What's the deal with male loneliness?
What's the deal with male loneliness?
Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don't really know how to ask this question so I hope I'm making sense
There's a few factors working together to cause it. There's really two main ones: pressure to have sex and romantic connection, and an inability to be able to make those connections.
There's tons and tons of pressure out there about being in a relationship and having sex. In modern day, a good example is Andrew Tate and the like, directly linking your self worth to having sex. Back when I was a male teenager during the days of rage comics and advice animals, it was memes about the friend zone. The core idea is the same, being alone is something to be ashamed and upset about. Being rejected is something that reflects badly upon you as a person. Young men are constantly being bombarded with messaging about how being a man revolves around sex and romance, and lacking these things makes you less of a man. In addition, so much media portrays sex both as this amazing thing on a pedestal and as something that's not just commonplace but as something that everyone's expected to be doing.
So young men are believing that everyone except them are all in relationships and/or fucking all the time, and believing that them not doing those things makes worth less as a human being.
The other problem is actually making romantic or otherwise meaningful connections. So much more socializing is online these days, and there are a lot fewer women on the internet than men. It's difficult to make organic connections with single women online, as random social media is by far mostly male and more direct closer friend groups tend to be made of single men and people in relationships (this is very arbitrary and circumstancial, it's just what I've noticed). So, your odds of finding a single and compatible friend of a friend of a friend online aren't great, and dating apps are complete trash for pretty much anything other than gay hookups. So, there's not really a way for many young men to find romantic partners. Straight up hookups are easier, especially if your standards aren't too high, but it's an area a lot of young men aren't socially comfortable with because it's not something they've done a lot of, which makes everything much harder.
In the end, if there wasn't so much pressure to be dating and having sex, then the difficulty of doing so in the modern day wouldn't matter so much.
Personally, I've basically only had sex with men, because it's so much more straightforward and the dating pool isn't crazy lopsided. Though that's at an end now too, because I've transitioned too much to be appealing to gay men anymore and haven't transitioned nearly enough to be appealing to straight men or gay women.
I do think the loneliness epidemic affects men more than women, and would argue it's sexism harming men. On average, women are more likely to reach out, talk to people and family will check in on them if they are alone. Like, my husband (who is more outgoing than me and better at keeping up with friends) will call his mom or go up to see her, but leaves his dad alone unless he literally asks for something. Because men are taught it's shameful to not be self sufficient, but women are taught to look for help if we need it.
Obviously this is not a straight gender split but on average it still plays out that way.
Toxic gender norms hurt everyone.
I think this is exacerbated by certain people online who want to capitalize on the issue and scapegoat others (see the manosphere and how they talk about feminism) instead of actually addressing the problem
Edit: a little plug for https://lemmy.ca/c/mensliberation
I don't even think it's an exclusively male thing. It's just getting harder and harder to meet people and mingle. Men are just feeling it harder and sooner.
It's harder to meet people now. I think part of it is:
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That people used to be bored. You would make entertainment where you could find it, and two bored people can rapidly get entertained. Now you have a phone that makes you not bored, and de-incentivizes face to face interaction.
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There used to be more places where people interacted. Masons, elk lodge, unions, they would often serve alcohol at events, for dirt cheap. They were known as third places, somewhere other than work and home. One thing I hear from a lot of smokers is that the smoking areas are where people hang out to talk, and they do. It's where conversations happen at a club. It gives you something to do when you're not talking, a reason to stand somewhere close to people, and a perfect excuse to jump into a conversation. It's kinda infuriating that it also shaves two minutes off your life -_-.
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People have less time. Younger generations are working multiple jobs, gigs with unpredictable hours, often times having commutes of an hour which turns a 9 to 5 into an 8 to 6, and spending all their vacation hours on the shit that has to be done on a weekday like the DMV or the like. How are you supposed to make a friend when schedules differ so much that a spreadsheet is required to make it work?
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Btw, It's a lot more pronounced here on the internet. Since it's a filter bubble. If you dive into the real world, you'll find a lot of males also have healthy lives, a lot of hobbies, they're going out with friends, playing football once a week etc. I mean it's certainly there, and a big issue in society. All I want to say is, don't just look at some social media and draw conclusions from that. The perspective here is heavily skewed and making it look more desperate than it is.
