I hate how everything requires you to download a shitty proprietary data harvesting app nowadays when everything can be done just fine without an app.

A person's music taste seems to crystalize at some point in their teenage years. The bands you loved at 15-17 are probably the bands that you'll love forever.
Likewise, I'm finding that my relationship with information services as a whole probably crystalized a while ago, and the new era of "apps for every individual thing" is just wholly unappealing. Give me a web browser to interface with your information. If I can't get it done with that, I'm more likely to move on to some even older tech and skip your product altogether.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm late to bingo. And get off my lawn.
Me: "seems to" "at some point" "probably" while making a minor, secondary point. Others: Severely Triggered
- I'm doing my best to constantly listen to new music every week to keep fresh and malleable in my taste
  
  yea, discovering is part of the fun
  
  I HATED rap and whatnot when I was 12-19 or so. Apple too.
  Now I’m constantly listening to clipping. and doneone and UGK (RIP Young Pimp C) on my iPhone.
- Dunno I can't stand the music I listened to in my teenage years.
  
  I dont listen to anyone I liked as I kid cause they all came out as sex traffickers and pedophiles.
  now I just listen to disney music, and waiting for the inevitable horror revelations with regards to those.
  
  I WILL NEVER STOP LOVING THE BLOOD BROTHERS
- The bands you loved at 15-17 are probably the bands that you'll love forever.
  Thank god that wasn't the case. Listened to some awful shit as a kid
  
  Me neither. I wonder if that's even true, because i see a lot of people changing tastes with age.
- PWAs for the win!
- Everything that's normal between age 10-20 is just as it is.
  Everything you get to know between 20 and 30 is the hot new shit.
  Everything after age 30 is just another fad you don't want to invest time to get to know anyway
  
  I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
  Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
  Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
  Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
  ― Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt
- That's altogether BS. The bands I listen to have changed constantly since my teenage years. That's just an excuse to become a ranting old man.
- Wait come back!! You dropped your cane!
- cut out avocado toast and Starbucks (sarcasm)
- One of the credit card companies I use has a website that won't work properly anymore in my phone's browser.
  My wife has a card through this company as well and she uses their app with no problems.
  I have zero interest in installing their app so once a month I fire up my surface pro just to pay that damn bill.
  It used to work just fine in the phone browser though.
  Should probably just cancel that shitty account one of these days.
- An interesting experiment on the music thing. Top songs on your 13th birthday, at least for US/North Americans. https://www.birthdayjams.com
  
  Wonder what they use your birthday for?
- I’m finding that my relationship with information services as a whole probably crystalized a while ago
  You are correct but it goes further:
  Any tech that existed before you start school is completely natural and quite boring.
  Any tech that is invented while you still care about new tech (this can be anywhere between 15 and 45 as it depends on the person) is exciting and cool.
  Anything after that is squarely in get off my lawn territory and a bit scary and confronting.
- I don't know if anyone growing up these days would actually like mobile app requirements if they took the time to think about why they're required. Source: I'm one of them.
  
  Most people young or old don't think about it and don't care.
- Not necessarily... I grew up already in the era of apps, but have the same attitude. And I actually did actively use a smartphone during my tween and early teen years.
- I don't think that's true. I like what I liked what I was a teen but more in a nostalgic kind of way. I definitely didn't like harder metalcore in my teens the way I do now lol.
- Nice bullshit armchair Freud u hating every change due to immaturity or unwillingness to learn doesnt mean we do too

I realize you may just be venting but consider complaining to your college administration either via your student council or by yourself.
It should not be the norm to have to tell a stranger where you are to eat food.
You are paying for your education even if you are doing so via a loan and that gives you the right to tell them how you feel about them invading your privacy. In college and in jobs authority figures routinely try to control you and it is worth learning to take a stand against such abuses.
- They literally could not give one fuck less. They are probably being paid or otherwise are getting some other kind of kickback to push these apps. Colleges are...I hesitate to say greedy, but let's call it "capitalistic".
  
  I agree with the sentiment, but if no one ever complains things are guaranteed to not change. At least this is, at the very least, an exercise in explaining your own viewpoints and understanding the workings of an institution. That is a skill and lesson that is valuable in the professional world.
- via your student council or by yourself.
  This is literally what the student council exists for! Also, OP could join student council! As a graduated student government nerd I highly recommend it!
  Worth noting the college probably did it because they want to appear to be technologically advanced. As part of Student government I visited a campus that had no public water fountains but did have a gigantic touchscreen map about the size of a normal printed map that conveyed no extra information that a printed map would. It was very clear what motivations were behind those decisions

I went to college before it was app everything and our student id's were smartcards. Dining plan associated with the smartcard. Just stick it in the reader when you show up and you're good. You could put cash on your card then use it for the vending machines or laundry or any little incidental on campus. If you needed cashed added to your account, your parents could go online and do it, or you could. That was the only online component. The entire system just worked without any fuss or privacy concerns or anything.
- Our university made it so anything you can buy with the card was like 20-50% more expensive tho. I usually never bought anything on campus because of it :/
- Almost without any privacy concerns. When I went to college around the turn of the millennium, I worked at the main food court on campus. We had a card system just like you're describing. When we swiped the student's card to pay for their meal, their student ID would come up on my screen. Their student ID was their SSN. Back then the first three digits of a person's SSN was based on the state they lived in when they got their number assigned. For most people that was when they were a baby or at least very young, and for most people that's the state they did most of their growing up in. I used to have most of the codes memorized, so when I'd swipe someone's card and see that they had an SSN from someplace that wasn't the state where the university was, I'd mention it. "Oh, hey, you're from Ohio? My aunt lives in Ohio."
  
  Yikes! That was a privacy nightmare. We were fortunate that the university assigned a personal ID on enrollment. I think the only place that had access to the social was the front office. Of course some of the students worked at the front office. I hope they were required to sign an NDA.
- Yeah it worked this was in the late 90s except your ID was a swipe card and it really only worked on food. You also had to go to the business office with a check to deposit more funds. Online was still dial up for most people.
- That's still how it works where I am, but the little devices to renew your card every semester are broken half the time, so yay
- Yeah, same but they also worked as bus passes.
- I like this too because it doesn't require you to turn on NFC which I feel like drains power.
  
