1mo ago

Let's make Windows 10 the last version ever used!

Sat. 28 Dec. 11h Stage YELL #KDEEco 's Call To Action against e-waste driven by #Windows10.

https://events.ccc.de/congress/2024/hub/en/event/opt-green-coordinating-a-windows-10-to-linux-upcycling-campaign-across-free-software-communities-worldwide/

Mon. 30 Dec. 13-15h B&B habitat join the BoF to organize a global #FreeSoftware campaign to raise awareness of Windows 10's EoL in 2025, the role of software in #eWaste, and how independent, sustainable #FOSS is a solution to keep devices in use & out of the landfill.

https://fahrplan.alpaka.space/jugend-hackt-38c3-2024/talk/ST8NJA/

38C3 #KDE #OpenSource

@kde

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As someone who is way into the idea of Linux, wants to switch, and is very gun-shy about the million little programs and extensions I might not be able to replace, let me tell you what is required of anybody who is actually genuine in their desire to see Linux gain the traction it deserves:
Don't ever tell anybody to read the manual again. Just answer the god damn question. It's good when answers to basic, common problems are peppered around the internet like that; it's dumb and wrong and weird to think of it as a thing to be avoided. If you'd like to put a link to the part of the manual where the questioner could have looked to find it, that's cool, too. Don't just leave the link--there's a good chance they didn't understand it and that's why they're asking. Maybe they just want a person-answer instead of a reference-manual-answer, and it's good when the answer exists in both forms. Every answered question is a contribution.
I would go even further: the version of reality where Linux beats Windows and ushers in an era of community-centric open source dominance is populated by a Linux community that considers "rtfm", "pebcac", etc to be borderline bannable offenses. If you are a small, weak person, and want Linux to be your way of thinking you're better than other people, you'll drive question-askers away, back to Inferiority Land, using your knowledge to dunk on them instead of help them, and call it a win. These are the ugly bridge trolls, who may as well be paid Microsoft employees, keeping people away from your community, and a serious change of pace might yield much smoother adoption. At the very least, the community owes it to their own work to see how much smoother.
As someone considering the switch seriously, the knowledge that I may have to deal with people like that is absolutely, 100% a factor, and I am someone who has no qualms about telling someone on the internet to fuck off, so it's gonna be more of an issue for many others who are more conflict-averse.
The Linux community needs to take very seriously whether it actually wants increased open source adoption, or if it wants to remain a tiny minority so that it has a nice, large majority to feel better than.
- I always try to help new users. I was a beginner once so I know how it feels to be told to rtfm by some cunt. Half the time I have an issue i'll search it up only to find some reddit post with someone asking the same question and getting shit on by elitists who have nothing going on in their own lives. In any case, if you ever need help I or someone else would be happy to help to the best of our ability.
  
  I hate it when you Google an issue and all you can find is a Reddit thread of the same problem where the only response is someone saying to Google it
  
  I'll take that over the windows 'support' forums where the people with superuser titles don't understand basic questions and the answer tends to be to see if it gets fixed in a future version of windows.
  And those posts are a decade old because they were never fixed.
  
  OMG, LOL. Yes!
  "Do <cut & paste from the MS support, please tell me if it helps" "Ehh, I was asking about something completely unrelated, bro..."
  But even that beats the Atlassian forums, LOL
  
  Related
- I hear ya. My theory is the Linux community is a world filled with autism. I am autistic (late diagnosed at 30, using Linux since 10yo). I think many of us are undiagnosed. I legit think if people just assumed a bit of neurodivergence in us you'll see we aren't hostile. We also need better manuals, such as video series', interactive tutorials and such. RTFM I agree is not welcome, but we do need these introductory materials (better than the arch wiki you autists) and we need high quality ones. I think that's a worthwhile investment, no?
- Linux is NOT a desktop OS. Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, Fedora are desktop OSses
  KDE is a desktop
  Linux is a kernel. Linux is Android, Linux is your NAS, the supercomputer where I work at and the servers that make the internet.
  Discussing Linux in terms of a desktop OS is moot.
  Windows includes FOSS, 99% of "all the small apps" are available in Linux, Mac or Windows.
  All the ones that not: Photoshop or MS Office are available on the cloud and way more powerful than their desktop veresions.
  You CAN have KDE / Kwin running on Windows.
  The Linux community does enough. "We" basically own the internet. If any of us wants a Linux based desktop we install it and use it. The rest can use Android.
- Without offenses but it's important to read instructions for anything in this life, the wash machine, robot cooking, your daily medication, etc., all of them have instructions.
  Most people that says "read the documentation" is also tired of people that can't read instructions how things works, and in this open source world everything minimum popular is well documented.
  I feel Windows users lacks many documentation and people are used to click to .exe that claims to do what they need to do, or they just follow some random user on a forum.
  When someone asks me to teach them to learn to programming, I tell them to just read documentation. No need to pay for extra courses or YouTube videos, most of the time you can learn it better and up to date if you go to the documentation.
  Then, after you did the proper search, it would make sense to open a post asking for help to gurus, telling them the steps you followed providing context and logs, if you don't do that, most experts would just ignore you if you can't spend time reading docs, they won't spend time solving your issue normally.
  