The topic is multifacedted and I cant pretend to understand it fully, but to speak of some aspects as I understand them
There is a large gap between societal and cultural expectations of men, and the financial and realities for everone at the moment.
One part of societal expectations of men is that they expected to be independent, capable of getting and holding a job that pays well enough to buy a car, own a house, etc. The current reality is that many men are in debt after a university degree, have a hard time finding a job because 99% of applications get rejected outright, and get paid significantly less accounting for inflation and costs compared to their predecessors. It is impossible for the average person to afford a house on the typical wages these days without already having a significant other or by pooling resources. This has led to a large number of people who live at home and have less money to spend on things like going out.
I say this as someone who is fairly well off given my job and field, I get paid ~2x what some of my friends do and I could not afford a house within a 2hr drive of my workplace. I live at home with my parents and it fucking sucks.
Another aspect of bad cultural expectations is that men are expected to be cold unfeeling lone wolf types, and the idea that any sort of male bonding is "gay" which has caused people to spend less time doing things with friends. Men end up with smaller social circles and with less friends. With increasing costs and long working hours, they end up with little time to actually hang out together.
An additional aspect of the failure of cultural expectations to adjust the need to place blame. Blame has fallen on the individual man for being, among other things, lazy good for nothings, who are weak, ugly, etc.
If we look at the US, they have been abandoned by the left, both by the democrats (e.g. economy is fine, must be your fault), by the feminists (told to be vulnerable but called weak for being vulnerable, shunned at every instance because "sounds like a you problem" and "figure it out yourself") and by their own parents who had an easier time.
This is part of why the manosphere became so popular. Men have been told for so long that they were the problem, many of them still just boys, whereas right wing pundits like jordan peterson, andrew tate, joe rogan, etc gave them targets to redirect blame. An excuse for "actually, its not my fault I cant find a date, its the woman's fault," etc. Note that this is not my personal belief. It also gives them a sense of community and people talk to that actually listen and make them feel heard and justified in their struggles.
The blame game has caused us to ignore several important systematic factors. The rise of individualism, stagnant wages relative to inflation and costs, and growing wealth inequality, as well as the erosion of community and mens safety nets are all major factors which have decreased mens mental health and increased male loneliness.
Male loneliness is likely partially due to the same reason we are all here; this online outlet for social endorphins is why you were not building up a deficit over the last week and felt the motivation to finally call that person you were thinking about this whole time. That person was a passing thought, and the endorphins hit you might have received is ultimately less than you got from the austere but consistent dose you get from social engagement online.
The only problem is that you are not creating a meaningful personal social network in real life. When you really need such a network in practice, you face the reality of no one to turn to, or less depth and meaning to such connections. Real people are also complex and you must face the reality that no one fits your echo chamber bubble like a place like this. If you act like a down vote or stupid hot take comes across here to people in the real world... you find yourself back here with less options in the future.
Traditional masculinity dictates that men don’t share their feelings (with the exception of anger and aggression because that’s not a feeling that’s just being manly). Sadness, despair, loneliness, depression all will be commonly bottled up and left untreated which leads to deep-seated feelings of isolation. The cure has to be a change in social norms, including decoupling the ideas of being socially vulnerable with being feminine.
This is a gross generalization of the issue but it definitely describes my experience with it.
Patriarchy harms and isolates men first so that they become the monsters that women fear.
The same way women are expected to look and act a certain way, so is for men, with different criteria.
Not by people per se, but by a sort of cultural subconscious, like a chaos creature from warhammer it exists because people believe in it, not necessarily because they agree with it. Everyone fears it, so most comply.
That's why it is so important to destroy the social gender binary, the idea that we all neatly fit in well defined labels that apply to our body and mind. It's just complete bullshit and internalizing it is one of the many ways this system traps us in its oppression
if men display feelings, they’re seen as bitches by men, and weak by women (exceptions exist, but generally speaking).
basically, a piece of toxic masculinity….
men are only allowed to display emotions of anger or mild happiness.
i think this is a big reason why sports are so popular… it’s more about camaraderie than anything else.
also why they like to get drunk and say “i love you man” and all that mushy stuff.in a nutshell: because they’re taught to be that way.