  I mean, it does. But it’s such an insignificant amount you’d never notice.
  If you got an hour of use out of your phone for instance, you’d only lose about 18 seconds runtime.

The number of business that just expect that everyone has already downloaded and installed their app has become ridiculous.
Best Buy now demands an app be installed for order pick up. They are so sure you'll have already done that there are no instructions in their parking lot for pick up that don't include the app, no way to call them, and the lot employees say, "Just use the app and we'll get your order." It's like the 20% tips programmed into just about every payment machine these days. No, I won't leave you a 20% tip for handing me a receipt.
Even when going to Best Buy's service desk the reps looked at me like I was crazy. "No, I won't install your app to pick up an order" was met with confusion and open irritation. Fuck that.
And don't get me started on 'Reddit is better in our crappy Reddit app.'
- Dude same here for the Reddit prompt ! I browse incognito without a profile just to see some headlines... and every ten minutes or if I got to a risque sub, it will stop me and ask for the app download or if I want to stay on the browser..... if I wanted the app.. I would have gotten it.. I am on the browser for a reason...
  
  Just use third party apps. Oh wait...
  
  Try to use "request desktop site", stuff may be sized weirdly, but at least you don't get that stupid pop up anymore
  
  When something’s flagged NSFW, you can replace the “www” with “old” (e.g. old dot reddit dot com) to bypass :)
- Fast food is about 30% more expensive if you refuse the app.
  Personal experience:
  Tim Hortons
  Wendy's:
  
  That's always the case in the beginning with those apps. And once they have market dominance and/or the shareholders want their ROI, they increase price and hope people still use it. See Uber for example.
  
  This is why I hope to god when I'm living in my own we never get to the point where apps become 100% required to purchase shit from a store. I'd rather starve and miss a day's worth of meals than order off an app.
  
  Yeah, I hate that. At an old job, sometimes people would go around and take lunch orders before running to Wendy's, Hate Chicken, or Chipotle. I'd way rather give my coworker cash and let them have the bonuses and discounts and crap while I maintain the privacy afforded to cash-only Chads. It's still an L though because we're still giving the companies money.
- Jesus, it's like they want you to order online from a third party instead of paying them.
  
  All the best buys I know of are shutting down. Doing the ol' circuit city.
- Weird. I can just go to the mobile Best Buy site, pull up my order from my account, and get the barcode they need to scan from there. No need for the app.
  I can do the same with the desktop site.
  
  IMO people should not have to know a company's policies and go through their website to make a purchase. Anyway, it would have been nice if they put that information on the sign in their pickup area, or their pickup reps or desk clerks mentioned it when I told them I didn't have the app. Instead they made it clear that everyone should either already have the app or install it because they said so.
  Way, way too many companies and organizations (like the OP's) are pulling this kind of crap.
- Reddit is better in our crappy Reddit app.
  Oh fuck reddit for doing that.
- I ordered online and picked up in store at best buy without their app. I showed them the email they sent with the info. No problems at all.
  
  Could it be there's more than one Best Buy?

How can people push back on this insanity? I don't want 500 goddamn apps on my phone nor do I want 500 accounts on "portals" or what fucking ever your calling it today.
I agree with OP, but how do we resist the borg?
- Yet some local retailers somewhat insist on doing their own app.
  One instead of a website where I could look at their course catalog and book had App Store/Google Play apps. They were terrible, and wouldn't install on a still-supported Google Pixel phone, a friend with an iPhone tried the Apple version and said it was horrendous and uninstalled it immediately.
  I don't understand why they went with terrible custom apps, a responsive website would have been so much more convenient and easier to maintain! Also, call me old-fashioned but some things I just prefer doing from the comfort of my desktop with a nice big screen, keyboard, and mouse.
- In things where I can't avoid an account, I use an email alias (personally I use Mozilla Relay, but Proton Pass offers logins as well if I recall.
  Edit: for clarity, this adds at least a level of abstraction from my actual data. It's not the only thing I do, such as blackhole DNS via PiHole, VPN in other scenarios, Tor for others (for those curious, pihole and Tor don't work at the same time, and pihole and VPN generally doesn't either without extra work and it's not compatible with every VPN).
- The 80s movie classic War Games has the answer:
  STRANGE GAME...THE ONLY WAY TO WIN IS NOT TOO PLAY...
- One way is to just lie and say you only have a flip phone. There are probably millions of old people that refuse to use smartphones because they don't understand them and there no reason you can't pretend to also have a dumb phone.
  
  GREAT idea! I have both a flip and a smart phone.

My apartment complex wants me to download some third-party app just to pay my rent, instead of using their perfectly serviceable web portal. I assume they're getting a data harvest kickback that's buried in several layers of fine-print legalese, which will be used to send me targeted spam and junk mail. And that data will be sold and re-sold to other parties ad infinitum. Whatever they can collect about my personal life, for sale to any asshole with enough cash in their pocket. Fuck that. I shouldn't have to deal with this bullshit just to keep a roof over my head.
- I was visiting family in the city I grew up in and we decided to go to this place that now charges for parking. It's a city lot. I figured I have to get this app to park. The city app.
  First, it was a nightmare of horrible bad UX and half-assed customization. Second, it took about 15 minutes of bs to pay for parking (time outs, a couple 2fa's, we need you to use a social but we haven't set up that login path correctly). Finally, get parking paid, my wife is losing her mind thinking I'm an idiot because it took so long, and then the spam calls started. I literally wasn't into the building and I was getting spam texts and robo calls. I'm not talking "goods and services I might like" , this was "Canadian border services has determined you have unpaid fines" voicemails and "hi, i just found your number again can u text" type stuff. Just wild.
  
  That's terrible. So much data harvesting out there. It's crazy. Cities and companies hire out to contractors that also do shady shit to the code to also harvest that data. It's wild.
  
