Since Xorg is getting old, looking at trying Wayland WMs
Since Xorg is getting old, looking at trying Wayland WMs
246 comments
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I'd love to try a tiling wm but KDE and mate are the only things i can get to look the way i like, and i can't find anyone else that made a glossy frutiger aero hyprland rice
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Wayland breaks VMware and steam for me. Am I stupid?
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In addition to what Neonred wrote: Steam Deck uses Wayland by default and its Steam is configured to run just fine on Wayland, even if it's possibly using XWayland behind the scenes.
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If dmenu was made by a nazi I wouldn't give a shit because its just dmenu but hyprland is so clearly made by a pack of
/g/zoomers who want their desktops to look like 1337 haXors without any access to the low level systems. Its all discord script kiddie hype-beasts.Its a tiling window manager made by people who never used a tiling window manager on X11. I know I'm sounding like an elitist boomer but this shit really violates some core Unix principals of making small composable utilities that empower the user. RiverWM or Sway keep to this philosophy.
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too bad the guy behind hyprland is a shitty little nazi twerp
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It's open source right? Can't a new maintainer just fork it and tell the Nazi to punch himself?
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Sure.
I ain't gonna do it tho. KDE is working well enough for me.
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Hyprland is transphobic
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issue is, so many things have been called transphobic, from mere personal opinions to accidents to actual transphobia, i just can't trust a blanket "foo is transphobic" comment.
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Hyprland's community has a history of toxicity: https://drewdevault.com/2023/09/17/Hyprland-toxicity.html
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Sounds and smells like actual bullshit to me
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What? How is software transphobic
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Because people are still Reddit-brained, have no capacity for nuance and thrive on outrage like an addict.
For the addicts with their finger smashing the downvote button:
Elon Musk is an idiot. But that doesn't mean that a Tesla Model S is an idiot.
A Hyprland developer could be transphobic, members who comment in the community could be transphobic but that doesn't make the software transphobic.
Software doesn't have political opinions.
If you want to not be hypocritical and examine all products with the same ridiculous level of scrutiny then you're probably using electronic components in your house, car, smartphone and PC that were sourced using slave labor, child labor or built by countries that engage in human rights abuse.
The electricity used to allow you to uncritically attack people online was generated by means which contribute to climate change which will kill or displace hundreds of millions of people.
The language you're using is primarily used by cultures who have historically engaged in colonialism, piracy, slavery, religious oppression, ethnic cleansing and wars of aggression.
So, unless you're willing to sit in a forest and never communicate with another person, you're going to be using technology which, if you pedantically dig deep enough, you can find some "problematic" behaviors associated with.
Or, you could not act ignorant in online spaces. That's also an option.
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It's software with no opinion.
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While hyprland is really nice, it is made by a transphobe and a large part of the community is also. Switch to something else there are a lot of good alternatives. Kind of a protest against him.
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if I don't pay the dev, and dont interact with the community, whats wrong with hyprland?
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Pretty sure the lead lemmy dev has said some transphobic things as well. They're a major tankie at least.
Thanks for the heads up, but I'm browsing lemmy on a device that is produced at least in part by slave labor somewhere along the logistics chain. At some point I think you just have to disengage from developer drama.
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It's in large part made thanks to slave and child labour, with rare metals more-often-than-not sourced in areas of conflict.
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At some point I think you just have to disengage from developer drama.
Let's not remind them who made JavaScript, lol.
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Fair take. Still i try to at least somewhat distance myself from people who want to murder my friends and family... sometimes youre forced to used somethi g you dont want to. Still with linux ricing it is a bit hypocritical to say that you want to use the easiest option as ricing is literally taking the hard path. Just use kde or gnome then. Also, hate the transphobes and not the people who use the software they make, important note.
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Using hyprland in no way benefits the developer to be clear, I would just not donate, beyond that it really doesn't matter
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[…] [Hyprland] is made by a transphobe and a large part of the community is also […]
Do you have a source?