Here’s a theory. I’m sure it has lots of holes in it.
Male loneliness has always been a thing. In cultures where it isn’t/wasn’t, there was a strong family relationship and older men modelling how to relate to others.
To hide from loneliness, men were able to join clubs, hang out at pubs, volunteer, or bury themselves in work.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
What’s changed is that it is now socially OK to talk about loneliness (at least in online forums like this), so more people are aware it’s an issue.
It always felt like between the ages of 12 - 18 (basically while you were in middle-/highschool) you need to get some sort of "seal of approval" from the other sex as a prove that you are relationship material. If you didn't get that you'll always be seen as somebody to stay away from.
I've heard a lot of times that those young relationships are completely inconsequential, but I think it's those lack of consequences that serve best as a social teaching tool on how to recognize and have an actual meaningful relationship when you're older.
And I feel like this experience is exactly what a lot of men and women are struggling to get. They have trouble finding partners and if they do they are not good partners themselves. Which is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, you are deemed bad relationship material so you'll become bad relationship material.
I recognized this about myself. At my age the only people left are either young divorcees, people with small children or people that are like me - single for a good reason. There will be expectations towards me that I'm neither aware of nor will probably be able to fulfill. Dating well below my age range is neither something I can pull off nor something that I am comfortable with. So I'm forever stuck in this weird limbo of wanting a relationship but knowing that whoever will be my first partner will probably not have a great time with me.
I think this is also the root of a lot of toxic behavior. People turn to sources of knowledge to at least get some idea about what an relationship is about. But all they find is the Cosmopolitans and the Andrew Tate's who prey upon peoples' loneliness and desperation for profit. I understand that nobody wants to be a teacher, I understand that nobody wants to throw away years of their life so that the next person will maybe have a better time with your partner.
Ali Wong had a good joke about this in her special with something along the lines off not wanting a divorce because then she'd have to teach the next guy how to please her. Taylor Tomilison also had one about wanting to call her ex during sex just so he could explain to the next guy how he did it for her. I know those are just jokes, but it think there is a bit of truth in them.
Male loneliness has probably always been a thing. Lonely men were expected to work difficult jobs, or fight in wars for kings, or just kill themselves.
Some women would have experienced similar issues, along with probably greater rates of sexual abuse, etc.
I think there have always been quite a few people with shit lives throughout history; it's just that society doesn't want to acknowledge these people. People who are doing fine in life want to pretend that life is fair, when actually it isn't.
See Bowling Alone.
Personally (and from a US shut-in perspective!) I'd take it further: the social contract is broken. When society has been molded to almost exclusively generate money, the closest to winning there is when you're broke is trying to spend the least amount of money possible which surely will be solitaire confinement.
I don't think there's any easy fix, moving to a better area is an individual thing yet is also the core issue when it comes to transportation+rent+cost-of-living.
Gender division and masculinity is trained into us from the second our genitals are identified be it sonogram or at birth. From the colors, toys, media, to early childhood social pressures were pushed into one of two molds. If a boy interacts with a girl it's labelled as boyfriend girlfriend even if there's no romantic intent (because why would children have that?). But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there's a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you're able to question it you're so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it's a threat to people who haven't had to question it.
When you're emotionally isolated from yourself, and surrounded by others who are also emotionally isolated, you're not motivated to be around them since they won't fulfill your needs. Then, you realize you're also not comfortable enough to bridge the divide to people who are in touch with their own emotions. So all this hard work and you're only a few steps down the path to connection. Usually with little sense of where to go from there.
When you finally get to the point of diving in and expressing emotionally outward, it's easy to get wrapped with anxiety. You expect others to push you away, not because they will, most people respond well, but because you're even less oriented and more vulnerable than ever. Though i would argue less fragile.
Lots of other posts discussing things like whether other people in the age group are socially available, and lack of third spaces.
For decades it has been ingrained in men that they are to be held to a very specific standard. Men don’t cry, men are strong, men have to take care of everyone else, stop your whining, I’ll give you something to cry about, be the alpha male, that’s “gay”, strength, weakness, and so on.