  people that can't read instructions how things works
  Pretty sure that's their point: If the instructions are too complex or intimidating, particularly if they're technically written, they may genuinely be unreadable to some users.
  There's a certain effect where, if something seems overwhelming, particularly if you already feared it might be, that will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. And once the overwhelm starts, once it sounds even a little too complex for users to be confident in their understanding, the brain goes into panic mode and holds on to "aaaah I can't do this".
  So yes, some people genuinely can't read instructions because static instructions don't talk to them, just at them, with no ability to respond and reassure if that panic hits. Human interaction often seems less intimidating because they can (ideally) respond to your confusion, reword just that part, hold your hand through the process, all of which instructions can't.
  Throwing them into the pool and telling them to learn swimming doesn't help: It makes them want to leave. Learning to read docs is a skill itself that needs to be developed separately, but making it an entry barrier risks scaring people off before their investment of time and focus starts paying off.
  and in this open source world everything minimum popular is well documented.
  Are those docs written or proofread by noobs? My experience with tech people (including myself, unfortunately) is that we tend to think in specific trained (or perhaps intuitive to us) patterns that don't neatly map on how non-techies perceive and understand the world. If I try to explain something, I don't even know where there are parts that I'd need to simplify, explain differently, what metaphors I could use to help understand and so on.
  Of course, techies do want those details I'd have to omit for non-techies. Some guides do really well with a "simple" and an "advanced" version of instructions. However, "documentation" doesn't always equal "guide", and some docs are really just a dry list of functiond and syntax, which brings us back to the topic of having to learn to read docs.
  When someone asks me to teach them to learn to programming
  ...they're already past the first threshold of "This is all way too much, I'll never learn that". Anyone willing to engage with programming already has conquered - or never had - that initial fear of not understanding stuff. For them, docs might not be much of a barrier, and if they're well-written may be a good point for slightly more advanced stuff.
  I'd argue they'll still need an initial intro to "how to think like a programmer" (or rather, "like a computer, and to solve backwards from that"), but in any case, they're not the target audience for "Linux as competitive desktop".
  Non-techies are, and to them, tech may well be scary. We need to account for that and ease them in by whatever means work best for them, if we want them to come to us, not what suits us best.
  
  This 100% I'm the computer person in my social circles, and my head sometimes starts to hurt from reading less than ideal documentation. Granted those are usually for pretty involved stuff, but it's pretty frustrating spending hours to chew through and not getting an answer after all.
  I'd imagine it's worse for people whose PC is not a hobby but a tool. You shouldn't need to spend a lot of time and effort on a tool just to get it working right. That might be fine for a used bargain tool, but you don't replace like half the world's OS's with a used bargain tool. That's not what people want or need.
  
  Learning to read docs is a skill itself that needs to be developed separately
  I think that is what you need to do to learn anything on computers... It's a skill, yeah, you need to improve it and not get scared, I remember those feelings a time ago, and now I realize everything fixes if I just read the docs/issues. No need to ask, so I wish the best for you and remember always to read the docs before posting/asking.
  Are those docs written or proofread by noobs?
  Depends, if a noob tries to do something complex they won't be able, let's use common sense also here. Don't try to do your own distro, but you can learn how Kdenlive works to edit a video or use --help on a command if you are not sure what it does or can do.
  techies do want those details I’d have to omit for non-techies
  If you don't understand the technical details of the documentation, or you search for what are those technical details (that can solve your issues) or you are on the wrong documentation.
  For a common user, if they want to play a game they just need to install Steam and enable the option to play Windows games on Linux, that would be the same as doing it on Windows, if the user doesn't know how to do it, they search and some user or doc explains to go to the settings and enable it, or install steam via commands or using GUI.
  If the application Kdenlive stopped to work without any error message, then you can go to the source git page and look for issues related, and you would appreciate a lot to find all the open source programs and dependencies with their own git pages to find recent issues reported (on Windows is harder as most stuff is hidden and closed).
  But if Microsoft Office stop to work without any error message, then yeah, developers needs to send you random steps to hope it fixes your issues, and probably they won't ask you the logs, not much doc to read for this case. I think they have some basic help steps like re-install, clean cache and reboot your device, that doesn't really help when something is crashing hard.
  If the documentation you're reading is too technic then you need to improve your tech skills, there is nothing wrong learning how a desktop interface works (as example), in the future you will be able to adapt it to your needs, and it won't force you to accept a change like with WinXP/Win7/Win8/Win10/Win11 interfaces.
  …they’re already past the first threshold of “This is all way too much, I’ll never learn that”.
  Maybe 3 of 10 people that asked me that actually did anything, other people are just lazy that thinks the work of a programmer is easy, as a programmer we need to read many documentation for everything new or change or update on our development stuff. We not only read but also write documentation, to then, some random guy to ask something you have been writing on your own blog and documentation. Understand then if they just respond you telling to read the docs.
  
