No sex. No dating. No marriage. No children. Interest grows in 4B movement to swear off men
In the days after Donald Trump was elected president, a South Korean feminist movement is capturing young women’s interest on social media.
Opposition to transgender rights movements
The 4B movement predominantly sees transgender rights movements as incompatible with feminism.[10] Developing out of transgender-exclusionary radical feminism (T.E.R.F.), the movement holds to gender-critical views on sex and gender,[10] supporting gender essentialism and the exclusion of transgender women from feminist spaces.[12][14] Advocates of 4B are opposed to what they call "gender ideology" (젠더론x) and promote excluding transgender women from feminist spaces, as well as romantic or sexual relationships with them (트젠 안사요).[10] In South Korea, members of the 4B have created gatherings exclusively for what they call "biological females" and "real women".[10]
yikes
The changelog shows that this section has been added sometime between Oct 30 (last version before Nov) and today. Some possibilities:
Either way, I do not think this should be a point to discredit the movement. It at minimum does not seem related to the US movement and IMO is likely some clever FUD attempt to undermine the movement before it gets traction.
Also none of the sources linked there mention anything about trans women.
Just be aware that people might be into 4B for the purpose of man-hating. A lot of times man-hating extends to transphobia.
The ideological basis is strong.
Ffs, you can do 4b without being transphobic.
Just because some 4b assholes with a website have written a transphobic clause in their manifesto, doesn't mean they speak for all 4b followers.
Stop shitting all over this movement because you've found somebody in it with an awful take on an unrelated matter.
Not having sex or relationships with folk who can impregnate you is sensible when your country is about to ban abortion and restrict contraceptive access.
I had not heard of this movement before today. Forgive me if my first instinct is to read their Wikipedia, and be off-put by various descriptions of transphobic stances. I agree with the stated goals, and @nimble@lemmy.blahaj.zone pointed out that the article might have been manipulated to paint them in a bad light.
If that's the case, then I hope the article gets corrected with proper sources soon, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. But I don't like that you're insinuating that trans issues, and transphobia in particular, are unrelated to feminism.
I wish everyone earnestly resisting attempts to limit bodily autonomy strength and success in their endeavors.
I mean, we kind of act like the worst men speak for the entire gender. These people can choose to be 4B
And I am saying this as someone who thinks if the entire male population of the US dropped dead on Nov 4 the world would be a better place.
The 4B movement predominantly sees transgender rights movements as incompatible with feminism
Interesting, that his since been deleted from the Wikipedia article.
Really? I still see it, under "Beliefs"
The American version need not be TERF though. It is not an inherent part of what 4B actually entails and is extraneous to the purpose of 4B.
Women hate women.
I highly doubt many people are doing this.
Media hyped bullshit.
its getting a lot of press because it will upset a lot of dumbfucks
But the internet told me a lot of people are doing it. But since you were the last statement I read, it is now my point of view until I stumble upon another comment.
Many people are doing this.
I'm sure that a few, very dedicated, women are doing this.
It's unlikely to be widespread. Sex is one of the most powerful drives humans have. We generally have a terrible track record of trying to convince people to avoid or even delay sex. Even when people believe that their eternal soul is on the line they keep having sex. That's exactly why all the "abstinence only" policies fails so spectacularly.
There are cases where voluntarily giving up something important has led to change. Hunger strikes are the prime example of this. They can have the affect of drawing attention to a matter and raising sympathy.
I disagree. The modern sexual revolution was only possible due to modern contraception and access to abortion. Did pre-maritial flings happen in the past? Of course. But casual sex was nothing like it is now. It was treated as the rare shameful exception. It was not the norm for people to openly date and publicly announce their sexual relationships for years prior to marriage. (Viewing from a Western perspective of course.)
So if you start taking away abortion and contraception? Why wouldn't you expect sexual norms to return to their earlier state? Pregnancy is incredibly disruptive, dangerous, and expensive.
In Trump's America, sex means pregnancy, and pregnancy means childbirth. In Trump's America, a straight women does not have sex unless she is prepared to be a mother, and her partner is prepared to be a father.
Will flings still happen? Sure. I expect we'll also see a commiserate rise in shotgun marriages.
I agree that 4B, as an organized movement, likely won't have much direct impact. But the general attack on contraceptives and reproductive healthcare absolutely will see a rollback of the sexual attitudes that have developed in the post-1960s world. Sex just has a lot more consequences to it now than it used to. We're going back to a world where you really can't afford to have sex with someone unless you're prepared to marry them and raise children together. Casual hookups on Tinder are not a practical thing in Trump's America.
