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Framework’s first desktop is a strange—but unique—mini ITX gaming PC

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  • So... now Framework Corp is selling non-upgradable hardware?

    I dunno. Conceptually I want to like Framework. But their pricing means it is basically never worth buying and upgrading versus just buying a new laptop (seriously, run the numbers. You basically save 10 bucks over two generations of shopping at Best Buy). But they also have a system that heavily encourages people to horde spare parts rather than just take it to an e-waste disposal facility/bin.

    • You get fast memory as a result. If you don't care about the fast memory, there's no good reason to buy this, with their motherboard. There's a use case this serves which can't be served by traditional slotted memory and the alternative is to buy 4-5 NVIDIA 3090/4090/5090. If you want that use case, then this is a pretty good deal.

      • And your phone isn't repairable because it needs to be water proof. Your earbuds because of power efficiency. Etc.

        Also, I suggest watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3zB9EFntmA.

        But, to be clear: I am actually not as opposed to the idea of soldered ram when you have "an excuse". Same with phones. But framework is a brand that tries to build itself on minimizing e-waste and maximizing repairability and... hey, at least we can still swap out the side panel on their prebuilt!

        • As far as I read LPCAMM in its current state does not work for this. The electrical noise is too high. These things aren't the same. A repairable waterproof phone can be made without glue by making it a bit thicker. In the case of RAM today, we're hitting fundamental physics limitations with speed of electricity and noise. At this point the physical interconnect itself becomes a problem. Gold contact points become antennas that induce noise into adjacent parts of the system. I'm not trying to excuse Framework here. I'm saying that the difficulty here borders on the impossible. If this RAM was soldered and it had bandwidth no different than SODIMM or LPCAMM modules then I'd say Framework fucked up making it soldered, majorly. As I said, there's no point buying this if you don't care about the fast RAM and use cases that need it like LLMs. Regular ITX board with regular AM5 is the way to go.

          E: To be clear, if this bandwidth could be achieved with LPCAMM, then Framework fucked up.

    • It will be faster than most next-gen laptops, and it's much cheaper than a similarly-specced Asus Z13. Strix Halo uses a quad channel 8533Mhz bus, 2 full Zen CCDs like you find in desktops/servers, and a 40 CU GPU. Its more than twice the size/performance of two true "laptop chips" put together.

      Everything except the APU/RAM/Mobo combo is upgradable, and you don't have to replace the whole machine if the board fails.

      I mean, if you don't need that kind of compute/RAM, this system is not for you, and old gaming desktops are probably better deals for pure gaming. But this thing has a niche.

    • No, the pc is upgradable. They explicitly said in the event that the desktop was suppose to be an actual desktop with replaceable parts as much as technically possible. Only ram is tied to the mobo/cpu because of technical limitations of the amd cpu

    • their pricing means it is basically never worth buying and upgrading versus just buying a new laptop (seriously, run the numbers. You basically save 10 bucks over two generations of shopping at Best Buy).

      Maybe so. But the big difference is, you can upgrade iteratively rather than taking the entire hit of a new device all at once. So I can buy all of the individual components of my next laptop a few hundred dollars at a time over the course of a couple of years, and use them as I get them. By the time I've ship-of-theseus'd the whole device, I may have spent the same amount of money on that new computer, but I paced it how I wanted it. Then I put all of the old components into an enclosure and now I can use it as a media center or whatever. Plus, if something breaks, I can fix it.

      • What exactly can you upgrade iteratively?

        From the laptop perspective (because the desktop is totally all about that side panel life):

        1. Memory: Ultrabooks are hell, no arguments there. But many brands have increasingly allowed at least one SODIMM to be swapped out and many still no longer solder the other one. And I'll say, from personal experience, that buying and swapping out RAM in a relatively new-ish laptop often comes out closer to the price of just paying for the upgraded SKU to begin with. So there is the logic of "I'll add another 16 GB in two years" but... yeah.
        2. Storage: Again, same. Except that they tend to not even solder down the nvmes. There are some particularly asshole vendors but they are few and far between. And this totally is worth doing since they tend to be fairly standard nvme drives or the small SSD that I always forget the format of. Rather than RAM that is only used by laptops and NUCs and costs an arm and a leg...
        3. Ports: Framework laptops just use USB C dongles for everything. They have a semi-proprietary format for those but it is still, fundamentally, a usb c dongle. And, from talking to a mutual on a discord who has one, it has the same fundamental problem that USB C dongles/hubs do when installing the more finicky OSes (hi Proxmox and OpnSense) where you can't actually access the hub capabilities until AFTER the OS is installed (the more live CD based distros avoid this). So no difference in terms of upgrades and modularity outside of having fewer vendors to buy a dongle from if you care about form factor that much.
        4. CPU: Only if you swap out the motherboard which is the vast majority of the price of the laptop anyway.
        5. Keyboard, display, etc: These are less "upgrades" so much as replacements. Which are good arguments for repairability but also... go actually look at ifixit's website and see how many laptops are repairable. It is mostly just apple who suck horrifically

        And just because it always amuses me and never fails, let's price out upgrading/replacing a framework (uplacing?). I'll assume no parts failed to keep prices simple and "You can replace your keyboard every time it fails over a five year period" is not the flex people think it is. I'll use the intel core ultra series 1 because that is in stock and not a preorder. We are dealing with last year's model (I think. I haven't followed Intel laptop processors too much) so there is inherently wiggle room there, but it is theoretically fair as it is last year's model for both of them since I had to dig deep into the framework site to find an Intel since fuck Best Buy's website if you are trying to compare AMDs (also fuck AMD for their naming insanity).