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I just wish the lead person wasn't you know... Only reason I'm on KDE.
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I'm on sway for the same reason.
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On river here, loving it
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I just didn't jive with sway for some reason. Also not letting me tell it that I understand it doesn't support Nvidia just once got annoying really quickly lmao.
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What do you folks on hyprland/sway use for your shell / toolbars / launcher? I tried nwg and it was... OK but pretty clunky. No shade for the developers of the project, all the settings pages and system config stuff is a TON to put together...
I don't need something as full-featured as KDE or Gnome Settings. I'd prefer a well-polished minimalist launcher and task manager / toolbar over something that does everything
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I'm ootl, whats wrong with the lead person?
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cryptofash that hides behind free speech and allows nazis and that to post in the discord and banned a trans person that called out the messages by those users for "inciting arguments" and repeatedly misgendered them then went on about how they're not bigoted they just believe in free speech and blamed the user and pretending they were the victim and then when people said they should have a code of conduct he said doing that was just a hassle and how it would make it impossible to do lead dev stuff for him to enforce the rules while saying they have rules against that sort of thing anyway so blatant doublespeak where he's saying he's moderating and everyone's lying but also if he had to moderate he'd be too busy to develop
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Adamant transphobe, but in that insidious way where they justify letting people get bullied in the Discord because their "not on anyone's side and value different opinions". A trans person in the Discord server was targeted by another member and intentionally misgendered repeatedly. They spent multiple blogs basically saying "people are snowflakes, we dont want an echo chamber". Like wtf. (IIRC, working off my memory since I read about it like 2 months ago)
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Wayland is pretty darn great nowadays, hell I'm running KDE and got HDR on my desktop; haven't had any odd goings on since 2023 (though nvidia is still meh)
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When isn't nvidia meh?
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It's funny. I used gnome for a long time, and after I fully switched to Debian, I didn't have any problems with my nvidia card with gnome + wayland. But I switched to plasma recently, and it's janky. I figured out my vsync issues, but it still runs a post when I wake it from sleep, which just defeats the purpose of sleep mode. I might as well shut it down every time I'm done using it like it's 1997.
But I started using X + KDE, and most of my problems went away. Still takes forever to wake from sleep. But that's it, really.
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Same. Intel ran it great, but Nvidia is still pretty bad about running Wayland.
When the Steam Deck dropped I got an AMD GPU and it's close.to Intel levels of seamless. That's when I knew that Wayland is more than ready, Nvidia just still is not.
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Works great... until you realize your GPU isn't liked by Wayland when you have more than one monitor lol. Then Wayland is uninstalled and you go back to Xorg or XFCE.
It's weird, had this issue with multiple monitors where wayland is either a glitchy refresh rate mess or just doesn't recognize at all. Nvidia, amd, discrete or dedicated, native driver or oem driver: they're all finicky under wayland when multiple monitors are used.
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It really is pretty great nowadays. I always had both my laptops with fractional scaling and currently it all seems to work very well, no more weird renderings anywhere. And a greater thing, I had a external screen I left unused for multiple years because it needed to be used with a different fractional scaling than the laptop it was connected and now it just works and I can finally use it. It's nice. I don't have hdr needs but color management seems to be properly in place now and the bugs I had previously with it are also gone - like it did something weird on some video recording app and some weird stuff with that thing that changes the color of the screen when it's night - it all just works now.
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Electron apps are still broken if you’re on Hyprland and NVIDIA. They just randomly stop working, and when I last checked, nobody had yet figured out why.
It’s why I’m on KDE, because that’s been perfectly stable for me. Plus, KDE is great anyway.
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Old ≠ bad
Personally I don't need fancy. I need stability. If it ain't broken, don't fix it, and I haven't experienced issues with Xorg... But then again, I ditched Ubuntu in 2012 because they switched to that awful search bar launcher doohickey, so I might be a dinosaur in this regard.