Sorry guys, you voted for this.
Noone is doing it.
And we can check birthrates a year later to prove it.
There's a classic greek play, Lysistrata, that tells a tale of women refusing sex to get the men to end a war. It is notably a fictional account.
Essentially the reference resonates most with college educated (white) women.
You could try reading the article first.
I find nothing wrong with this movement, but at the same time I almost feel like this movement is exactly what "government's" may want. Less educated individuals having children means more uneducated voters in the long run.
Kind of like that scene in Idiocracy (2006).
I thought the idea of the US version was just to avoid republicans.
It's not like women turned out in droves for Harris either. Who's going to withhold from the women that dropped the ball?
You don’t need to. I’ve run the numbers elsewhere but if we assume 100% of your dating pool are women and 50%-ish are liberal, even if only half of them participate it’s going to put pressure on men very quickly if they don’t want to be alone.
Now we know those women aren’t spread equally so this movement isn’t going to be consistently effective everywhere. But in places like Texas, it would mean most of the major cities harm Republican men seeking relationships/sex.
And taken one step further, this creates a child shortage if done for long enough. Even just 10% of women deciding not to have kids will have a big effect. People worry about conservatives just having more kids but realistically they work lower end jobs and don’t have money for that. Imagine raising 3-4 kids in this economy, not many will do that.
This is eugenics propaganda. It is slightly hidden in a way of not using the blatant language of "superiority" and forcing it on people, but the base idea boils down to breeding traits such as higher intelligence into (or out of in this case) people like what is done (was attempted) with animals. This is eugenics. Please do not spread eugenics.
Eugenics does not work. There's a lot of information on the topic, but here's a 10-minute primer: https://youtu.be/kMBriCmiTu0
TL;DW Studies show genetics plays a very minor role in intelligence in humans with socioeconomic factors being the main driver. Eugenics may be able to breed certain traits in/out, but that results in the extreme detriment of others. Consider dog breeding and all the health issues breeds have who were bred for a handful of specific tasks/traits.
Honestly I think that only works if society keeps progressing in any form for a generational time scale. Women protecting themselves and enjoying the time left. Seems like a valid course of action as anything else.
What that would really mean is an erosion of the tax base and possibly a demographic crisis.
But I seriously doubt that the population of femcels female volcels is getting larger as much as it is getting louder and coping in a way that makes a good headline.
By definition, any woman choosing not to have sex due to state-imposed pregnancy risk is not a 'femcel.'
Incel means involuntarily celebrate. Women CHOOSING to not have sex is voluntary and it’s disgusting trying to compare them to the incel movement.
When Idiocracy no longer is a comedy movie but an instruction manual...
Always thought that would happen with 1984, not with that movie.
This country is fucked. We can't breed our way out of it, and trying is gross.
That's why this form of protest is ineffective. I want to see what the 'but gaza' people think in a few months.
Just don't date conservative men. First date, ask them their politics. It's literally that simple.
You should really have a suite of questions to weed out partners you don't want. This is what the first few dates are really for. Ask them their politics, if they voted, and who they voted for, their stance on abortion etc.
All you're going to get with this is friendly fire. Conservatives generally do not prefer leftist women.
As a man this is spot on. My old roommate "presented" as a neoliberal hippy with wood-bead bracelets, but would literally talk about how he wanted slaves so he didn't have to work. Some men are literally closeted Republicans that know if they are honest they will be sexless
Get yourselves a socialist, ladies. Neoliberals are just spineless republicans
First of all, you'll be able to get their vibe from a political conversation unless they're very well informed and very intelligent, which conservatives generally are not.
Second, if you're forcing them to lie then it creates cognitive dissonance in their brain. So at the very least that can create genuine progress, as problematic as that may be.
Source: Pretty much every episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia (and, of course, real life)
They can't keep up that sort of lie for too long without the mask slipping. So it's a good idea to require a fair amount of together time before considering being intimate.
Especially the people who would be worth avoiding wouldn't have the patience and feel very entitled, so they are less likely to stick around for an early dating period.
Personally right wing chicks are a no go for me so if you're not openly atheistic (at least in spirit) and socially progressive and futurist and mega smart super nerd into PhD level autism I probably won't even bother, it'll never work. I'm also not looking for company so...