  Oh I feel this in my soul. I am pregnant and have a two year old.. I was and am a huge customer of pampers (and enfamil formula for when my two year old was little) the apps have kick backs... and against my better judgement z I broke down and got these apps for the kick back.... I regret it.. my email is overwhelmed with spam suddenly... an email I worked hard to get all the spam out of a few months ago.. I am also getting random calls and voicemails for services I would never use. It's so frustrating.. I just wanted to the points for the products I normally buy to save a few pennies... but can't do it with out my data being harvested and being spammed with crap
- Does your lease precise you have to use the app or own a smartphone ? If not, get a cellphone, like those new 3210. Call them, ask them how to install, or visit their office. Play it dumb. Of they tell you to get a smartphone, tell them to provide you one.
  
  Or use your bank's bill-pay service. They'll mail a check or send it electronically (which is effectively the same as using a debit card).

And furthermore: Most of these shitty apps are nothing more than overblown API clients. Which means they didn't want to build a website and operate a webserver, so instead you provide the processing power for the UI yourself. These apps usually can't do anything on their own, if you are offline, becaue all the value is generated remotely by the actual server.
The modern software experience sucks much!
- When you have a website, you also provide the processing power for executing JavaScript and rendering HTML+CSS.
  Why they would prefer an app (that's by definition less compatible) is unknown for me, but I can attempt to guess it's simpler for some reason.
  
  It's about control. Websites cannot control the browser or browser addons. The browser makes it harder to track and control the user. An app by definition allows more hardware access, even if modern mobile OS can control it pretty good. But then again, most users allow everything anyways.

My favorite barber was booked out recently, so I just walked into the next one across the road, which looked new and had no customers inside. Asked for the haircut, and he said sure, what's your name and email address? I was confused and asked why he would need that, and he said it's for his app to book appointments and charge customers.
I walked out without getting a haircut.
- Good, that's the only way people like that will change
- That may be why he had no customers
- fake@fake.com
  Same thing but with a phone number. They were baffled that I didn't want to give my phone number for a haircut.
  
  Hell, I get annoyed at being asked my first name at the counter in fast food places.
  Like, give me a break... I'll be the guy who looks like me standing right fucking there waiting for it... We don't need to be on a first name basis... We ain't friends.
- Lol ok Boomer. Just say I'd rather not give that info
  
  Well yeah, and his response was "sorry sir, but without an account we cannot serve customers..."
  
  Cute insult. Got any more you'd like to use?
  
  That what he did, Zoomer... lmao 🤣😂

An app in itself isn't a bad thing.. it's the requirement that is wrong. Everything these days does seem to be geared around data mining and control. That well has to be getting awfully dry because it's getting worse and worse.
You can't even use many products without having an app that needs to be connected online so it can read your contacts and searches and such. Sites are getting harder to use if you have a DNS ad blocker or VPN on. Not sure where it ends..
- It ends when out corporate overlords achieve the state of life depicted in Wall-E.
  
  No.
  It ends when we eat our corporate overlords. I look forward to sprinkling Torgo's Executive Powder on my favorite dish.
  
  I wish I could disagree with you but the path does seem pretty clear.
- I can only speak from the experience of one app at one company, but data we collected was for troubleshooting. Mainly because customers will email us stuff like "your app doesn't work!!!!! Worst company ever!!" And absolutely no identifying information whatsoever. To make matters worse they'll email with an email that they didn't give us as a customer so how in the world are we supposed to help‽
  So we collect enough data so whoever in the company might need to help them can actually do so.
  There's a lot of "this app is impossible to use!!!" That we find out with enough data collection is just them refusing to hit the GIANT button in the middle of the damn screen that would solve their problem. I hate users.
  I believe we answered questions in the Apple and Google stores that says that we collect information and send it to 3rd parties (because analytics platforms are technically 3rd party) but not to sell it. I don't know if that distinction is clear on the stores though.
  
  I used to work in a job where we had a niche ebook reader app in the major app stores. My favorite review that someone left?
  1 star, Worst game ever.
  
  Collecting data relevant to the app is ok and logical. It's collecting unrelated personal info I gave a problem with.
  And i can sympathize with you regarding users. I design control system interfaces and sometimes I go to extremes to make it good for idiots. And i still get calls at 7am, have to drop everything else and drive 40 miles just to point out the giant red ALARM text i specifically put there to make things easier. It's on the first fucking page!
  It's nice that remote access is easier now but some of these facility managers... i don't know who puts their pants on for them because they don't seem to be able to navigate treacherous logic and reason.
  I hope I didn't just quote your whole post, still trying to figure out boost hah

My apartment “upgraded” us to digital locks and now we have to use an app to unlock our door. I was so pissed the entire time they were installing them. I don’t like the idea that the locks could run out of battery and keep us out, and I feel much more insecure in my apt. It also feels like our comings and goings can be spied on now. I hate this future.
- The worst part of that is if your apartment management company gets phished then that person can now get into everyone’s apartment without setting off red flags to other residents since they can just unlock and walk right in.
  
  Or some hacker decides to change the code...
- Also annoying: you can't leave the house without your tracking device anymore :/
- I installed something similar at my house, just a keypad, not app connected. It's awesome. But a key will still unlock it. They are wonderful if it's not connected to the Internet.
- Yeah. Someday appliances will probably try to get us to buy their art of electric sheep too.
- Electric locks are supposed to fail safe. So if they run out of battery, they should remain open, not closed.
  
  That does not sound awesome either. I Leave the apartment locked up, return to find the front door wide open because the battery died while I was out getting milk.
  My keypad lock has a regular lock as a backup... Why not just do that.
- I once had a dorm room lock run out of battery. It is beyond annoying, I'm sorry for your loss.
  