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If it ain’t broken
But it is...
I still have (or rather had) some screen-tearing somewhere. I very much have annihilated that issue with settings in X11 (though some application somewhere still has issues, be it the video player). And it just feels clunky non the less.
Although I'm currently not using Hyprland, it really feels nice to use, really flowy. I'm currently testing COSMIC (which is reasonably still in alpha, as I got issues with *** nvidia, like suspend sometimes hangs the computer).
That said, I think it's still ok to wait until the whole ecosystem is well supported in wayland, and *** nvidia finally got their wayland shit together.
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If it ain’t broken
But it is...
OK, let me add to that: if it works for me I ain't doing anything.
If Xorg doesn't work for your use case, then of course you should deal with it.
But I don't game, the wildest graphical stuff I do is watching a video while running a terminal emulator, and I hate changes to my work flow.
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Tried using Wayland recently, but alas, my Nvidia GPU holds me back once again.
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My laptop has a 3050 in it running Garuda Linux under Wayland and its been working well without any fuss. I tried bazzite but the drivers put me on the struggle bus... It never would leave "hybrid mode" and trying to play a game just wouldn't touch the dgpu so performance would be igpu trash mode.
I'd love to know what is different between garuda and bazzite to try to get bazzite to work as I did really like it, but it eluded me. I guess my point is that you might have better luck trying a different distro unfortunately. It feels like there are enough variables that what works for me may not for you and vice versa.
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They are called compositors, but they are not as good as X WMs IMO. I'm keeping an eye on them tho.
It still bothers me how toxic the hyprland devs behaved last year. Keeping an eye on that too 😉
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compositors, but they are not as good as X WMs
Interesting. I'm curious about what seems to be missing in your use case?
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Not OP, but modularity. An X11 WM is just a WM. You can choose compositor, bar, shortcut daemon, etc. With Wayland, a single implementation holds most of that, and more. If you need a specific feature from your display server, you are stuck on WMs that support it. This has forced me to use KDE for Wayland on my main workstation, and although it works well, it's not my prefered WM/workflow.
Alongside that, no clones of several X11 WMs exist. bspwm for example. Riverwm exists, but has major limitations, and the workflow isn't the same.
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I just wish Wayland weren't so weird about screensavers. It's it so much to ask to be able to lock my account when I have a screensaver activated?*
*This is what I'm told is the issue when it's brought up on KDE, i really don't have the wherewithal to actually dig into it. Could be talking out of my ass on this. Hope I am at least.
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KDE locks the screen out of the box, in fact looking through the GUI options I currently see no way to do a screensaver without locking. Though granted you don't need the compositor to do that anyways.
What's true is that not just any program can lock the screen under wayland, it has to be the compositor or a program the compositor grants the power to do so. That's so that "press alt-tab to login" type prompts can reliably sniff out keyloggers.
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Wayland can run fullscreen apps, and react to mouse movements just fine.
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I was building a kiosk for my home assistant with my Raspberry Pi. It was very complicated to set up a cage compositor, set up XWayland, setup Chromium Wayland flags, libinput rules, and the touchscreen mapping still doesn’t work… am I missing something here? For X11 everything just works right out of the box…
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… am I missing something here?
X11.
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Unless you have a real reason not to use X11, why not just use X11?
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Meh. Does it do anything KDE can't?
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Well, yes, but that's besides the point since they're totally different types of software. KDE can also do a shit ton of things that Hyprland can't, and isn't expected to ever try doing.
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Bloat-ware
If you want a lightweight compositor, then boy do i have just the right thing for you
It's 3x smaller than dwl! Perfect! (and can only run one program by the tty.... but no bloat!!!)
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Hyprland bloated? Huh?
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Compared to like iceWM maybe???
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Coming from i3, all these fancy animations are technically not needed.
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Ok, but I need manual control over how the tiles get arranged and shaped.
And I need to be able to stack windows.