If you don't want children, the risk is the same.
I feel like the only ones doing this are the perpetually online echochamber sorts. The female equivalent to the wannabe alpha male losers.
Most women living in reality, even the furthest left feminists aren't doing this shit, at least not intentionally as part of some movement. This whole article is just propaganda and rage bait to get clicks and drive ad revenue.
I think it might be a bit like antinatalism, where a lot of people simply haven't heard of it (or have heard stupid shit about it and discounted it), but have come to the same conclusions independently and just haven't felt the need to seek out likeminded comunities or be vocal about it to others.
All 17 of the American women participating in this movement downvoted you
It's okay even I downvote me sometimes when I feel sad.
The only thing I can take a way from your comment is you are calling women who take control of their own bodies and are public about it are losers.
Your second paragraph might be partially correct, but still you are calling women who want to publicly fight to keep their human rights losers...
You are calling people who try to keep their rights losers.
Anything I can extrapolate outside that would be speculation, but you get where my thoughts are going regarding you.
Anyone dumping in an entire sex, race, religion into the same bucket IS a loser.
Women, just like men, should pick and chose mates they are attracted to and share values with. If that means it'll naturally filter out magats, all the better.
But depriving yourself of human connections because an orange clown won an election is only hurting yourself. I guarantee you that Trump doesn't give a shit who or if you date.
The 4B movement does have some issues with transphobia from what I've heard, so hopefully with more people joining, it'll make it better.
"some issues" is a bit of an understatement
I'm not aware of the history of this movement. Could you please provide some context? I want to push against reactionary undertones I might come across
First line describes it as gender critical... Then if you scroll down under the beliefs section is a section titled "Opposition to transgender rights movements"
I'm really hoping the American version of 4B stays far away from that.
As someone above mentioned, that line was added after october 30, so it’s questionable how true this is.
And America doesn’t have to adopt any transphobic parts of the movement anyway.
It's just an idea voiced in some places online, that makes for a good headline, and will get lots of people active to comment and complain.
Which is exactly the way to spread it to more people. What is your point?
That it's a pretty niche movement and not sure the purpose of it? What are the women doing associating with men they plan to practice this 4B celibacy with?
I don't know if it will drum up supporters, or rile or people who get riled to professionally. This seems like it's just going to drum up conservative talking heads.
That being said I definitely sympathize with women and I understand that they have to do something to get help.
So MGOW for women.
It's just more social media posturing. Making a spectacle out of something people have been doing out of necessity.
Look at me, I've turned isolation and alienation into a consumer fetish! Subscribe and learn all the amazing new techniques to commodify your labor and spend your wages. Compete to become the highest ranked lonely person!
Yeah, I don't think this is any kind of broad movement. Might be a good excuse to turn a guy down without making him feel it's about him.
🤣 lmao. Mgtow for women - exactly.
Vote for hate. Get no love.
MAGA is a promotional tour for lesbianism and sex toys. Toxic masculinity does not attract women and never did.
53% of white women voted for Trump, and they aren't going to join 4B. "Men" didn't elect Trump, a slight majority of America did. When you point a finger, three are pointing back...
22% of Americans voted for Trump. 78% did not. I can tell you I voted and was offered to answer none of those questions from that site. So I'm going to say none of them represent all of the voters if you don't actually ask all of the voters.
Just for the sake of more information: 337m Percentage over 18 ~78% That makes about 262m voters possible. 74m vote for Trump makes 28-29% of possible votes in 2024 81m votes for Biden in 2020, population was around 331m then. About 31-32% of the possibilible votes.
Point being, people need to vote. Making voting easier makes it possible to ensure you get a more complete tally of what people want in a democracy. People shouldn't have to jump through hoops to say they won't be in town, and will be working or w.e else to convince someone that a mail in ballot is wanted.
Should have a request a ballot button online as well. Why mail a form in to have the forms sent to you. Gets rid of some waste there too.
Is manly man == toxic masculinity ?
No, and the fact that we have to explain this every time someone talks about it is why I hate the phrase "toxic masculinity"
"Toxic masculinity" doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic any more than "rotten fruit" means all fruit is rotten
no. Toxic masculinity is just being a shitty person, simple as.
No, only when they're dicks about it.
Here's a 30 minute introduction by hbomberguy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8dfiDeJeDU
Get back to me when you have methods to test, data collection from a large sample size, and positive results all published in a peer reviewed medical journal.
