culture," when Ukraine is also extremely socially conservative, makes no sense. If this was about opposing LGBTQ rights and "western values," Russia would have invaded other countries with more progressive social values. Instead, they invaded Ukraine with the express goal of demillitarizing it, and extended a peace deal early in the war on the conditions of Ukrainian neutrality with respect to NATO and demillitarization. The UK and US stepped in to deny this, as they wished to milk Ukraine dry with brutal IMF loans so that they can profit off of the suffering of Ukrainians.

          • You haven't provided an example of a "country" where the regime does the same shit as Zelensky.

            Show me videos of masked ""people"" with rifles grabbing, beating and forcing people into vans to send them to the meatgrinder on a daily basis.

            • There are other similarly developed countries under siege with which we can compare?

              Organized wartime defense is a lot more complex than kidnapping a bunch of people and sending them in the general direction of the front. That isn't how any of this works.

              I know of one country that's behind the agression... And one that probably IS using such tactics, considering their battlefield results. One which could stop at any time under no threat to its own sovereignty.

              I honestly cannot comprehend your failure to realize that wartime and peacetime standards of government differ more than a little, or that your understanding of the situation is superficial at best.

              That goes for all of us, unless you happen to be an actual commanding officer on either side of the conflict?

              • There are other similarly developed countries under siege with which we can compare?

                So there are no similar cases and we can at least agree that atrocities being commited by Zelensky's regime are unprecedented in modern times. Well that's something already.

                And one that probably IS using such tactics

                Oh come on, be serious please. The west supports Ukraine almost as much as it hates Russia. And yet even western medias are writing about kidnapping in Ukraine and not in Russia. If it was happening in Russia - medias would not be able to stop writing about it.

                or that your understanding of the situation is superficial at best

                Yeah it is indeed hard for me to understand how people support me and everybody I know getting kidnapped, beaten and killed, despite us never doing anything bad to you (except of course not dying protecting your geopolitical interest).

                • When under attack, countries rescind the freedom and rights of a subset of its population, in order to maintain them for the rest.

                  In a democratic country, the laws to do that are created in advance, and the power to wield them assigned through election.

                  Everyone hopes they will never be necessary, but we can't be surprised that when under military invasion, they are used.

                  "Meatgrinder" effectively illustrates the pointlessness of war, but you are using it as if to dismiss the fact that sustaining that same "meatgrinder" is the only reason the country of Ukraine still exists.

                  I'm Finnish. I am watching everything that happens in Ukraine as something that might happen to my country, and to me personally. In a paralell universe, Ukraine is at peace, and we're the ones suffering a pointless "special military operation". If Putin was smart, and looked to the future, going for our lithium reserves would have made a lot more sense than the fossil fuel resources of Ukraine. (Then again, rare earth minerals are present in Ukraine, too)

                  And you misunderstand me. I do not want you dead. I do not want you fighting for me. I do not "support" war.

                  But I understand the systems and mechanisms of a nation, which maintain its existense. The standards of a peacetime government can only be so high, because maintaining them does not risk trading in the existence of the nation that is upholding them.

                  Should there be a trial afterwards, investigating sacrifices that were obviously pointless? Absolutely.

                  And is there a point where the sacrifice is no longer worth it in comparison to surrender? To this, I have no answer.

                  I would probably trade in my country, to see my friends and family spared. But I am a lot less certain that would result in a better world afterwards.

                  • "Meatgrinder" effectively illustrates the pointlessness of war, but you are using it as if to dismiss the fact that sustaining that same "meatgrinder" is the only reason the country of Ukraine still exists.

                    It absolutely would, and would be extremely better off than it is now, what are you talking about?
                    The reason behind a need for kidnappings is that (well, among other reasons, but that's the biggest one of course) Zelensky wanted to join NATO. NATO recently said that Ukraine will not join. So the war was pointless to such a ridiculous degree that I don't have words to express it. It led to loss of people, territories, infrastructure and everything else and gained absolutely nothing (except billions stolen by the regime and huge debt of course). It was, and still is, all Zelensky's choice.

