I've actually done this tho
I've actually done this tho
I've actually done this tho
Many cities at one time had trolley service which did local point to point connection. Then they were forced out because there was more profit in growing car dependency.
Capitalist government when public transport (a public service) is not making profits
Seems more like politicians were bribed lobbied to cut funding by car makers than they were counting coins and said we'd get more (as a government) if everyone just drove from home.
Fun fact: this is the premise of Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Yeah right, let me just walk to the supermarket XD
is back in 25 minutes with bag of grocceries
:o
"I don't want to carry bags all that way!"
Here. Take a backpack.
no im obese and entirely brainwashed that walking is detriemntal to my health or smth idfk
societal constraints hold back the minds of those who are lazy to change
the bicycle in question:
:D
1: I've taken the metro to get groceries loads of times
2: Trams
Trams are the shit
The best is when the grocery stores are so close that you don't need a car or a train. Japan does it right. You can always walk to at least one grocery store.
True enough for urban areas.
There's also a lot of more rural areas in Japan where the only thing in walking distance from a house is a bus stop, and it might be a bit of a long walk.
I'm sure there are more remote places, but I haven't been to those places.
I think the important part is that the Japan residents know it is possible once the town or city grows vs here in North America where people cannot fanthom the idea of not having a car (or in the US and Canada 1 car per person on the home).
I am privileged since I have been able to work from home recently, but it is so clear that you don’t need a car if non-work things were closer (better zoning and design roads for people instead of cars). Once you put 1k miles per year on your car instead of 10-20k and your quality of life is much higher due to no stress from having to commute it starts to radicalize you against into the dumb shit we do in the name of growth and profit (not violently but still makes you feel cheated out of a better life).
Greg is gonna shit on the floor when he'll learn that happens everywhere in Europe.
In socialist Europe, I walk to the groceries, comrade... I take 15min train ride from home to work in the city center... and I wait no longer than 5 minutes on train because that's its frequency.. but I have no car...
Don't a decent amount of European businesses even do delivery in back by train?
If you have to take a train to the grocery, that's a failure in local planning and a business opportunity. That said, not every store has everything and I, too, have taken a train to the grocery store for fancier/rarer things.
In some parts of rural Japan, we also have a grocery truck carrying staples and things you requested the last time they came from the actual store. This is a huge lifeline to some rural elderly people, but I don't see why it couldn't be more broadly applied in other areas.
We just have food delivery. You order and it arrives the next day, no delivery fee. Of course the sales usually aren't as good as in typical stores but the general prices are almost identical. They deliver in cute little electric vehicles.
I had two grocery stores in 5 minute walking distance. I had one store with more stuff, think also basic electronics, kitchenware, home appliances etc, in one station with the inner city train that was a 5 minute walk from my flat.
For years i did my groceries taking the train and i fail to see the problem. Just having to walk to the parking lot, get my car, drive to the store i can reach by train, then park there would have taken me twice as long even without traffic.
In inner cities cars are a liability for everyone including their driver.
Holy based. Very cool
If the frequency is good enough, this isn't a problem.
The best case scenario is as you mentionned : a grocery that you can walk easily, that has everything you need.
But having a light rail with high frequency makes it so that you can reach more area easily. And it also means that less dense part of the city still be serviced decently.
Trains also work to get other traffic off the road too. It solves congestion for everybody, not just you. That way when you do have to drive a car, there are fewer of them on the road.
Yes, it's called a tram. It's how I get to the shops, city centre, etc.
Yeah there's this thing called LIGHT RAIL, but even heavy rail, the NYC subway and BART are actually both heavy rail transit systems that one could absolutely casually take to the grocery store.
Their real issue is they think they have to travel 20+KM to the closest Walmart every time they want to buy something.
It's actually called zoning reform. Bring back neighborhood grocery stores you can walk to. Before I experienced it, I never thought about how convenient it is to walk less than 5 minutes to a grocery store almost every day and do little grocery trips instead of bit multi-bag struggles.