(very obviously, but people keep covering this like it's a real thing so...)
You get 100% or even like, 60% of women in on this, yeah. Things will change real quick. I'd hope for the better.
If you get like 5-10% of liberal women doing this, which is by far the most that I'd believe, what's going to happen is the corresponding 5-10% of men get sexually frustrated. Then they'll go online and get caught up in all the incel->alt-right pipelines that already exist today, and men will swing further right.
If we want a movement like this to work it needs to 1. Not punish people who are already on our side and 2. Provide a better pipeline than the alt-right already has for channeling sexual frustration into action.
So cool, interesting idea, I wish it was workable but remember that a majority of women who voted voted for Trump. Even if men didn't exist he would have won.
So ... to shower other progressives with love so pure it makes the incels want to join the movement? I honestly think love's the way to go. Leave the hate for the far right, and show the world the beauty that caring and kindness can achieve.
Oh, and no knock on anyone doing this for their own safety. That's entirely reasonable. I just don't expect and you shouldn't expect it to have a positive political impact.
The problem is that for many women, sex always runs the risk of pregnancy, and they are actively making it extremely dangerous for us to be pregnant. I can't get a hysterectomy because insurance won't cover it, but I'm not ready to give up on kids yet either. Sure my husband can get a vasectomy but the risk is still there.
I support the 4b movement in theory but when I tried to join I was told I couldn't, because I'm married to a man. Nevermind that he's also a feminist and willing to go without sex for 4 years because he is so scared of losing me to a pregnancy related complication. I was told I can be an ally, and when I took issue with being benched in the fight for my own rights (by people who are not in charge of the movement or the interpretation of its goals,) two different people jumped down my throat.
I bowed out before the argument could escalate, but I can see now how even with the best intentions this movement may further divide women, and the men and non-binary folks who support them. Ideally the 4b's would be like a protest "menu" of actions you can take to drive the point home. Yes, even to the good men who don't deserve to be "punished." Because it's not a punishment. It's us saying okay, either you don't respect us or you're just not willing to fight for us unless things are uncomfortable for you, so let's make them uncomfortable for you. No more free labor, physical or emotional. No more customer service voice. No more explaining things that you can figure out on your own. No cooking or cleaning unless it's for us. Oh you usually change all the diapers? How nice. Now you can do that, and bathtime, make breakfast and dinner, pack lunches, plan birthday parties, buy all the Christmas gifts, host and cook Thanksgiving dinner, do the dishes, keep the house organized and pleasant to live in... you get the drill.
If you're already the one who does these things in your relationship, good for you! But most adult men don't, not because they're bad people but because they weren't socialized to be people pleasing servants and/or sex objects like most women have been.
I'm in support of just a general women's strike, but that's going to look different for everyone.
I support the 4b movement in theory but when I tried to join I was told I couldn’t, because I’m married to a man.
This is why, when I mention 4B in more general contexts I also talk about "birthstriking". My partner supports 4B as an ally but isn't a participant because she isn't going to leave me to make a statement. I also consider myself to be an ally of the movement, even though I'm a hetero man in a relationship with a woman. I'm a loudmouth far left / socialist. And I've also had a vasectomy to at least keep that 4th "B" out of the equation.
We live in a blue stronghold state that protects women's rights, but if things get clamped down here we may decide to take additional precautions.
The problem is that for many women, sex always runs the risk of pregnancy, and they are actively making it extremely dangerous for us to be pregnant.
so then don't have sex because it's not economically or financially tenable. Not because "men are the scum of the earth"
There's nothing wrong with a principled opinion, there's everything wrong with a pointed attack founded on shaky grounds.
The left really fucking sucks at rhetoric, that's one thing i've noticed.
Shrug. I understand if women have had it with things.
Though like you said, I think it makes sense for the message if they actually opt to be even MORE sexually active, but only active with men they've pre-screened, politically speaking. I know this was already a trend in general, but they should broadcast it even more: maga jerks can sleep alone.
What?
Actions have effects and reactions. I think the same sort of thing would happen if that 10% of women just didn't exist instead of becoming intentionally partnerless for 4b.
I'm not saying it's women's fault. I'm not saying that this is the good or right thing to do on the part of men. I'm saying that this movement is flawed because it would punish the wrong people and because it would push those people's politics in the wrong direction.
However this is going to have that effect Regardless of our opinion it will put a few more men towards alt right.