  I had the same thing happen. I also found out that's if I kicked the door hard enough the lock gave way rather than brake.
- Hey if you ever have to kick your door in make sure to take one or two steps and firmly flatly plant your foot on the door as near to the handle/knob/latch as you can. Try to step into and kick through it in stride. You'll need as much of your weight thrown into the kick as you can. Remember how pissed you were while they were installing the new locks youll need that
  Do not use your shoulder you will injure it
  
  Beautiful!!
- Hopefully you're looking at different place now
- You can get number pad locks, no app just press the buttons. But yeah battery.
- If only we had some physical object that could never run out of power, let's call it a "key"...
- House insurance does not cover digital house lock
- I seem to remember some lawsuits about that situation
- If the battery goes out do to something like power outage or something else and it remain locked, that sounds like the perfect excuse to "accidentally" start a fire and then claim you were trapped in your home due to the door not unlocking. Bonus points for acting like it shook up your whole life because you lost a lot of your possessions because the complex/building/whatever decided to remove physical locks.
  Extra bonus points if a power outage or whatever genuinely locks you in, a fire breaks out, and you get hurt. In that case, if you have renters insurance, you may not only receive payout for that, but also for suing them if the door remained locked while there was no power.
  
  Fire regulations require a crash bar to be able to leave a building regardless of the lock

Can't agree more. And the issues go beyond data harvesting. For example, recently, I lost my phone and carried on for a while without it, only to realize we're building a society in which we are slowly losing our citizenship rights if we don't have a phone. I found myself locked out from many things, and having to go so many alternate routes, that I had to get a new phone quickly.
It all happened so subtly, and I saw it happening, but still, it's hard to believe we came to this point without the people manifesting some sort of opposition. I get even more worried about the developing countries, where not everyone can properly afford a phone.
- I think we are the frogs being boiled in the pot of enshittification
- I've been called a crazy conspiracy theorist since 2009 and my first Android. Hated all the sync/tracking Google was doing that was killing my battery then. Disable Google, and now I get a full day's battery, back then.
  People still don't listen to me about this issue, 10+ years later.
  
  Those google apps are also the number 1 reason of phones getting slower over time and leading people to buy new ones. Fuck google.
- That's the reason I stopped using a smartphone in 2020. Never has much problem thus far except for Steam, which required using their app for confirming the trades (even for simple items worth fractions of a penny). I now use an Android VM for this.
  
  If Steam could just do that with standard TOTP already...
  2FA is the only reason I'd need the app, but installing it just for this one feature? Not the only service I have this problem with. Just let me use Aegis ffs

I insist on doing as much as I can on my mobile browser to reduce the number of apps I have and only use apps that I feel are useful. Forcing me to use an app for trivial things just means I won't use your service at all.
Works pretty well, and one of the things I like about Lemmy is that the mobile browser experience is perfectly fine, it's good in its simplicity.
- Yep. Firefox > Desktop Site > Add to Home Screen. Not perfect but works fine in most cases.

Smart phones ruined the internet
- No. The corporations have ruined the Internet
  
  No, greedy people ruined the internet.
  
  Both are responsible
- Capitalism ruined the Internet
  
  Capitalism ruined humanity
  
  Money makes pretty much everything worse.

Funny you mention enshittification, I just watched a talk from Cory Doctorow who coined that term and he pointed out the reason for insisting on an app is that it means you can’t block ads without violating the DMCA. Browsers can have adblocker extensions, apps cannot (unless you hack them.)
- it means you can’t block ads without violating the DMCA. Browsers can have adblocker extensions, apps cannot (unless you hack them.)
  I imagine this is just going to lead to more people using DNS ad blockers. My phone literally can't access your ad server, sorry.
  
  Private DNS FTW!
  dns.adguard.com
  On Android:
  Swipe down and select settings (the gear)
  Search for: DNS
  Select Private DNS.
  Select Private DNS again.
  Select Private DNS provider hostname.
  Enter: dns.adguard.com
  Select Save
  Enjoy most ads being blocked in apps.
  Might work poorly on public wifi (Walmart wifi for example doesn't work with a private DNS set).
  On Apple:
  Fuck if I know.
  
  As an app developer some people just get hard for an app and don't know why they would want one.
  It's rarely some big plan just an ego thing
  
  If DNS ad blockers get popular enough, there are easy enough workarounds. The workarounds have tradeoffs such as security or stability, but they'll serve the ads for at least the current year.
  
  Unless someone makes a router that does that in firmware, there’s a lot of people who won’t bother.
- This one? It came up as the next post on sync:
  https://lemmy.ml/post/5431352
  
  That’s the one!
- oh noo not the dmca. i love following the dmca with all my heart
- That’s why I use the browser for pretty much everything.

I'm sure we've all experienced this...
Go to example.com
"Ooops! It looks like you're on a mobile device, which we for some asinine corporate reason don't support on our desktop site! No "enable desktop site" won't make this message go away because we make an unreasonable effort to deny you access to our site. Go to mobile.example.com instead."
Goes to mobile.example.com
"Just kidding! What, you think we were actually going to let you access this without installing something? No, fuck you! This page is literally just a full screen ad for our app and has no access to any other part of platform, download it and agree to it's fifty permissions before we'll even give you a glimpse of our content!"
- When you download the app, it's just a web page packaged with all the tracking software.
- If you try to read comments on reddit on their website it eventually forces you to use the app to continue.
  
  use old.reddit and it works fine
  
  And then that ends up giving you another reason to switch to lemmy and screw reddit.

Yes, this is a trend I've been commenting on for...well it seems like a very long time.
It's clearly enshittification in nearly every single case; the more clueless johnny-come-lately tech-trendsters want to label me as just being old-fashioned or something when I bring it up. Trying to explain to them what is going on is usually a pointless exercise, as they have been steeped in a new==better mindset that is nearly ironclad and since they didn't use reason to get themselves into that position, but instead, emotion, trying to reason them out of it is not going to happen...
- And they get bombarded by app developers and consultants telling them they MUST have an app or all these bad things will happen to them.

I refuse to use services that demand you use their app.
Services only need a website for the most part, not only is this easier for development cost but it is simplier to create a mobile friendly website instead of creating an Android app, iOS app and a desktop app.
- To be fair, there are frameworks like Flutter nowadays that let you build your app once in one language and it will build/compile an iOS, Android, and web app for you.
  