Bring back neighborhood grocery stores you can walk to.
This is actually probably more a federal antitrust/competition law thing than a local zoning thing. Otherwise it wouldn't have happened nationwide. I found this article to be pretty persuasive:
Food deserts are not an inevitable consequence of poverty or low population density, and they didn’t materialize around the country for no reason. Something happened. That something was a specific federal policy change in the 1980s. It was supposed to reward the biggest retail chains for their efficiency. Instead, it devastated poor and rural communities by pushing out grocery stores and inflating the cost of food. Food deserts will not go away until that mistake is reversed.
. . .
Congress responded in 1936 by passing the Robinson-Patman Act. The law essentially bans price discrimination, making it illegal for suppliers to offer preferential deals and for retailers to demand them. It does, however, allow businesses to pass along legitimate savings. If it truly costs less to sell a product by the truckload rather than by the case, for example, then suppliers can adjust their prices accordingly—just so long as every retailer who buys by the truckload gets the same discount.
. . .
During the decades when Robinson-Patman was enforced—part of the broader mid-century regime of vigorous antitrust—the grocery sector was highly competitive, with a wide range of stores vying for shoppers and a roughly equal balance of chains and independents. In 1954, the eight largest supermarket chains captured 25 percent of grocery sales. That statistic was virtually identical in 1982, although the specific companies on top had changed. As they had for decades, Americans in the early 1980s did more than half their grocery shopping at independent stores, including both single-location businesses and small, locally owned chains. Local grocers thrived alongside large, publicly traded companies such as Kroger and Safeway.
With discriminatory pricing outlawed, competition shifted onto other, healthier fronts. National chains scrambled to keep up with independents’ innovations, which included the first modern self-service supermarkets, and later, automatic doors, shopping carts, and loyalty programs. Meanwhile, independents worked to match the chains’ efficiency by forming wholesale cooperatives, which allowed them to buy goods in bulk and operate distribution systems on par with those of Kroger and A&P. A 1965 federal study that tracked grocery prices across multiple cities for a year found that large independent grocers were less than 1 percent more expensive than the big chains. The Robinson-Patman Act, in short, appears to have worked as intended throughout the mid-20th century.
Then it was abandoned. In the 1980s, convinced that tough antitrust enforcement was holding back American business, the Reagan administration set about dismantling it. The Robinson-Patman Act remained on the books, but the new regime saw it as an economically illiterate handout to inefficient small businesses. And so the government simply stopped enforcing it.
That move tipped the retail market in favor of the largest chains, who could once again wield their leverage over suppliers, just as A&P had done in the 1930s. Walmart was the first to fully grasp the implications of the new legal terrain. . . . Kroger, Safeway, and other supermarket chains followed suit. . . . Then, in the 1990s, they embarked on a merger spree. In just two years, Safeway acquired Vons and Dominick’s, while Fred Meyer absorbed Ralphs, Smith’s, and Quality Food Centers, before being swallowed by Kroger. The suspension of the Robinson-Patman Act had created an imperative to scale up.
A massive die-off of independent retailers followed. Squeezed by the big chains, suppliers were forced to offset their losses by raising prices for smaller retailers, creating a “waterbed effect” that amplified the disparity. Price discrimination spread beyond groceries, hobbling bookstores, pharmacies, and many other local businesses. From 1982 to 2017, the market share of independent retailers shrank from 53 percent to 22 percent.
The whole thing is worth reading.
It's definitely both.
If you can't have smaller grocery stores in neighborhoods due to zoning laws, what will be left is bigger stores which are going to be generally operated by large corporations.
Genuinely high quality post.
And yet another Reagan roast.
Would probably help with remembering reusable bags too. Instead of driving there and being like 'oh no!' you're walking, and would realize you're not carrying them with you.
In the US you'd be arrested for unlawful walking in a car only area, or something.
I get her point but trams!!!