These women's response is totally logical but will have the opposite effect.
but women get to blame men the other way around? Or are we not blaming anybody and i'm just not following.
I don't keep up with this shit lol.
I feel like you can do exactly that when the women we're talking about actively attempt to get men sexually frustrated
Like, that's the goal of this movement, no matter how Lemmy users try to co-opt it as something else. If you're avoiding sex with men as a preventative protective measure, more power to you
Is there some underlying assertion here that woman enjoy sex less than dudes? Or that sex is some kind of favor to men on the part of women without mutual enjoyment? Not having sex with someone is pretty easy if that other person is a shitty person. Otherwise I think both genders enjoy genuine intimacy and physical contact by someone they enjoy being around.
It's a reference to an old Greek comedy called Lysistrata from 411 B.C. The gag was, in order to end the Peloponnesian war (460 B.C.), women colluded to refuse sex until the men come to their senses and stop the war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata
Sex strikes have been used more recently as well to end gang conflicts, wars, and other violence.
It's a protest of how in today's society, even if sex has exactly the same pro's, the cons fall much more heavily on women.
They don't say it's not without personal sacrifice.
i think there is very real fear women have to take into account whenever considering getting involved with any man. you don't really know if he is a shitty person until you have invested some time into him, and that has its own costs. the risk of getting impregnated, ditched, and stuck with the bill is just too big. these days.. even more so. i think this is a very natural outcome in the face of the rampant misogyny (in the case of S Korea) or revocation of reproductive rights (USA)
As a straight white male, I support this movement.
Same.
O don't know what should be done about us. I hate that my race and gender the worst things on the planetet.
Wait so the idea is do not sleep with any men? Even men who support your views and rights? This just seems like it would radicalize more incels or generate more sexism. Like the average person who did everything they could is going to go on a date and be told "I'm not have sex until the government is fixed" which would make me say "ok, well, hit me up in 4 years."
The idea isn't for women who are already in relationships with partners who support women's rights. The idea is more, for single women, to refuse to start any relationship at all right now. Which honestly, in an era where basic women's healthcare is under attack, maybe starting a relationship right now isn't the best idea. Will your women's rights-supporting boyfriend agree to become abstinent when the birth control you're using is taken off the market due to conservatives? Or will they want to move to the pull-out method or just accept the risk of being pregnant?
If you're a single woman, honestly, right now, maybe staying single through these next four years isn't a bad idea. It has nothing to do with the actions or beliefs of a potential partner, and everything with the fact that being a woman in any straight sexual relationship when conservatives are ascendant simply has a lot of unavoidable risks with it. The religious crazies in power believe that the only veto a woman deserves over being pregnant is the choice to have sex or not. And they seek to take away any way for women to prevent getting pregnant besides not having sex. These Christian nationalists, who were just elected, believe that the only choice women have should be pregnancy risk or abstinence.
You need to have a reality check here. The United States federal government, and the majority of state governments, will be telling every woman of reproductive age, "be abstinent or risk pregnancy. Any other tool to prevent pregnancy is morally wrong."
The government is literally trying to coerce women not to have sex before marriage. The government is literally trying to coerce women not to have sex before they're ready to become a mothers. The people soon to be in charge of the government literally believe that the only just use of sex is pregnancy. And they rule accordingly.
In what universe would you expect this to not result in a complete collapse of pre-marital sexual opportunities for straight men? It's not about punishing men. It's not that you do or do not have the right views or beliefs, or that you are a good or bad person. It's simply that for women, in this world that is being created, having sex before marriage simply isn't safe.
Sexual liberation was possible only due to the availability of effective contraception, birth control, and abortion. If you turn the contraceptive landscape back a century, sexual norms will have to return there as well. You are NOT going to have a world where there's no access to contraceptives where women are still perfectly happy being in sexual relationships before marriage.
Men, I hope you're ready to put a ring on it. Otherwise, you ain't gettin' any. Sorry, you wanted this world; you voted for it.
So this is where we are now? All men wanted this? All men voted for this?
What next level bs is that. I did not vote for this. And if this is the blanket us vs. them that women are espousing then sexism is only going to get much worse. I did not vote for this, but people like you are starting a gender war for no reason. You are breeding sexism.
I need a reality check? The irony. You need to understand that a majority of women voted for this and not all men did. Women like you seem so ready to hate these days. If women keep attacking anyone and everyone because of what a small section of that group did they'll have no allies very soon.