  you need to improve it and not get scared [emphasis mine]
  That's the issue. The median user will get scared. They can't accurately assess their own competence before they try it, and trying something new is scary. "What if I break something? What if I can't undo it?" They won't rely on docs or git pages or man pages or --help (they may not want to touch the CLI at all), because ultimately, that would require them relying on their own understanding thereof.
  Impersonal docs, particularly if they're not written with accessibility for laypeople in mind, can't replace guides, and a general guide can't replace specific advice, and none of these can replace the assurance of having a universally helpful support community that will hold their hand if they need it and reliably bail them out if something goes wrong. The median user cannot possibly teach themselves, because they lack the fundamental knowledge and confidence to even assess their level of understanding. You and I, we're on the tech end of the distribution. We have a basic understanding and mindset. The median user does not.
  They can't trust themselves, so they need someone else to trust. If we want to welcome more people into the FOSS ecosystem in general and Linux in particular, we need to be that someone, and they need to know that they will have that support.
  It's not just about helping them, it's about the public impression. If they google for assistance and only find threads telling people to RTFM, they're scared to ask, scared to try even. The learning curve you take for granted, the skill "you need to improve", looks a lot like a wall from that point of view.
  Linux is still perceived as a rather technical thing. We need to cultivate the impression - and the community to back it up - that it's not actually complicated, and that you'll readily find people to help you if you take the leap.
  Improving tech literacy is an important thing, no doubt, but you can't get people on board by saying "you have to". You have to coax them over by promising easy returns on a small investment of time and effort, then let their curiosity lead them further - if they need deeper skills at all.
  or you are on the wrong documentation.
  Ah yes, because you have the choice of so many different documentations for everything, and all those documentations make sure to point out the others in case you landed on the wrong one for you.
  other people are just lazy that thinks the work of a programmer is easy
  Doesn't have to be laziness. If your misconception is shattered, that's a shock. If they don't have anyone to ease them through that shock, they'll do the most natural thing: stay away. If you make it easy to get into, you'll surely have more success than by walling them off so that only those willing to climb can get into your walled garden.
  
  I don't get now where you want to go now. If you want to know about computers then read, if not... just keep using things that marketing sells you. If you want to ask without reading, then better pay for a professional (or ask for someone close to you that knows computers). Like all Windows users do when they have issues. And this would apply online, if you don't pay them, why they need to read for you? Pay for the time professionals spend for you if you can't read. Normally people don't read complex documentation, they just need how to install some app or how to configure something from their desktop or printer drivers, pay or read how to do it, doesn't matter if you are using Windows or Linux, because Windows also crashes and have issues also, Linux is ready for users.
  If you make it easy
  Anything new is hard, if they are used to Windows as most people, everyone would think Windows is easier than Linux, but it's just because they are used to the other OS. Get used to Linux. Use it, read how it works. Start small. Don't read complex documentation or even try to compile the kernel on your first day.
  
