Thunderbird "won't be adopting the firefox terms of use"
@_marco_@masto.pt @ponda @thelinuxEXP@mastodon.social We also wanted to additionally clarify that we won't be adopting the Firefox Terms of Use for Thunderbird, either on desktop or on mobile.
Thought this was interesting and worth knowing about
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Who is the moron at Mozilla that thought it would be a good idea to sell user information, and how much does he make a year?
$6M, but if you look at the California law that spurred this change, the Privacy Policy that hasn't changed since July 2024, and the revised ToS, this looks mostly like a really, really, really stupid communication error.
It's one of those cases where legally, "sell" includes things that most people wouldn't consider a sale in normal parlance, but Mozilla has to comply with the overbroad legal definition; meanwhile, they don't appear to be fundamentally changing anything about how they're operating.
ETA: I'm still moving to LibreWolf (and maybe Ladybird later on). I'm not a lawyer, and expecting people like me to parse legal definitions of commonly understood words is just asinine.
The thing is, I don't want Mozilla to be "really this shouldn't be called selling" my info either. This was my call to jump ship to a fork that doesn't give any data to Mozilla in the first place by adopting a downstream fork.
I probably already wasn't giving Mozilla any data to "not sell" in the first place, since I've got telemetry disabled and used about:config to strip out all of their non-browsing functions. But why trust a "probably" that also inevitably needs more attention when they roll in some AI assistant nonsense I don't want (or whatever) when I can just find a fork of their FOSS product that's run by people that don't want my data in the first place?
That's kinda my feeling, too. It doesn't appear to be any worse than a year ago, but if you were already not impressed, this is not an improvement.
where legally, "sell" includes things that most people wouldn't consider a sale
Allowing access for valuable consideration is pretty cut and dry. What is the legislation defining beyond that?
To quote this wiki that did a very good job of breaking down this clusterfuck:
The CCPA defines "selling data" as:
“Sell,” “selling,” “sale,” or “sold,” means selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or other means, a consumer’s personal information by the business to a third party for monetary or other valuable consideration.
The sticking point is that last "other valuable consideration." The question that people should be asking is: "valuable to whom and in what capacity?" Value does not need to be for financial gain; knowledge is valuable to a contractor building a building, for example.
But I recommend reading that wiki breakdown or just watch this video. It's a mess that can't be untangled in a simple Lemmy comment.
I don’t want Mozilla to be handling my personal data in any way. Anonymized usage statistics? I could be convinced to relinquish that. But that’s it.
From what I understand, usage stats are anonymized, and you can opt out of telemetry. But as I personally move to more hardened and private ways to connect, I'm moving to LibreWolf to err on the side of caution.
It all feels like flying too close to the sun for my taste. I don't like the idea of normalizing policies that aren't cut and dry and easy to understand. Have a legal version and a version for dumb people like me if needed, but don't expect me to play lawyer and connect the dots.
Yes, you can opt out, you simply send an request with your data to Alphabet INC.
I’m with you. Those TOUs are unacceptable.
legally,"sell" includes things that most people wouldn't consider a sale in normal parlance
Like what, any specific examples?
I have been hearing this repeatedly as a talking point from people defending Firefox but without any specific example of what they do and don’t allow themselves to take and sell, it rings quite hollow.
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/update-on-terms-of-use/
The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or other means, a consumer’s personal information by [a] business to another business or a third party” in exchange for “monetary” or “other valuable consideration.”
If they give anybody any information for any reason, they open themselves to litigation - however frivolous and unwarranted - because the laws are written to be intentionally vague, to capture a wide variety of scenarios, including those that the law does not explicitly state. There are tons of valuable exchanges that could occur other than strictly data for money, and those exchanges are therefore captured within this new legal definition. To protect themselves from frivolous lawsuits and to remain consistent within the new definitions of these laws, Firefox/Mozilla has changed their Terms of Use. Their uses of data are outlined within their Privacy Policy (linked within the above post).
I suppose this information is only valuable if one trusts Mozilla - one of the most stalwart, dedicated, and outspoken advocates for consumer rights in the digital age.
I'm not saying Mozilla is infallible or above reproach - nobody/nothing is or should be considered so - but if I'm gonna trust any group that says "I'm not fucking you over" it's gonna be the group that has a consistent and very clear history of championing the idea of not fucking people over
Doesn't the new wording also include monetary exchange as well. Wouldn't that mean they could sell your data at anytime even if they are currently not?
They could tell us precisely what they're selling, and to whom, and give us a button to say "hell no", and it'd be largely fine. Instead, it's a bunch of "oh, you wouldn't understand"
To be clear, I'm not particularly interested in defending Mozilla. This confusing mess is at least partly their fault, and I think users are right to hold them accountable. I just want people to be able to make informed decisions and not ones based on the internet blowing things up needlessly.
Rather than repeat myself, here's my comment to someone who asked basically the same thing.
Is Librewolf comparable with the rest of my Firefox add-ons?
Yeah and it comes with ublock origin as the only pre-installed extension.
It’s a drop in replacement. It’s pre hardened so you may want to relax the settings a bit to get some comfort (at the expense of privacy). But otherwise you’ll feel right at home.
Yes, it should be. From what I can tell, it's a tweaked Firefox.
Ladybird is interesting, but not ready to be a daily driver yet.
Alpha release is expected in 2026, it isn't trying to be ready yet, and I love that.
I'd rather have something fully cooked than half-baked.
You're missing the point:
It isn't supposed to be ready, of course you'd rather have something ready. Ladybird is not even available yet unless you're building from source to test the pre alpha progress
Okay but nobody in this thread criticized Ladybird for being incomplete. It was only mentioned by someone who dropped Firefox for Librewolf as something on their radar to maybe switch to in the future when it's complete. If someone wants to swap browsers right now, Ladybird is not a reasonable consideration, but people are keeping it in the conversation as something to follow in the future.