My father, and grandfather, both grew up with a code of silence. Feelings weren’t talked about, but relayed through their wives; except anger. That was given directly through corporal punishment (hand or belt).
I was always “emotional” growing up. I cried “like a baby” over “nothing”. No one ever came to check on me, or console me, during any of my “fits”. In fact, there were times I was ridiculed for it (sometimes by family members).
When I was 19 my grandmother died. I was really close with her; she was the only one who ever came to my aid and defended me. It tore me up so bad I could barely talk without breaking down. I was told multiple times that I shouldn’t be so upset, and that I was overreacting (by my family). Everything came to a head when all at once my cousins, aunts, uncles, and even brother yelled at me because I was being selfish and unreasonable, and insensitive to my grandfather because “he just lost his wife”.
Oh, and apologies are for “pussies”.
Anyway, it’s not really about me. I wanted to paint a picture for you as to why I’m lonely. Do with that what you will.
Toxic masculinity makes men feel like they need to be strong independent and suffer silently.
As for the other side of the coin, i would guess the Women Are Wonderful Effect.
This is a video about it, which I think takes a very sobering approach to it. Her humor tends to be very dark, but if you look at the comment section, she seems to be hitting it head on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQv8VuLpKN4
Now for solutions, I don't know anyone who talks about it beyond the basics of "listen to men" and "give them a healthier and less judgy space to develop social skills". But that's probably because this is such a complex issue and there seems to be no simple solution.
There are multiple reasons for this. First of all due to the fact that a lot of infrastructure is based around cars society actively looses places for people to meet and hang out(I think this effect even has a name, but I'm not sure). Lack of places to interact with other people, and therefore lack of social interactions, causes a rise in loneliness. Then theres the problem with how men are supposed to act. We get told, that we shouldn't "ask out" women in every day life, since its now considered creepy. For me this causes a certain type of being not sure where and when it is OK to ask someone out leading to me not doing it since I don't want to get labeled as a creep. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to blame women for the male loneliness epidemic and there devinetively are a lot of men beeig creeps and asking someone out in absolutely the wrong situations, but this is something that needs to be said to understand the male loneliness epidemic. This also causes dating to take place online. Now the problem is, that online dating fucking sucks. Dating apps are useless, as long as you don't want to sell your kidney to them, since they want you to keep using it. If dating apps were somewhat usefull they'd be out pf buisness quite fast.
One thing that helps loneliness is communities, especially those that meet IRL. I believe there has been a significant decline in club membership and social groups in the past decades. I think there are several factors behind this, including financial stress (and the resulting scarcity of free time).
One action that people can take is to join communities and participate in them! Even just online groups with similar interests if not IRL groups can help to make friends and feel connected. HTH
I’ve thought about this a lot myself. I’m 12-15 friends/acquaintances down due to them deciding to step out of life in their twenties or thirties. On paper none of them seemed to be in too bad a way and yet…
There’s obviously the problem that having and discussing emotions is for girls and gays only (/s), but there must be more to it than that.
I think there’s an expectation (where I live) that men should be strong and stoic at all times - but, honestly, many of us are fragile little flowers, some of the time, but it’s seen (erroneously) as weakness.
In my experience most men are happy to talk about: “big screen tv’s, blunts, 40’s and bitches” to NSFW quote
but they can’t open up about emotions and feelings.
I think that many of the approaches that tried to explain it are mostly dangerous.
Like blaming it on gender norms, and toxic masculinity, the most common answer. Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.
I think a more neutral approach is needed to explain it. Instead of trying to take some explanation that fits your political views and then try to push it as a solution to the problem, the problem should be investigated by itself, and once an explanation is reached accept it even if it does not fit your political mindset.