But sure, encourage all women to not be in a relationship. Encourage another form of isolation for women who may find great happiness in having a partner.
So much resentment and vile in your response. You're so ready to have a war to fight, you don't much care who it's against. How much your approach to problems lines up with MAGA is uncanny.
Sorry, you wanted this world; you voted for it.
You seem to be unaware or are forgetting that the majority of white women wanted it too. The exit poll stats show the majority of people across the board in about every demographic "wanted this world"; it was a massive defeat for the vestiges of the American political left.
The Trump campaign successfully set up their media machine to equate every environmental protection, women's autonomy protection, labor protection, and re-enfranchisement policy proposal of the working class to a talking point of a screeching radical feminist harpy cartoon character that's "bent on destroying the patriarchy, churches, and America".
The DNC handwaved the concerns of the working class away again to fellate the billionaire and corporate donors, the "moderate" republicans, and the social justice warriors simultaneously, thinking that would work somehow.
The blame lies on the us if we let the DNC establishment keep their jobs in the next round of primaries.
Will your women's rights-supporting boyfriend agree to become abstinent when the birth control you're using is taken off the market due to conservatives?
I will bet you $100 that zero birth control products get taken off the market because of conservatives. This is so far out there it’s nuts.
Do you really think this is going to happen?
I mean, it isnt like it is the job of women to sleep with men in order to prevent them from becoming incels, that would be essentially like victim blaming at a population level. Im also not really sure that it would do much: most women arent going to do this, so the impact on average men's dating prospects is much smaller than the total lack of dating for any women that actually go through with it, but nobody is seriously suggesting that doing so will turn them into something akin to incels.
I dont expect this would really help much, beyond the obvious personal benefit that not becoming pregnant in a state that is hostile to women's reproductive health would have, but incels were going to hate and complain about women regardless of the sexual habits of those women, so I dont see it really making things worse in that regard either.
I can't believe someone, here on Lemmy, is actually defending women punishing all men because some are trash. It would be like if white women said they weren't going to date black men because some black men are rapist. They are free to do what they want, but it's racist as fuck. Just like this is misandrist as fuck.
Never once said it was their job to sleep with men. I'm saying this will cause more sexism and isolation. What does this accomplish? Think of a woman wanting a connection, going on a date, and telling him she won't sleep with him. That's not a relationship most would be interested in. This will result in her isolating herself.
Thinking that an entire group of women refusing to be in relationships because of what some men did is just hurting them and snubbing people who are allies. I am all for women's rights, I even got a vasectomy so my partner feels more comfortable and worries less. But if I were dating and ran into people like this it would put a bad taste in my mouth. I just don't see the point.
Ah yes, the obvious personal benefit of not getting pregnant. Of course.
This is what it feels like. I would get not engaging with Republicans, but just not in general seems like a way to isolate you and hurt your cause.
Ignoring every other part of this movement, the 'no children' bit is a question of safety.
Even where the laws aren't dystopian nightmare shit, and you have a healthcare team on standby to provide the best care they can without needing to worry about legal fuckery, pregnancy and delivery can still kill you cuz that shit is insanely brutal.
Disallow that team from intervening when there's a miscarriage or some other complication and the mortality rate skyrockets, as seen in red states post-Roe.
That's about to be the whole country soon. Ladies, if you do get pregnant, have a plan, and a backup plan, and a backup-backup plan etc with where to go and what to do if shit even even starts to feel like it's hitting the fan.
...also if you don't already have a passport, now might be a good time.
If I were in your shoes, I'd be scheduling a hysterectomy ASAP. And remember your doc isn't going to do a background check or anything, so if they start giving you the shit about "nooo you're too young, you might regret it later!" just remember that your uterus is causing you 10/10 pain, and it makes it almost impossible to accomplish any normal tasks, and even starting to cause suicidal ideation; also you already have 4 kids with 3 dads and feel like you've lost control of your life, etc... probably not all at once or they'll know you're bullshitting, but the point is denying women's healthcare is a problem that goes way beyond abortion, and if lying is what you need to do to receive care, then don't hesitate to do it.
Good luck everyone. This situation is absolute shit.
Am I missing something or is 4B essentially MGTOW for women?
Just viewed through a more positive lens specifically because it's women.
MGTOW is mostly men who can't get laid. These women could get laid. Not the same.