  True, I am all for Flutter and Tauri. However websites are better for sevices since it is not likely the company will release a fully open source app or APIs for developers to build apps for the service. There are many web clients out there that are open source and allow for a good private web experience.
  And even if a company does release a FOSS app, it is hard to get the company to release the app on alternative app stores like F-Droid.
  Also I do not want a million apps on my phone taking up space, that could be running in the background and harvesting my data. Websites or PWA are like one-time apps you load in the browser, use and the close to discard, especially when you use your browser private mode.
- instead of creating an Android app, iOS app and a desktop app.
  Why do that when you can just have a buggy and crappy experience taylored specifically for each device?

A while ago, I started keeping a personal library/journal/etc. using Logseq. I could fire up Logseq in any browser on the planet, connect to my notes, and jot down whatever idea I had in the moment, all in a FOSS journal that stored my notes in plaintext markdown.
Then ... I don't know what happened, but 100% of their effort went into building an app, which then required them to build a (paid, proprietary) sync service, all rather than just releasing a self-hosted build of the web interface so I could spin up my own note-taking server. (Please don't suggest alternatives; I've probably tried them all.) To "preserve privacy" and promote "local first", I had to download an app and rely on a closed-source backend to do something I could trivially accomplish on my own. If my platform doesn't support the app, no notes, unless I rely on the increasingly unmaintained web "demo" that does exactly 100% of what I need from the service, despite dozens of features missing compared to the app version.
But the kicker is that I cannot install things on my work computer. At all. Not portable apps, nothing. I will get a phone call from infosec if I even try, because we are a heavily regulated company. So if I have a bright idea at work, a thought I want to preserve, find a good article, etc., I have to go to another device. I have to interrupt my workflow, change my focus completely, and, probably, lose half of what I wanted to capture.
The thing is, I don't think they're data farming. I think they're running a really good project! Users were begging for an app. "When are you going to release an app?" was a common question forever, because a whole generation of dingleberries cannot be bothered to go to a website that does the same thing, faster, and better than any app.
- I'm still going to mention Zettlr and you can't stop me.
  Though it doesn't have mobile apps and you'd have to use your own method of syncing the files, so not really what you'd need anyway.
  There really isn't a lot of FOSS apps than can replace Obsidian, while also being local-first and usable without an account, is there?
  
  Logseq is really, really close. It's basically a page I can start writing on, forcing minimal organization through bullets but otherwise freeform. Backlinking, plugins (meh), plain markdown. It's just so good. It doesn't require me to do anything other than write. It used to be entirely browser-based, syncing through a github repository. They could have released a self-hostable version of that and I would have been over the moon. Or, alternately, a self-hostable version with non-local storage so I could store my notes on a notes server I control. But they went with the app + sync service route. Understandable but sad.
  So I just rolled my own sync through a git server and it works fine (other than iOS, which requires a maddening setup, but that's not logseq's fault).
  I looked at Zettlr once or twice (thank you for mentioning it). Obsidian makes me crazy with all the UI fiddly bits and configuration. I tried. Oh how I tried. But it just didn't work with my brain. (It's the exact same reaction I have to KDE -- there's just TOO MUCH and it sets me off in unproductive directions, and that's not a criticism of either project as such.)

Need an account just to use my new gaming console. Another account to play Diablo IV. I bought the goddamned console and game. I had to sign into an app for the console. Why can't I just play the game? The Samsung display that I got for the console (I have a projector, so I needed something for daytime use) is a "smart" display. That wanted me to create an account with an app on my phone. I just woke up, so if I rambled, oh well.
I think we're at the point where everything will suck to the greatest degree from now on. There's no room left for business not to suck (Amazon ads on Prime unless you pay more, as an example). Goodbye anything that isn't terrible.
- Tip on TVs: look for signage TVs. Much better possibility of them not being smart TVs.
  
  If you do buy a smart TV, yanking the network connection and use a Pi to drive the TV connected to a media server. And use OTA antenna.
- In a functional society we would see the government regulate enshitification and protect consumers, but at least in the US, we are not seeing that. Only hope is that the EU can curb this trend somehow and the world follows suit

And related, if your hardware product requires me to create Yet Another Account just to plug it into my computer and have it work, I'm returning it.

I opened a bank account at Bank of America. Apparently it was just a matter of course to make people install the BOA app before opening an account. I practically had to fist fight them to get them to drop it. It was like they got commissions for every app install or something. Scary, honestly.
At least I learned from the experience that "I actually don't have the Play Store on my phone" isn't a good way to get them to drop it. I guess next time I get hard sold on an app, I'll go the "I'll decline the app, thanks" route. We'll see whether that works or not.
- I wonder if "oh I'm using some Nokia dumb phone" would have gotten them to stop
  
  I figured "my phone's weird and I don't have the Play Store and can't really install the app" would do it, but it really really didn't.
  Two different people pressured me to install the app. Both pressured me hard to show them (not at the same time, one after the other) that I didn't have the Play Store. (And, yeah, I should have walked out before it got that far, but I'm not proud to admit I didn't.)
  The second one pressured me hard to go to such-and-such URL and download the BOA app in a way that didn't require the Play Store. (Honestly, I was an extremely late adopter of smart phones. I didn't and still don't really fully know my way around them. And didn't know you could just download an APK via a browser and install it. To be fair, I guess I still don't know that for sure, because it didn't work when this guy got me to do it.)
  After that didn't work I was like "it's not like BOA doesn't have a web app, right?" and hevery disapprovingly told me "but you know the web app isn't secure." I can't say I've been literally shocked speechless many times in my life, but this was is one of them. (This was after I told him I'm a software engineer by trade. In fact, I'm a web developer and I'm the web application security guy on my team. Ha!)
  I think "it won't work on my phone" made these folks go into tech support mode. That surprised me. I figured they'd be fairly tech inept and not really want to get into a whole technical discussion. Which is why I'm thinking "I'd rather have a buffalo take a diarrhea dump in my ear than install your app" might bypass the "tech support" conversation to the distainful lecturing one.
  
  How about a "I don't trust your app"
  And then when they persist, go to the store and ask them for each permission why the app needs it.
  
  This is what I told my employer’s IT system. They have an app for non-standard 2fa that I had no interest in configuring so now I just get phone calls.
- Not surprised; BOA is the fucking Taco Bell of banking. The only one worse that I can think of is Wells Fargo.
  