Part of capitalism is a need for high consumer culture. I grew up in a Latin American culture, and there are American sub cultures that also work similarly, there's no nuclear family. Of course your relationship with your parents and siblings are very strong and important, but you have no problem living with grandma, or having your extended family live all very close together, my family were all in the same apartment complex in an immigrant neighborhood. I grew up with my cousins, like every day, if we didn't want to play outside we'd go to different houses to see what everyone was watching on TV, we shuffle around with the different game consoles at different houses, food was entirely communal. After I got married to a typical American partner and started raising our kids together I was very shocked to find out that some food in the house is apparently owned by someone. And eating that food is a serious offense. Anyway, people used to live very close if not in a large family home with extended families. Why was this bad for capitalism? One large house owner by an entire family of 12-22 people securely, in which no one needs to buy their own home. We're a few cars and carpooling is a simple task, where food is distributed to the hungry without a lot of steps between grocer and table, I was wearing clothes my uncle wore when I was an adult. When everyone dresses in a similar manner and suits and work close lasted generations, a pair of taken care of shoes or boots that just get repaired every few decades, are you starting to see the problem? That NOT good for capitalism. When the concept of the nuclear family took hold there was a huge boom in home conduction, hardware stores, department stores, companies made fortunes off baby boomers, all this individualized products, razors, deodorant, soap, every stage in life requires a new variety of soap, 10 kinds of cereal to pick from, new shoes every 6mo.
Humans are Apes. Every other ape on the planet lives in large troops that mutually aid eachother and who is boss, and who is contending to take over, who has first pick of food and women, it's based on what? Being hella aggro? Being bigger, stronger, what? Usually it comes down to who has the best social skills, who ever bonds with the most members of the troop, because when a fight ensures, it's not about who is smart, cunning, or strong, it's about how many apes jump in on your side. We are DEEPLY social animals. The nuclear family isolated men the most. Toxic masculinity harms men on a HUGE scale. Quietly, emotionless, provide a secure home, two or more cars, and income to spare to the family you alone protect. It's pretty lonely. Many men don't even have friendships, one of the worst aspects of toxic masculinity is that it's a sign of weakness to be kind, caring, and nurturing. You know. Those aspect of social life that make every other species of ape successful. So where do men locked out of this already broken system go? They look for groups that will accept them, invite them out, bond with them socially. And who's funding all these far right groups that do this with millions of dollars? Russia. Far right billionaires and millionaires who don't want these men talking about WHY they are locked out of the system. If you look around you can also notice a lot of small service business aren't run by white people. You see Hispanic, Asian, east Indian people, who ''are all packed into that house like sardines'' with a staff of related people doing the work. Consumer culture is a dead end. The Nuclear family is a dead end.
Eventually we will break down and then who survives. The armed and dangerous? Or a farmer, rancher, producer of products, doer of services, with strong social ties and distributes food, product, service, with simple bartering making sure everyone's still alive.
Sex researchers Baumeister and Tice wrote about sexual economics.
"A heterosexual community can be analyzed as a marketplace in which men seek to acquire sex from women by offering other resources in exchange."
From an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense that women wouldn't want a partner that can't provide security for the couple when the woman would be vulnerable if pregnant/nursing.
Young men in particular have fewer resources of value to offer than at any time in most people's lives. To that point, it's not like young women are dating any better, so even if they are willing to be the sole provider, most are unable to do so.
With the traditional partnership which historically provided companionship out of the question, men are left yearning for female companionship.
Another point the researchers make, is that men will always yearn, while women have a generally easier time abstaining until conditions are right.
I think it's because people are overworked. No time for love, no time for friendship, sometimes not even enough time to take care of yourself properly.
Too much duplicitousness out there
Lack of socializing. We’ve lost the third place in modern society. It’s work and home and nothing else. Lots of people work from home now, which is great, but only if you have a third place. You have to meet people in the real world and find a way to connect with them.
People laugh, but churches are a good way to do that. Check one out, sit in the back, and watch the people who show up- the demographics, make sure the congregation is diverse, etc. If you see a same-sex couple walk in and sit down like they’ve done it a hundred times, you don’t have to worry about all the hate bullshit.
Church is a great way to meet people in a place where everyone feels safe and accepted. They are extremely welcoming to newcomers. There are always activities and groups to join. Churches have been the third place for literally centuries.
Even if you have irreconcilable philosophical differences, check out a Unitarian church.
Asking the big questions over here. You'll be rich if you find the answer.
Weak little shits trying to stoicism but being weak little shifts about it.