        So we are already looking at the framework being about 120 USD more expensive without looking at any configurations or upgrades.

        So let's get into that hyperbolic time chamber and totally not have gay sex with the glistening man hunk known as Vegeta. Five years later, let's consider an upgrade... to the same SKU.

        On the Framework marketplace, another 125H mobo costs 399 USD right now.

        • Framework: 999 + 399 = 1398 for two generations of a laptop
        • Best Buy: 879 + 879 = 1758
        • For a total savings of 1758-1398 = 360 USD over 5 years of getting soaked by that galick gun

        Which is nothing to balk at. But that assumes that your display and keyboard held up and didn't need replacing, you liked all the default dongles Framework gave you (which is apparently just four USB C ports... to plug into the four USB C ports on the laptop), and, most importantly, that Framework didn't change their form factor (I am not sure if they did for the 16 inch laptops to support the "modular" keyboards). Every spare dongle or repaired/upgraded part costs money. Versus being guaranteed a "pristine" new laptop... full of massive amounts of bloatware that you immediately format the shit out of to put Linux on that.

        And, obvious grain of salt, the past few times I have done this exercise it was closer to 100 USD. Framework just happen to be dumping large amounts of old stock right now for their new models so the prices are better and the comparisons are more tedious.

        Again, conceptually I like Framework. And, for as much as I mock them, I actually do like the form factor for their dongles a lot. Give me a computer with a shit ton of USB C ports but also let me leep it usable at work without needing to carry around my sketchy anker dongle/dock. And I don't really fault them too much for not letting you actually swap CPUs since that was basically something only the sickest of sickos did until the AM4 socket lasted like 40 years somehow.

        But their key strength is marketing and that has only gotten stronger since they got the full power of linus media group behind them because that company needs to protect their shareholders' investment.

        And, like I said before, I do worry that this just encourages people to hoard parts. Like... anyone who has built a desktop or two has that big plastic bin full of old ram and mobos and even graphics cards that they might use someday but never will (PSU is totally worth saving though).

        • What exactly can you upgrade iteratively?

          At the price point, being able to upgrade memory, storage, and motherboard is unique. And I know you say that it's the "vast majority" of the cost, but I just bought a Framework 13 last month (I know, great timing) and the mainboard was right around half the total cost. So sure, the most expensive single component, but it means that I can upgrade to a better-performing machine in the future for half the price and not need to junk everything else.

          Framework laptops just use USB C dongles for everything.

          Correct. But honestly, having the swappable I/O is fantastic; over the last five laptops I've owned, I've only upgraded because I wanted new capabilities once. For the other four, it's because a component failed; and in two of them it was a USB port, while in a third it was a charging port. Being able to replace those would have extended the lives of those machines substantially.

          fewer vendors to buy a dongle from

          Actually, they're open-source (not proprietary). And since they're USB-C, you could probably just take out the card and plug a dongle right in there if you really needed to (I have not tried this).

          Framework: 999 + 399 = 1398 for two generations of a laptop

          I'm planning to hold on to this device for a whole lot longer than two generations. If I can, I'd like to hang on to it for 15-20 years. The laptop I upgraded from was five years old or so (and would still be going strong if it didn't have a port that was about to die and un-upgradeable RAM and storage), and my desktop is 13 years old and still going strong, so this isn't terribly unreasonable. I would estimate that I'll end up pouring about $2000, all told, into this laptop over that time period, likely replacing 3-4 laptop purchases and giving me a better machine during that time period.

          that assumes that your display and keyboard held up and didn't need replacing,

          Both of which would be cheaper than a new device. A new display is $150 and a new keyboard is $30. I don't know about the longevity of each component, but based on the research I did it's definitely not worse than an off-the-shelf machine.

          you liked all the default dongles Framework gave you (which is apparently just four USB C ports... to plug into the four USB C ports on the laptop),

          There aren't any defaults. When you spec out your kit, you choose which cards to purchase. Replacing them costs about $10. (EDIT: The USB-C ones cost $10. The other ones are variously priced between $10-40, and then there are some storage expansions that cost more because they're basically SSD in the expansion card form factor).

          and, most importantly, that Framework didn't change their form factor

          They've only done that once since they launched, across six updates to the components. When they made that upgrade, they offered a $90 top cover to bring first gen devices up to second gen specs.

          (I am not sure if they did for the 16 inch laptops to support the "modular" keyboards).

          There's only been one generation of the 16 inch laptops, and they've always had the modular keyboards. The refresh they announced yesterday is just to components, not to chassis.

          Every spare dongle or repaired/upgraded part costs money.

          Yep, and I'm fine with that because it means that I can spec it out the way I want; I don't have to pay for I/O that I'll never use. My old laptop had an SD card reader and a DisplayPort output; I literally never used either. The one I had before it had a SATA connector on the external I/O, and a couple of other pieces of nonsense that I didn't want or need. Actually, thinking back, I don't know if I've ever owned a laptop (until this one) where I actually used all of the ports.

          And I don't really fault them too much for not letting you actually swap CPUs since that was basically something only the sickest of sickos did

          Yeah, I think swappable CPUs on a laptop are a thing of the past. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it coming back.

          I do worry that this just encourages people to hoard parts

          I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM

          I CAN STOP WHENEVER I WANT TO

269 comments