Hyprland is pretty and declarative and has so many cool extensions that work really well and help to tie the experience together, but sway is more functional.
If hyprland offered the same ability to manually control the tile tree that sway offers, I'd use it.
For now I'm shoehorning the hyprland extensions like hyprwall and hyprlock onto sway.
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Wayland has at least one deal breaker for me. It doesn't remember where my windows were at logout when saving the session. I have six virtual desktops and have specific windows in certain desktops. Putting everything back where they belong after each login, no thank you. Until they add that I'll stick to X11.
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You actually think the X11 protocol remembers any window positions?
Neither Wayland nor X11 do. It has always been the window manager that does it and whether or not some specific window manager does this using either protocol is an implementation detail of the WM.
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I ended up switching to Wayland 3 or 4 years ago precisely because X11 was so shit about remembering my monitor positions. I had to run an xrandr script every time it booted or otherwise decided to shit itself. Using 2 GPUs didn't seem like it was thought about in the X11 design.
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Dual GPUs are no issue for x.org it's just that automatic configuration assumes a somewhat standard machine or it gets confused. Should I tell you about the days before automatic configuration, of hand-editing XF86Config to tell the X server that no, I didn't have a serial or ps/2 mouse but an USB one, and it had three buttons and a mouse wheel? Of seeing a list of monitor timings with the comment "CHOOSING THE WRONG THING MIGHT DESTROY YOUR HARDWARE"?
xrandr is actually quite recent (or I may be ancient), being able to do all that stuff at runtime was a godsend.
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You can configure this with window rules and autostart apps when Hyprland starts. That's not remembering what you had open the last time, but it will probably give you the experience you're looking for.
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Not a deal breaker for me, but I'd love this feature.
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Fully customised Hyprland use half as much ram as Plasma, but I still prefer Plasma because I can't get used to WM
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How much RAM does it use and how does this compare to running a web browser with a few open tabs?
Seriously, unless some memory leak makes a DE consume 10 gigs of RAM, nobody will notice because DE's RAM use is dwarfed by what end user applications use. 10 years ago I got a notebook for 600 Euro with a 16 GB RAM upgrade for an additional 100 Euro.
Performance differences are either rendering speed or perceived performance because of animation speed. With the exception of embedded hardware, RAM use for desktops is irrelevant since quite some time (and on such constrained hardware you can't properly browse the web anyway).
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im waiting on my distro probably or i could be doing just fine on experimental Wayland
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What's experimental Wayland?
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Probably some desktop that only now started to adopt Wayland in an experimental state because the maintainers thought that playing "wait and see" for way too many years was a great idea.
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Love it, all it's missing is a built-in monocle layout 🙏🙏
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Bloated?
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Wayland? Does it have colors, window position memory or hotkeys yet? Or are they still in the "we only sell an idea, you do all the work" vaporware phase?
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It's still vaporware but most compositors implement all features now.
As for colors, HDR works with AMD GPUs.
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Was the last time you read or heard anything about Wayland 15 years ago?
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Wayland seems to have problems showing colors properly. I was trying to fix this issue myself a couple weeks ago.
Colors in Xorg and Windows(gross) show properly, Wayland always looks dull and muted in comparison. Switching color profiles didn't change anything.
But hey, maybe there's a fix I haven't tried yet that works... I sure would hate to be proven wrong! No seriously, if someone has a fix for the dull colors I would likely start using Wayland again.
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Nov 2024 actually.
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People down vote but push-to-talk doesn't work on pure Wayland
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org.freedesktop.portal.GlobalShortcuts allows apps to request a global shortcut binding from the compositor. They can't just log all your keystrokes globally because that'd be a keylogger. Also there'd be no way to resolve conflicts between shortcuts.
If your app doesn't support that then blame the app, the interface has been out for a while, and compositors have supported it for a while.
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My Wayland is now in Technicolor, but it cost me a few shillings.
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246 comments