  Was gonna argue with you till you mentioned Wells (and I've had both Boa and Wells).
  Screw banks, just left Wells for a credit union. Much better experience, saves me $500/year from the start.

I went to join Planet Fitness, they insist on an app. They watched me leave. Kroger charged more than advertised, ooooh it was a digital coupon only available through the app. I left the item with the cashier. Order out? Only on an app? I guess I didn't want to eat that so much anyway.
Edit to add: I don't know how we are going to deal with apps that are forced upon you, that feels really gross especially if you are younger, like at your school. Forced commodification should be illegal.
Not going to do it, it feels controlling and abusive and I've worked too damn hard to let that shit go on.

This won't help in the above case so it's a little off topic. But I got rid of Twitter on my phone and still use Twitter on my phone - Basically you just open twitter.com in Firefox, and go to the menu and click "Install". Now you get a launcher icon to an "app" but it's just the website hosted by the browser.
Instantly saves 150Mb, stops it doing evil shit and because it's hosted in Firefox I get to block all the ads.
I would advise doing this with any app which has a desktop / mobile version and see what happens - Facebook, Reddit, LinkedIn etc. Some social media sites will nag you to install the app but some won't or will be functional in spite of it.
- Hey that's interesting. I haven't used Firefox on iphone for a while because I didn't think it was possible to add a blocker. Is that now possible? If so, which one do you use?
  
  I believe you can't because Firefox on iOS is re-skinned Safari
- I'm using firefox on android as well, but i cannot find the "install" option anywhere, could you point me in the right direction?
- I'd still go a step further and use a more privacy respecting frontend where possible. Not all of them will allow the use of an account though, so if interacting with the content is important to you, then those are obviously not an option.
- OMG fokng genius. Tqq mate for the tip. I'm using it for google news

Reminds me of the Always Sunny ep where Dennis tries to get a bubble tea
- Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
  Always Sunny ep where Dennis tries to get a bubble tea
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
  
  How Ironic I click the piped link. It throws a can't play error and asks me to download the app. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
- Dennis: ...it's not yout fault. You didn't create the system... we're both victims here.
  Bubble Tea Kid: What?
- Or the Paddy's Wagon where he screams at the two guys to use their app when they just want to buy two beers.

I had to download an app to pay a bill recently. What the fuck is that about?
- I would just refuse to pay unless they gave me an actual invoice.
  
  most places make you choose the position.
  at least a gentleman does..
- Paper statement and electronic bill pay it is!
- what sort of bill?
  
  Medical bill.

Sounds very hackable. Have you considered getting a degree in information security and penetration testing? All you have to do is hack all the systems to give you free lunches and access your neighbor’s laundry and anything else you can think of. Then write a thesis about how you spent several years messing around with the world around you. It’s science if you write it down.
- Jesus, that's brilliant.

Large parts of the City of Toronto bike share—public infrastructure—requires such an app. Taxpayers without an iphone or android computer can't access the services they already paid for.
- actually toronto bike share has a card too, I don't know if can be used for single trips, but you can request one.
- so does bike sharing in my city (Warsaw, Poland), but you can alternatively call a hotline and rent via dialer menu or simply by talking to a consultant.

i want to go to a restaurant and get a physical menu, instead of having to dl an app using a QR code.
- My favorite is when the QR code just points to their website, and you still have to choose a location, scroll through several pages of bullshit to find a menu, and select from a list of special menus to find the right one.
  That's IF you can get the QR code to even work, because it's been sitting on a table for 3 years and has long since passed the point of usability.
- yeah, dining out is a pure luxury, especially these days; i want to feel the paper and see the typesetting and take in the whole thing at once, not scroll thru 3 items at a time on a shitty pdf that doesn't render quite right, on my fucking phone, like i do everything else
- Oh so much this!!! I hate having to use their QR codes. I was told that using most new QR through our phones give these sites using them, access to our recent photos on the camera app.. I have a two year old I don't want people looking at whom I don't know...
  
  It absolutely does not give them access to anything unless you install their app.
  QR codes are okay. They may be an annoyance, but they're not nefarious or harvesting your data. (Again, unless you provide that data in another way, such as an app.)
  The website may ask for your location, but the browser will prompt you for that. If you're at the restaurant it's fine to hit "only this time".

Does the uni not cater to older people who don't have a phone? They probably have old systems in place for them if you insist to them you don't have a phone.
- This. Squeeky wheel gets the oil

Just put my oldest child in school this year and I had to download FOUR apps. Four fucking apps. Why? This could have been a Progressive Web App and a push notification service. There is no need for this.
- Have you considered refunding the child?
- I think a lot of the time for universities it's cause they're not building their own custom tools for this stuff, just using off the shelf solutions that they can implement locally. So they just grab one app or system for each different thing they need instead of building one connected one.
  
  Yeah I'm a programmer at a community college and this is like us. Although we don't have any apps, we have different web apps that we use. My current job is trying to use the APIs for each of them to try and build cards in one central web app that bring in the functionality from the other web apps to minimize the amount of time you spend going from web app to web app
- PWAs still lock you into the Chrome ecosystem since Firefox doesn't support them (without plugins and pain).
  
  Firefox for Android does support them fully, it's just desktop Firefox that doesn't have pwa support.
  
  Safari supports them.
- You often can use web apps (of sorts). Most of those apps mirror the functionality of an already existing mobile web page. Then you just make a little web app container of that mobile site.
- Progressive web apps don't work for shit on ios. Why bother developing it for Android users only when you'll need an alternative regardless?

I remember when no one had an app. 2011ish, only fucking banks made Android apps since corps were still unsure if Android (or the other competing standard app stores) were going to be worth their effort to develop.
I remember reading the permissions required by apps on install and committing to mobile web browsing if I was on my phone...and this was before most companies even understood every consumer had walking geolocation in their unknowing pockets suddenly.
- And this is why I root. Then I can control perms on a granular level.
  Even better now that Magisk supports modules, and has things like LXposed, which provides very good perms control.
  Next phone will be mostly Google-free just for these reasons.

i was looking for a new toothbrush yesterday... they have app enabled toothbrushes. bluetooth. why the fuck do i need an app to brush my fucking teeth?