I think she should see a city with trams and see how useful it is when implemented properly :)))
Woke agenda:
Legs, Gondolas, Buses, Trams
why would I take a train when the store is 3 minutes walking diatance
That's literally communism and also the cause of everything wrong with the economy, that's why!
My township is going through this
Vandalism, threats, people screaming in public, and so on; all afraid that the new area being built having stores within walking distance is a government conspiracy to restrict people’s ability to leave
…all the existing parts of town have grocers and shops within walking distance
Driving is for free people, walking is for slaves! /s
What if trains weren't slow? 🤔
Wdym? In what clown world are trains slow?
They are slower than driving except in peak traffic. Caltrain san Francisco to san Jose is about 2x driving time, and on neither end does the train get you into real downtown. San Jose is close but still a 15 minute walk before you get to anything interesting. Francisco is in a relatively shady area near a stadium, also 15 mins from market.
If you don't have to park, getting to the airport by transit involves switching from Caltrain to BART at a random suburb so as an example San Jose to SFO is 30 mins by car, 1:30 by train. Note the tracks for the Caltrain and Bart are parallel here.
Me watching the cars crawling on the highway at 120 km/h when I zip by at 330 km/h in my comfortable TGV seat, playing on my Steam Deck.
"boss battle"
So fucking cringe.
Taking a train to the grocery store only seems absurd to people who have never experienced a really efficient rail system.
You get what you pay for.
When the train tracks are south of the major highway, and the grocery store is north of the major highway, that doesn't seem very safe in my area. What do?
That's just idiotic traffic design. I would tell you a solution but I don't have one. You either make something happen politically or move. Shitty infrastructure is the worst.
The tracks were originally designed for industrial use only, major industries south of the tracks. Now they're planning to upgrade them to passenger tracks for Amtrak...
That doesn't sound like a good or safe idea to me. Most anywhere any everyday passenger would want to visit, save for the beaches, is north of the tracks.
You could take a train to the shop, though. If the infrastructure is built right.
Only if you live in a city
My parents, who live in a town, can just walk to buy their groceries instead.
Good for them, but I know a dozen towns that are big enough you can't, or the only store wouldn't be in realistic walking distance for at least half the residents.
And even those that can, you have to either be in good health. So it isn't like your parents (or anyone's) will always be able to walk to the grocery.
I do this with light rail. Takes 6 minutes with slow walking included. It's pleasant.
Especially in the winter. I live in Norway, so if I use a car I wait for the engine to warm up before driving. (It's better for the engine.) This and removal of ice and snow easily takes more than 6 minutes. I'm really glad I don't have a car.
Most of the world is not like Norway and having a car is a necessity not a desire
I completely understand that owning a car can be necessary for someone, but since I'm lucky enough to have access to good public transit a car just doesn't make any sense for me.
It's MANY times as expensive, the car requires maintenance/repair and driving requires me to be focused and well rested.
Even with zero sleep, a headache, icy roads, a beer in my stomach and lots of stress, I can safely get where I need to go and I don't even have to think about parking when I get there. I can even listen to music or a podcast on really low volume with closed eyes. I hope that more people get access to good public transit.
For a society in the long run public transit is also cheaper per passenger than cars. The difference in cost efficiency grows the more densely populated an area is. Statistically most people on Lemmy live in a more densely populated area than me, so you can probably demand this from your government. Y'all would end up saving money.
Instant Teleportation when?
walking is an option
If we ever figure out teleportation, it will be expensive. Of course, there's a free tier where you get teleported into a void where you will have to watch ads for 20 minutes before you get sent to your destination. Complete with regular reminders that you can simply upgrade your plan to get out of teleportation purgatory immediately.
You likely wouldn't actually want that, as the way it works on star trek at least is to effectively kill you (by recording all your molecules etc then ripping you apart), move your molecules to the new place and then reassemble you.
There's no real way to do 'instant' teleportation like you suggest either as it most likely breaks the laws of physics, things have to move to get places, best you could probably do is very fast teleportation.
Laughs in Japanese
This hillbilly has never been to NYC
You walk to the fucking grocery store. I know it sounds wild but we have legs so we can use it.