It’s more a reaction to the policies that make relationships and pregnancy dangerous. Why settle down when you could be one of the 1/5 natural miscarriages and potentially go into septic shock or blow a fallopian tube?
You'll have to ask all women of all time up to a few days ago
It actually has historic precedent. Women have been using lack of sex and companionship with men for lots of issues they championed from suffrage to even early prohibition.
It's not just a counter culture of issues with dating but a protest. I think that makes it a bit different really.
Erik the Red converted to Christianity because his wife refused to have sex with him until he did.
MGTOW is a right wing misogynistic movement. 4B isn't hating anyone like MGTOW is
So, we have a group of men looking at the state of the world (and in particular law/society on gender issues) and deciding they are just going to opt out of the whole relationships/marriage/children thing and swear off women. Is there any world in which that would not be described as misogynistic by default? The swearing off itself is seen as misogyny before you go even a step further.
But this proves my point - that it's women swearing off men rather than the reverse causes it to be viewed more positively.
Exactly that
I got the letters wrong. I accidentally joined the 4H Club
You're missing the part where MGTOW is because no woman wants to fuck them. 4B is also because no women want to fuck them. Men's wants have nothing to do with why they get no sex.
MGTOW is an anti-feminist movement, which means it's based in the idea that women shouldn't be equal to men.
This movement is based in the idea that women should be equal to men. So it's different.
an anti-feminist movement, which means it’s based in the idea that women shouldn’t be equal to men.
Ever hear a saying to the effect of liking Christianity if it weren't for the the Christians ruining it? As in that the ideals are fine on paper and in theory (love thy neighbor, care for the less fortunate, etc, etc), but in practice the adherents don't really do them as such?
The same applies to feminism - in theory the idea is gender equality, but in practice it often isn't.
I've been around long enough to remember when the standard feminist response to question about what should be done about male victims of abuse or sexual assault done by women was to dismiss them as not existing.
I remember a man opening the first men's DV shelter in Canada (Men's Alternative Safe Housing) and being denied funding because it wasn't a women's shelter until he could no longer keep it afloat from private donations and out of pocket funds so he had to close it and hanged himself in the garage. He left a left a four-page suicide note, condemning the government for failing to recognize male victims of domestic abuse and wrote that that he hoped his death would bring more awareness to the issue of male abuse. I wonder what ideology permeates domestic abuse services, again?
I remember big and loud feminist protests at the University of Toronto against checks notes a talk about suicide in men given by a former member of the New York board of the National Organization For Women (who he left when they opposed more equal child custody). If you've ever seen the "Big Red" memes with the red haired angry shouty feminist, they were inspired by a real person who was at this protest shouting a Jezebel article at the crowd and calling anyone who tried to engage with her "fuckface". The group hosting the talk (CAFE) would go on to create another men's shelter which still exists and is to my knowledge the only one in Canada.
Speaking of Jezebel, I remember them writing an article casually joking about the times they've been violent with their male significant others, including in one case hitting her boyfriend because he was worried he might have cancer.
I remember listening to a recording of a radio show on Soundcloud 9 years ago where Mary Koss (prominent sexual assault researcher - nearly all research on campus sexual assault in the US descends from her work, she's the source of that 1-in-4 number that gets thrown around sometimes, and she coined the term "date rape" among others) was asked about male victims of female perpetrators and her response was to ask how that would even happen, how could a woman make a man have sex by force, threat of force or by incapacitating him? (I'd give you an exact quote but SoundCloud isn't playing nice ATM, not sure if it's the site or my adblocker- either way it's close to her phrasing but I'm going from memory, the episode is Male Rape from You Were Here on WERS) and when given an example of a man being drugged into compliance declared that that wasn't rape, it was just "unwanted contact." You see, "rape" needs to be reserved for girls and women because men don't feel violation or shame like real people women do.
Or when KY wanted to pass a law requiring family court judges operate from a rebuttable presumption of equal custody in contested child custody cases - that is that both parents having equal custody is what's best for the child unless there's a good reason for it to be otherwise. Out comes the feminist opposition and trying to align any supporters of it with domestic abusers.
And I could keep going like this for a while if I really wanted to, but probably 9/10 readers stopped several paragraphs ago.
Just remember that reversing the procedure is not a guarantee, should you think you will change your mind later. Other options are more flexible and also protect from things other than pregnancy, which are also undesirable outcomes.