Anyone with any power or any product is going to milk every single penny they can out of every single interaction they have. There are no ethics in business. No one cares about your privacy, and they only care about laws if they think they'll lose money by breaking them. Otherwise, these laws don't exist for them because they get in the way of more money.
We're a world where the biggest fucking cunts also have the biggest market share of our culture.
- "No one cares about laws"... Well, getting caught at least, lol. They couldn't give a shit otherwise.
  Even then, the fines are generally so small it's just an operating expense.

I took an old phone and fully reset it to use for all these shitware apps. I've looked into buying an anonymous SIM card so it won't be at all connected to me, but the underlying assumption seems to be if you want that you must be a drug dealer. Best I've found is mysudo, which requires payment, but it's really not much, and only stores the minimum on their side. Gives you an anonymous email and phone number. The other problem with all these apps is the engineers are given at best half the time they need to do a good job, so they're always buggy, insecure, and have a shitty UI. But some project manager managed to show Impact and get a bonus.

Reminds me of the episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia where they pick up people in the "Paddy's Wagon" and Dennis forces them to use a painfully overblown app just to buy a couple of beers. It seems to have cooled off a bit but the rush for every little business to have its own app reminds me how every pizzeria and dry cleaner felt the need to have a website and social media presence.
I have 3 goddamn parking apps I have to keep on my phone, each with its own account, just so I can park in various cities when I travel. I'm sure my data is 100% secure too...

All these forced cloud applications annoy the living shit out of me as well.

This idea actually turned me off using Sync for Lemmy or other apps that have their own ad injection capability, as you have to pay to turn off ads but the ad tracking payload is still baked into the app, so is it really off or is it on but not showing the ads that it is still tracking data for in the first place?
- Same here. I ended up using C9nnect for Lemmy as it doesn't collect any data.
- Agree, but other options are punished. Back in the early days of Reddit Sync, he made a Reddit Sync Pro app that never had ads at all, but Google punishes duplicate apps. So there's not really a good alternative option due to the ecosystem.
- Is it otherwise free? People seem to hate ads but love using free stuff.
  
  Does Lemmy.world have ads? Cuz thats the free stuff I'm using, a front end glorified RSS feeder is a stretch to allow even more ad tracking.

Swiss Post did that too, you used to be able to buy "stamps" (well codes you would write on the envelope serving the same function as stamps) over plain old SMS. They they stopped that since they have that new whatever service. That service works on a PC browser, but on the phone browser the function is not available, no there you need the app. For fucking no reason at all.
- Just a thought, but have you tried requesting the desktop site from your mobile browser? I've had luck with a few websites that have missing features on their mobile pages.
  
  I tried that but it didn't get me around it, I don't remember if the site just didn't respect the browser request or if it was unnavigable...
  
  It's so easy to forget that setting exists.
- Swiss post is the worst... Abusing the state monopoly given to them to push their shitty login platform for EVERYTHING.
  I bet this platform is as safe as all the rest...
- the SMS stamp was really really great
  that said i'm pretty sure the Post doesn't harvest your Data
  
  Just assume everybody harvests your data. There’s no way to prove that they’re not liars and just doing it anyway.
  There are several examples of companies and government agencies that have been caught doing things and retaining data they shouldn’t - only after a breach released all the info.
  Home Depot wasn’t supposed to store credit cards but they did it anyway in violation of PCI, for example.
  
  Everyone that doesn't have the brains to institute good security harvests your data. It's just for someone else that they're doing it.

I'm about to suggest another app for you to install. :p
If you're using an android phone (I don't know if it exist on iOS) install the DuckDuckGo app. It has a feature called "App Tracking Protection". It is supposed to block all trackers. I think it works as one of the games i have installed on my phone takes about a minute longer to load, compared to without the tracking protection. I think this is the next best course of action (apart from not installing / using the required apps).
- To add to that, if you just want this form of tracking protection without the browser that comes with it, the app Tracker Control does exactly the same.
  
  Good to know. I also make use of the free Duck.com redirecting email address so the DDG app is nice to have. Besides, you can never have too many browsers ;p

It really makes me sad more of these services haven't embraced PWAs. Being able to run your app protected by uBlock origin is truly the best of both worlds.

Seriously email your IT and/or privacy team at the university level. I work at a university and that would be removed ASAP for sharing PII. If you're in the US or UK it's a major violation of your privacy. Unfortunately most IT offices aren't involved in many of the decisions and many of the people making those decisions are complete ignorant to the situation.

Are you using apple or android? If you are using android check out adguard. It runs a local VPN and filters that shit out. I've actually had to white list some apps like geico because it broke them and they weren't using (as far as I can tell) any fb or other data collection trackers.
- Then why are you bitching about this? If you are already blocking the trackers, why the need for this post?
- While this is the recommended way for us tech savvy people to block trackers, it still doesn't change this enshitification shift with data harvesting apps.
  
  Not arguing that. I'm simply providing an option for those situations where you have no choice. Your other option may be to buy an old pixel or something and use it only for those apps that you can't not use.
  And as far as tech savvy? No, even the tech unsavvy to install it and set it up. Adguard isn't pihole, you don't have to run your own server, it does all of the work and if you can manage to browse tiktok or Twitter, you can use the app to white list any apps that need it to function properly.
  I have seen maybe 10 ads in the past decade between adguard, noscript, etc. The times I've seen ads has been because I had to turn off adguard for a reason or forgot that I had a specific browser whitelisted for a reason.
- Trackercontrol is also pretty nice

My response to this is that I refuse to use apps like that. For example, the only app I have on my phone is a OSM+ (maps). (As well as core basics: clock, contacts, camera, phone app, etc.).
I've never once scanned a QR code, I don't have any phone apps that require an account for anything whatsoever.
...
And I can say that as time goes on, I feel more and more like I'm in the minority. I'm seeing restaurants where you are meant to order with a phone; and I'm seeing people paying for stuff with their phone; and during covid contract-tracing times, there were a lot of different things that assumed the use of a phone... I just hope that there are enough people in the world with values similar to mine such my life doesn't get harder due to phone apps being required for more and more things.
- The argument I keep seeing against fast food being too expensive is "use the app! It's cheaper". Fuck that. I bought frozen junk food and an air fryer. McDonald's can keep their 15$ meals*
  *Disclaimer that I don't actually know how much a meal is these days, but I know it's gone way up. Also, I do still buy from McD when I need to shit out a hangover. Sue me.
  