That doesn't work if the grocery store is too far to walk or for larger grocery hauls (which often go hand in hand - the further away, the fewer trips you'll want to make). I've been told that some places just genuinely don't have a grocer within 20min walking distance, because some construction planning apparently prefers huge zones of housing without any kind of commercial usage allowed - no baker, no grocer, no hairstylist, no doctor - making it effectively impossible to have any of those amenities in range.
Obviously, that is a planning issue and ought to be fixed. You'll have to contend with NIMBYs, but you'd have to do that with any changes anyway. Alternatively or additionally, you could install a usable network of bus lines and trams (though they shouldn't be run for profit, so it'll be a tough sell too).
There is also the issue of accessibility, but I think that would be trivial to solve as a side effect: If the streets are less crowded with cars, it's easier to offer special accommodation for people with limited mobility or anxiety issues.
Bikes are faster than walking and you can attach a trailer. I know a lot of people do that in denmark. Suddenly your cargo capacity is larger than a lot of cars, of course not for weight. As for people with mobility issues, where i live they have a dedicated branch of the public transit for them. On train you can go with wheelchair and if you need extra help in the city they can send you someone with minibuss to help you. Same if youre not in a wheelchair but limited because of your age. Of course these arent cheap to solve but putting out the la fires that were caused by global warming that was in part caused by cars isnt cheap either.
This is the most offensive and derogatory form of ableism. I'm reporting this and I'm tagging you as "Person who hates the disabled" and I am not going to spend even a moment thinking about how mass transit or pedestrian pathways might benefit an individual with mobility issues.
See your comment brings up the big issue I have with the bicycle crowd. I literally cannot ride a bike due to disability , so ride transit right? If my city had a good and reliable transit system i fucking would! But it doesn’t, and it never fucking will. So yes I will give up the car and take transit every day, when pigs fly and my city has a good transit system.
Your way of thinking relies on the belief that transit is adequate in most places, and it sure as hell is not
Please, add /s. I almost believed you.
Lemme strap my wife and kids to my back while I cycle them all to their destinations then head off to work 50km away in the dead of winter!
Bicycle people have no brain, they think everyone lives in California or some shit
Elon's commenter: "Trains!"
Elon defender: "But what about groceries?"
The comment you replied to: "Bikes!"
You, for some unknowable reason: "But what if I need to travel 50km to work, see bike people have no brain"
You take a train for that, obviously! You just take bike for anything shorter than 2 - 5km, maybe E-bike if you need/want it, Bus and Metro lines should get you anywhere in your city. And before you ask, if all stations are too far to walk, you bike there. If all of these don't work for you, then you can drive a car on clear roads, because everyone who doesn't need to drive doesn't.
"But there are no good bicycle paths/Light rail lines/public transit stations where I live!" Yes, what I said is unrealistic to do in most cities. But we can work towards it, and that starts by getting the people that can use bikes on bike paths, and the people that can take the train on train lines.
WE ONCE HAD STREETCARS LOOK WHAT THEY TOOK FROM US
The Ford Motor Company decided that streetcars weren't a proper mean of transportation, both for the US people and for the Ford Motor Company shareholders.
People really need to commute for groceries? Like, I have the store 1 block away. Americans don't know they can walk?
Most Americans leave too far away from any supermarket, even if there were roads that could take you there, either by walking or cycling.
I say it's a business opportunity, why don't Americans just open a small general store in their residential areas? Not everything need to come from a supermarket, here we have people that literally sell you vegetables in a rented garage.
Seems like the only acceptable usage of garages for you people are tech startups and maybe teenager bands lol.
I hope the answer is not "due to some obtuse regulation, residential areas can't have business operating in any shape or form, unless is a tech startup or an ice cream truck".
The fact people want to get in a car in order to get groceries is beyond me. I'm in Australia, where car brain is also very prevalent, but with many urban places good for walking and PT.