Mostly /s obviously but there is a kernel of truth in the idea that men are following these philosophical black jokes they aren't not wrll prepared to e gage with, and they are struggling with it.
I know Jordan Peterson has a lot of followers. He says it's the women's fault men are lonely. He says men are their victim, pictures women as evil while men should be on top. This creates an even bigger isolation and creates sex offenders.
In Japan and South Korea there are many men who are isolated because of videogames and it's online culture. They have a relationship with a Nintendo character of AI on their phone (no joke).
Because a lot of lonely men are on the internet, it's not a correct representation of the real world. Doesn't change the fact there are many non the less.
Just because there are many different cultures accessable for anyone through the internet, it's easier to isolate yourself in such a culture. Whether it's on reddit, 4chan, through games, forums or other social media groups. But it keeps you off the streets, away from real socializing, learning to behave, how to talk to a girl, find a hobby which isn't on your computer, meet real friends.
When you have a significant change in the population dynamic, it takes a significant time for the population not (really) effecting this change to adjust.
From my perspective as an old bloke, Women now treat relationships as transactional or have standards that are impossible (for that individual) to achieve; men are reacting in the only way available. There are obviously a number of reasons for the changing in dynamic and I'm not making that statement to judge or analyse; mass change requires motivation. The motivation presented itself.
To my mind society is in the same incredible flux as when the female pill became a real and accessible/allowable thing fifty years ago. Gillick competence case law didn't happen in the UK until 1985; that's awfully late to protect young women.
The risks to a man of a long-term relationship significantly outweigh the potential rewards. Being aware of the overwhelming risks and deciding not to engage doesn't stop one being lonely.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to end up all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone." - Robin Williams
Social media changed dating, and made it ok for both women and men to treat eachother as commodities, resources, status symbols.
This bleeds over in real life, where women don't need/want to have relationships with men anymore (in real life) in the west (outside of their love relationship). They already get all the attention they need from hundreds of men on social media telling them they are beautiful.
A lot of western guys go for girls in Indonesia or Thailand these days, because they are kind and beautiful. Of course the girls see the opportunity to be with a guy from the west who has money. But it seems to work out. Both genders are often happy in those relationships, both get what they value from it.
There is a lot of comments faulting society. But the individuals need to take personal accountability. Choosing to live online is what I see as the crux of this issue. This comes from personal experience of living online and being loney and miserable untill i started getting out and meeting people. This lonelyness "epedemic" is people not managing their screen time.
There's been a concerted effort over the last several decades to push a men vs women dynamic online, and most men don't buy into it, so it's really just been people shitting all over men without consequence. Just look at the other answers here focusing exclusively on how men can be blamed (edit: many better replies have been posted since I made this comment).
Quite likely pushed excessively by foreign propaganda.
Men have been taught not to approach women in public unless it's online in a dating app. Women have always been taught not to approach men.
So no one is having relationships except for a very small portion of people who are disproportionately physically attractive.
Pair that with the hypergamy that women are doing where they only chase men out of their league now for the most part and it makes things that used to be normal and taken for granted like getting married and having a family exceptional jewels that are hard to come by.
Yes because only males can be lonely.
There's a multitude of reasons, my personal favourite is that men are highly aggressive sexual creatures and the stigma against homosexuality is hindering our ability to form fulfilling relationships with our male peers.
Just crack open a history book, looks like a lot of the masculine activities came with a considerable amount of gay sex. Like, it seems like the main draw of joining an army to go to war is that you can fuck a bunch of dudes the whole time you're away on campaign.
If people are lonely it's because they cause it themselves.
I'm in an activity group and it's mostly the women of the group who are organizing the events. The men sign up to attend. The women are the ones who make plans and the men just go along.
Why don't the men take initiative?
Even playing a board game, the guys just sit there playing a game. The women are the ones who introduce themselves, ask other people their names, what they do for a living, engage in conversation. This is all stuff men could be doing themselves but choose not to.
Some men isolate themselves using video games and didn't join any social groups then complain that they are lonely. It's like complaining you're hungry when the food is right in front of you but you just won't eat it -- you're expecting someone else to literally feed you.