                    Anyway, nothing justifies what Zelensky does. Russia is literally liberating the people under Zelensky's regime. If I stayed in Ukraine (on Zelensky controlled territory) I would be his slave and maybe already dead. If I was on territory liberated by Russia on the other hand - I would be no less free than I was before/am now. What you are describing as "being 'conquered' by Russia" is absolutely a preferential scenario to living under Zelensky's regime (supported by "free and democratic" "world") that is going to kill you.

                    • It absolutely would, and would be extremely better off than it is now, what are you talking about?

                      That is a discussion with no resolution. Like I said, I don't know where the point is, when sacrifice become worse than surrender.

                      Particularly because both are unknowable quantities.

                      You seem to consider the matter from a purely personal perspective, which is perfectly valid, but will of course result in different conclusions than someone who cares about what changes it would mean for society, and the state of the world. And you obviously view Russia a lot more favorably than I do. I'm not interested in changing your mind there.

                      For what it's worth, I don't think the western world should tolerate any of this. I think Ukraine should have been admitted into NATO, immediately, and for article 5 to have been retroactively shoved up Putin's ass before this ever got out of hand.

                      I think, that in similar fashion to Russia, the western world has the power to end the conflict tomorrow, and is failing to do so.

                      • That is a discussion with no resolution. Like I said, I don't know where the point is, when sacrifice become worse than surrender.

                        So maybe the people that are actually affected should be able decide that (as opposed to a single dictator with western support)? Currently, thanks to western support of Zelensky, the only way people can "decide" anything is by doing a violent revolution against the regime, which would not have a good chance of success due to weapon supplies to Zelensky's regime. Or by individually resisting/killing "draft "officers"" and bombing ""recruitment centers"".. Which people already do but on a small scale so it doesn't change the big picture...

                        You seem to consider the matter from a purely personal perspective

                        What do you mean exactly here? I left Ukraine before the war started, so from "personal perspective" I am actually safe (unless Zelensky manages to convince other countries to send back his cannon fodder..). I am considering this from the perspective of people (among whom my family and friends) who still live under Zelensky's regime. Who are nothing more than slaves, cannon fodder for Zelensky and his supporters.

                        And you obviously view Russia a lot more favorably than I do.

                        FWIW I don't consider Russia a good/bad country. I only speak of it in comparison to Ukraine, where it is objectively better and more free.

        • Considering Ukraine is the only modern/western democracy to have been invaded for territorial conquest in about 80 years demonstrates the level of bullshit that you're spouting.

        • A brief scroll of Wikipedia (the sources seemed legit) shows that, for example, Cuba (which I'm assuming you admire?) has mandatory military service, no known policy of alternatives for conscientious objectors, and harsh punishments for evading it even in peacetime, to the point that people have attempted to injure themselves to get out of it. They haven't been tried in modern war, but can't see them suddenly relaxing the rules when actually tested. Border countries tend to take defence very seriously.

          For countries and cultures bordering Russia, this really is an existential question. The forced population transfer/ethnic cleansing of Tatars, Ingrians, Chechens and Ingush, Balkars, etc. show what tends to happen. And before you say "well that was Stalin", I'll point to the Russification efforts of Alexander III and Nicholas II, and to... well, just about all speakers of Uralic languages still existing in Russia, facing steadily or rapidly declining numbers. Also the number of people identifying as ethnic Russians in the Baltics and Crimea, directly attributable to said forced population transfers; Transnistria, where the change happened more organically but was nonetheless used as an excuse for invasion; and to some degree in eastern Ukraine, that saw significant russification attempts and Russians moving in to man the industrial centers during SU, inflating the numbers of ethnic Russians and prevalence of the Russian language at cost of the native population.

      • The US, since they make decisions on ideological sacrifices for other countries.

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