I live close to the shops, and go there multiple times a week because it's literally right there. Driving and parking? Nah, I'm good.
I live in Houston. We have a grocery store in town that has a big apartment block over the top of it. A friend lives there and he jokes that he's taking the elevator to the grocery store any time I complain about traffic or parking.
Unfortunately, living in a posh apartment that's conveniently placed over a nice grocery store means the price of rent is astronomical. So he needs to work as a highly paid attorney in the oil industry to afford to live in a place where he doesn't need to use a car to get groceries.
Well good on him at least for copping the first adopters price haha, hopefully you can put some stuff back where the city bulldozed to put carparks one day 😅 one apartment at time
The ironic (Or perhaps just interesting) thing is that apartments are supposed to be cheaper living because you don't have a front or back yard.
It's vaguely that here, if location is the same apartment is usually cheaper than a free standing house, but apartments are usually better located near public transport and amenities (the whole point), so there's a slight premium for that.
The American description of apartments almost always coming along in the phrase "luxury condos" is perplexing (other than NYC, it seems)
In fairness, in Melbourne we also do not build many apartments. Far fewer than we should, mostly due to regulations and laws not being airtight around owners corporations, aka body corp, and conflicts of interest where the developer awards a building management contract before selling all the apartments... So people are a bit hesitant to sign up for that and apartment living is still a pretty foreign concept to most
Introducing:the tramway!
Wait until they hear about the Bus. But probably is for the best they don't, their head would explode at the thought
Bro, I can walk 1 mile to the grocery store and 1 mile back. That's roughly an hour including shopping. I have a disability on my right foot so I'm slow moving.
I can walk 1/2 a mile to the bus stop and spend another 20-30 min to the store, so around 2 or more hours.
I can drive there in 5 minutes.
Cars are not the solution and are terrible for the environment but many people don't have other options
something a lot of people miss is, that some people have to shop for more than 3 or 4 people, when I grew up we were 5 plus a somewhat big dog, you can't really do weekly shopping without some kind of help under these circumstances
I use public transport to get everywhere I can, which is pretty easy where I live, but having 4 full shopping bags on a tram sounds like a horrible experience
People in countries and cities with good public transport don’t really do “weekly”. They stop in to the local market on the way home daily or every other day. There’s literally an express type grocery store every block or three, and a full serve store probably 10-15 minutes walk.
I spend a lot of time overseas for work, and getting groceries is without a car is zero trouble.
It tends to be much easier in walkable/well designed areas because you have a much higher density of grocery stores.
I have about 8 within a 2-10 minute walk. So I don't really do a big weekly shop, but rather a couple small ones throughout the week.
So yeah, depends hugely on how human-friendly the area is
Just shop daily instead of weekly. A grocery store just opened three blocks from me so I just walk down with a single canvas bag and grab what I need for the next day or two. For the dog, we walk down to the pet store together to grab his food and a treat or toy for him.
Obviously not possible in many suburbs, but when you live in a walkable area it works great.
I hope I never end up in an American suburb.
Shopping daily sounds terribly inefficient. I don't even want to be at the store once per week, much less every single day.
Have you heard of grocery caddy? It has wheels and can carry more groceries than one person can lift with their own hands.
The heaviest thing I often see people load in their car is a 6-pack of water or soda bottles. It's better for health and just simpler to drink tap water. Drinking from a plastic bottle means drinking microplastics. And I don't need to explain why water is better than sodas.
Sure. But one car ride a week to fulfill the daily needs of six living beeings doesn't cause congestion. What has this to do with anything?
If you live in more urban areas, you even don't need your own car for that.
These “take a train” crowd think that everyone in every city and every town has a subway system or even a functional bus system. It’s like the bicycle people who insist that I don’t need a car, I can just strap my kids to my back in winter and drop them off at school before cycling to work and stopping for errands and groceries on the way home! So easy! /s
If I didn’t NEED a car I wouldn’t drive one, and that applies to most people. But for some reason everyone on here is a 20something city kid with easy access to public transit