  Let me clarify: I myself have used Linux as my only OS since the end of Win7 support, but I've used it via dualboot for anything not gaming even before. I'm fairly adept by now, so this whole conversation isn't about my personal learning.
  It's about coaxing Windows users over to Linux. If you don't care about that, stop reading and stop replying, because that's what the whole thread was about and you clearly missed the point. If you do, we need to give people both a reason to switch and an easy transition.
  Linux has a public image of "complicated" and will always have the hurdle of having to learn something different. The point is that we need to update the first (the public perception) and help people over the second as smoothly as possible. We need to project the impression that it's no longer complicated like it used to be, and if you need help with anything, there will be plenty of people willing to help you.
  And that's where we get to the "RTFM" issue: People responding to questions with "You're on your own" harm that impression. A new user skimming a forum or googling some issue can't tell whether it's a simple question or a hard question, whether it's good documentation or bad documentation, all they see is someone asking for help and getting a "lol no". That reputation spreads, and it speaks to a self-centered culture where "figure it out yourself" isn't just acceptable, but the norm.
  If you want to win people over, you have to welcome them in. That includes showing a willingness to help them.
  Besides, isn't the whole point of FOSS to help each other out for free, to break the commercial cycle of enshittification and exploitation?
  
  this whole conversation isn’t about my personal learning
  Sorry, I will use "a person" when trying to make examples not related with you.
  If you don’t care
  I'm super obsessed with Linux, I always tell people to use Linux, I try even the older people to get into Linux, I tell friends to install it and I try to help them. I'm really obsessed with Linux system, I really love it, and it hurts me when people just gets scared when I mention Linux (because that happened to me, some people don't want to hear the "Linux" word).
  public image of “complicated”
  I think that's what I was talking about Microsoft never going to allow to Linux be popular, they just want it to be a solution for programmers, they don't want people to see Linux for a daily OS. The marketing and mass media is the main issue, if more users uses Linux, more companies will focus their apps for Linux. Until then, we need to read git source pages to see if they made the app for us (anyway, Wine should be able to run it if the app doesn't have many requirements).
  isn’t just acceptable, but the norm
  It is possible to buy computers with Linux OS already installed, so you can just open the browser and search what you want to know what to do on Linux, for example video editing, you can use Kdenlive and many YouTube tutorials for Linux and you would do it also if you had Windows OS, unless you paid for a teacher, but when someone never touched a Windows, normally they need to seek for tutorials or guides, Windows and Linux has, but Windows is limited and Linux allows you to do much more.
  whole point of FOSS to help each other out for free
  The "F" in FOSS stands for "Free" and refers to free as in freedom, not just "free as in no cost." You can commercialize your FOSS projects without problem, the whole point of FOSS is the freedom.
  
  I think we're talking in circles here. My point is: Telling people to go read the docs contributes to the perception of the linux community as closed and unhelpful. That perception doesn't help with winning over more people. As you note:
  if more users uses Linux, more companies will focus their apps for Linux
  But that cycle has to start somewhere, and until companies start picking up, we need to do it ourselves, for ideological reasons if not monetary ones. Telling people to start out with easy guides is good, but redirecting further questions to docs and git pages builds a wall.
  Why should I do the reading for someone without pay? Because I can, I trust my understanding and I want to help them.
  
  Telling people to start out with easy guides is good, but redirecting further questions to docs and git pages builds a wall.
  But there are hard and easy guides, just go to the easy guides. The times someone said to me to read the docs, they were right. Often when I want to start a post asking for help or reporting an issue I realize that issue has been reported already or documented before I finish writing it, because I do my searches while I write my issue adding context of it.
  If your skills aren't good for that guide, start with something simple, I don't know what kind of issue happens that what you are explaining.
  Why should I do the reading for someone without pay? Because I can, I trust my understanding and I want to help them.
  I do help anyone, no matter if they use Android, Linux, Windows, Apple... The best way to help them for me is to sit behind them and tell them what steps to take, often they ask me what to do, and then I tell them to read what is on the screen, the app window or the popup, and here I say, "just read, what does it say?" and the text they read is often the response to what they want to do.
  
  I realize that issue has been reported already or documented before I finish writing it, because I do my searches while I write my issue adding context of it.
  That's what I mean: we're techies. We know what context may be relevant. We know how to read that documentation and we know how to search for it. When we read documentation, we can tell whether we understand it, we can try if a fix applies to our issue, we can recognise if a given issue description matched ours. When we read a message, we know what is or isn't a technical term and what they refer to. We know synonyms like folder and directory, we understand that a word document, powerpoint presentation or executable all are "files", we trust our understanding and our ability to compensate whatever we don't know with searches or educated guesses.
  All of these things require understanding a lot of tech words and a degree of trust in your understanding, and that's where non-tech users hit a snag. I'll tell them "You don't need to buy a new Windows key to reinstall it, you can check your current one. Here's a good and detailed guide." They'll get back with "I don't know what that command thing is, it looks scary, I'm not doing that" because they don't trust themselves. It's literally a step by step guide for opening the cmd, entering a command and finding a relevant part of the text it produces, and they get scared that they'll mess it up because they have absolutely zero understanding of the components. They don't know what a command line is, they don't know what a text command is, they know nothing of what we take for granted.
  They said they'd need someone to guide them through and basically hold their hand for it, someone to unfuck whatever they fuck up, or at least confirm that what they're doing is right, to help them understand the output and assure them that the text means exactly what they think it means.
  When you sit behind them and tell them what to do, to just read the message without fear of not understanding, that's exactly the helping I mean. In order to even dare to try Linux, people need the assurance that, whatever their issue, someone will be there for them. And that assurance comes through the way we treat questions online - all question, not just the more complex ones, because the layperson can't tell the difference.
  When they come asking for help, don't send them away. No matter how familiar the docs and git pages may be for you, don't just send them there. Show them what they have to do, where it is written, how it is written there and how to understand that writing. Guide them, and they'll be happier to follow.
  