  I'm old enough to remember when you could get a McD's meal for £6. These days, on the rare occasions I go there for me and my wife, I'm looking at around £25. It's shocking how much more expensive it is.

I went to Buffalo Wild Wings the other day and they tried to have me download an app to pay my bill. I almost had my first Karen moment when I saw that.

Is there not an app that can partition these apps that we are made to download. So the companies are happy that they are installed. But they have no real access to your real data. The app could feed it fake info when requests are made.
But when you have the app actually open maybe give it real GPS access as they are store specific on most of their apps.
- So…an advertiser hell sandbox
- I know there is Island for Android, but I don't think it can isolate much without root. Jailbroken iOS users also have Crane
- of course there is.

I work on the enterprise apps team at my university. We'd dump that so hard you'd think we were using it to get liftoff. Definitely complain. Also, it's not inclusive to students without smart devices (they exist!).
If they do still have the option for manual use (with ID card scanners), there are a number of membership card / ID card wallets that are free on most platforms. You can just type the barcode into the app, and it'll make a virtual card that can be scanned. Same convenience, no physical plastic. If you're not offended by Google products, Google Wallet works pretty well. Or Stocard, but I'm not sure what level of tracking they implement. Granted, you're still installing an app, but you get to pick your poison a bit, instead of being railroaded into Facebook shenanigans.

As a musician, I have to maintain an artist account on all the major social media platforms. It’s frustrating that a lot of features for posting only exist on their respective mobile apps instead of making them available on the web version where I have all of them neatly arranged in tabs on my laptop browser. Instead, I had to install all their apps on an extra phone (because I don’t want those things on my primary personal phone). Not to mention how hard it is to edit content on a tiny phone screen instead of a full browser window on a laptop.
- All the big ones (fb, instagram, twitter, youtube). They all have their own pains on web. For example, you can’t schedule posts on instagram on its own. Profile editing is also limited. You also can’t create reels on both fb and IG, although at least Meta’s business suite allows you to post standard photos and vids on both platforms simultaneously. You can’t create shorts on youtube web too. Twitter is absolutely basic, and I can’t say much about the app because I refuse to install it even on my extra phone. Besides, it’s not really intuitive for posting anything other than links, static photos, and standard videos, and most musicians are more active on IG now.
  Thanks for the interest! I do a different genre on every release so there are genre tags for each album. Just pick your preference :)
- Maybe an Android Emulator can at least help with the tiny screen problem.
  More isolation without the need of an extra phone.
- In addition to the emulator someone mentioned, you might want to try scrcpy, which lets you control and view your phone on your computer. No root needed and easier to use than an emulator.

They put Bluetooth in our apartment complex laundromat and if you don't have a smart phone or Internet service on your phone, you don't do laundry.
- That type of shit needs to beade 100% illegal! I'd absolutely stage a riot in the complex laundromat if I were living there!
  
  As with most property management companies, they'll just tell you, "Hey if you don't like it, move". I think they may have put a small blurb in the apartment complex newsletter a month prior but nobody reads those. Also, I had just upgraded to a phone that had mobile data, otherwise, I could not have used the machines because they no longer had coin slots and the app must connect to the Internet to use it. I also had a large bowl of quarters left over that I ended up using at the car wash... Which will soon be cashless also.

If you're feeling angry, there's an app for that :-)
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.calm.android

It took me a a couple of years and 3 phones before I started using Graphene OS as intended without many extra apps at all. Doing everything in vanadium without any stalkerware is far better. After nearly a year of heavy daily use, the battery still lasts two days on a charge with a decent margin of battery left by day two.
If you ever take a deep dive into the AOSP user permissions space and learn how it achieve an idiot-user "safe" environment, you'll see why everyone wants their own stalkerware user app for data mining. In a nutshell, the app dev is similar to a Linux user within their app's sandbox. They have as much or more privileges than the user in that space. Additionally the zygote launcher automatically loads most apps into memory all the time on Android to supposedly save init response time. In practice, it is a fraction of a second and completely irrelevant on human time. It's just an excuse to run stalkerware 24/7 IMO

All I can say it's the fault of marketing and the statement of "we want more information from our users, but we don't know exactly know what information to collect, so we collect everything possible in hopes to see some connection and predict what the user wants". I wish companies would actually ask the user what they want. Do users want to use their phone? Cool, make a nfc enabled card that can be added to the phone's wallets, and give users a portal to manage their funds if needed, no more app needed.

Honestly its fucking annoying literally had to make several user profiles just for my work life and my other invasive activities

I also hate apps which request for unnecessary permissions. I have a dashcam which has an app to view the recorded videos. The app requires bluetooth as well as gps location info. Bluetooth is understandable but I don't see the need for GPS. Unfortunately for me I can't seem to get mock locations working properly on my phone. It also refuses to work if i do not give it location permission. :(
- For locating the camera with BLE. Needs to see relative location, only possible with location permission. Turn it off after pairing.
  
  "Nearby devices" permission has been created for this very thing.
  
  If I turn it off after pairing, it'll refuse to connect the next time.
- This is actually how Android used to handle pairing with BT devices. As I understand this has been adressed in Android 12 and now giving permission to pair with an exterior device does not mean giving location to the app.

One potential solution is to use an old phone and keep accounts/apps that you HAVE to deal with solely on that device. Dont use the device for anything else. Use it only on wifi. Keep it at home.
- ~~Keep it at home~~
  Keep it turned off.

I use the work profile via Insular/Island, and certain apps I don't like but do want I put in there, and freeze whenever not in use.