  This is why everything comes with a quick start 1 page guide AND a manual.
  
  Even home appliances don't come with the full spec technical manual. They come with the user manual so you'd know how to use your appliance, not how to fix your appliance (with the exceptions being some easy to fix user errors). When people get technical errors on their home appliances they call a technician to fix those errors, because most people lack the technical knowledge to fix things themselves. And I imagine it's the same for you. I'm pretty sure you don't fix your own car. Now imagine if you went to a mechanic to have your car fixed and they say "Just read the fucking manual and don't waste my time". What are you going to do? Read the manual that you didn't even know existed until that point and you'd first have to spend some time actually finding the manual (because some of those technical manuals are a fucking pain in the ass to find, if they're even readily available), or find another mechanic that would fix your car? What if all the mechanics tell you to go read the manual? How much of your own time would you be willing to invest into fixing an issue you didn't want to fix by yourself in the first place? What if someone offered to replace your entire car for free? Would you still spend time fixing your car or would you go "fuck it, I just need it to work"?
  And that's the average Windows/Linux user. They just want an operating system that works. They don't want to understand all the technical stuff that goes on under the hood and when something breaks they want "a technician" to give them a quick solution, because knowing the inner workings of Linux is not a priority for them. Maybe they're the car mechanic that would fix your car and they've spent their time learning the inner works of a few dozen cars. People focus their time and attention on different things so getting angry at someone not wanting to learn Linux is like a car mechanic getting angry at you for not wanting to learn how your car works or a personal trainer getting angry because you don't know how your own body works etc.. Just because you know how Linux works does not mean everyone should know how Linux works.
  
  More or less is what I was saying.
  Now imagine if you went to a mechanic to have your car fixed and they say “Just read the fucking manual and don’t waste my time”. What are you going to do?
  I said that you should pay the professional instead.
  Even home appliances don’t come with the full spec technical manual.
  Depends on what you buy there is more or less doc, things I often read is what to not do to not break it and how to get it ready and "running" correctly, as I would do with a microwave or to put air on my car wheels (I always open the book to read the correct values of air bar pressure for the wheels).
  inner workings of Linux is not a priority
  Most Windows users neither want to know the inner working of Windows, they pay experts to fix issues, or they click .exe files.
  Just because you know how Linux works does not mean everyone should know how Linux works.
  I didn't say that, I said that they need to get used how Linux works, because most people are used to Windows, and they all expect Linux to work like a Windows. But I know that I know a lot about Linux without asking anyone, just reading wiki, docs, git projects... some blogs or even YouTube videos. And now, as experienced user for more than 10 years with Linux distros, all this is really easy, I often do pretty amazing stuff as hobby at home and all that by reading stuff on internet how to do it. Thanks to my skill of reading docs, I am working with people with university degrees with the same salary/benefits as me, but I do not have studies more than the mandatory. If you are not into computers, you can keep using Windows or try to learn how Linux works to get used to it. The problem is the marketing, I'm sure all of us had a Windows machine much before we touched a Linux, rarely a person starts using their first computer with a Linux distro.
  Summary: Expect a Linux guru to tell you to read the documentation as a car mechanic would tell you to do the engineering degree to fix your car.
  If you have someone close to you that knows what happens to your car, and they tell you how to fix it, and it works, congratulations, the same would happen if you need to fix your printer drivers. But that person won't tell you how to fix your car motor engine (I mean more complex component), the same happens with the Linux guru.
  🫤 Sorry but I don't really see the problem here more than the capitalism system that we have. Microsoft will never allow Linux to be popular, that's why 99% of computers comes with Windows, the money rules the world.

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