Other options are more flexible and also protect from things other than pregnancy, which are also undesirable outcomes.
Are you talking about condoms? Because those aren't nearly as effective. Hardly comparable to a vasectomy. I recommend everyone who wants to have sex with someone who could get pregnant to get a vaseceomy.
I've got an even better one. Do something more interesting, go make friends. Sex is boring and just something evolution tries to force upon us. Well ofc it'll work eventually but that's not the point. 😂
Hey man you being asexual is cool and all but most people aren't so can you not
Trump is such a loser that even when he wins, it makes every woman in the world stop being horny.
This is dumb
I get but i feel bad for anyone falling into this mind trap
Is it no sex for anti abortionists or for everyone? Can we still marry and have sex with pro choice good guys?
From what I understand, it's not about abstaining from men because there aren't any good men. It's about abstaining to protect themselves when they live under an administration that denies them reproductive freedom.
The Korean 4B movement is for everyone. It probably makes more sense in Korea, but I'm not sure what the point of applying it in the US is.
The context in the USA is very different - getting pregnant is a massive risk for women and without even the ability to terminate for clinical reasons (otherwise the risk of successful intervention is jail) it is just unsafe to try
The Korean 4B movement is for everyone.
No it's not, it excludes transgender (talk about double-standards) , and it's a very radical movement. Absolutely not something that is for everyone.
It's ironic they complain about men not supporting rights for women, and then they oppress a minority group themselves.
Your level of adherence, like your body, is your choice.
Then only the plaint, complicit, conservative types will breed, and pass on their values to their youth. Not sure its a good thing, nor an effective form of protest in the long term.
Then again, after this election I'm not sure what to think any more.
Definitely stop thinking this problem will be solved by out-breeding another ideology.
It won't be solved that way because we won't out-breed them regardless. They sacrifice happy lives to be baby factories for Jesus. But it will make a difference.
Lmao some women can have all these things without a man in her life.
Not procreating has always been a natural phenomenon in collapsing species. We just have more words about it because we think, therefore we think we're special.
Ha! In a century or two it will be the Taliban v the Mormons for supremacy of what's left of earth.
They can fucking have it
(it's odd that PBS is promoting this, as it is actually a terf movement)
terf
transgender-exclusionary radical feminism
From the article:
Young women don’t want to be intimate with men who don’t fight for women’s rights; it’s showing they don’t respect us.
The people complaining about intolerance are themselves intolerant.
The people complaining about intolerance are themselves intolerant.
Umm, yes. That's the point.
Not from the article, and yet quite relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4B_movement#Opposition_to_transgender_rights_movements
Wait till you learn about SERFs
I'm 4B with qualifiers: No sex with anyone on the right, no dating anyone on the right, no marriage with anyone on the right, and no babies for America.
Not all men are evil... There are many of us out there fighting for women's rights. Sorry that so many feel they need to resort to this, I guess I get it though.
Honestly not sure it is going to be that many of them at least after an amount of time has passed
Entirely up to people who they want to sleep with and personally would rather not date someone who paints an entire gender with the same brush anyway
We'd be happy to have more single women in Australia. We allow abortion and even have public health insurance
Just watch out for access to abortion in Australia. It’s recently been under attack in Queensland and South Australia, and those are very much warm-ups for a bigger push. Expect it to become an issue next year as Peter Dutton starts to repeat Trump talking points in his campaigning.
I'm not sure. Dutton might be too busy making more ads for dodge RAM utes (true story, ie, check friendly jordies(
It's idiocracy. Life imitating art?
I really can't emphasize this enough. Look into all the nuances of gun ownership. Nothing crazy, just a handgun. There's a lot to it to be safe and responsible, and it is not for everyone, but look into it. That's all. Then decide. Looking into it also involves knowing your local law and what could happen to you if you fire it. Look into pepper spray, local and state law, but honestly, backsplash happens. Inhaling a lungful of that shit while trying to flee isn't going to help. Tazers. Again, local regulation, state regulation, sometimes they are different.
4b does not stop "your body, my choice" individuals claiming to be men.
I understand the your body my choice rhetoric is incredibly volatile, but it doesnt automatically mean its coming from a substantial group of men across the country.
A news article about something doesnt mean its widespread or representative of men in general.
Ofc not, neither are men who rape, and yet here we are. In addition, here we are back to Reddit (that didn’t take long) with “not all men” in regard to anything potentially dangerous for women where men are involved, thus minimizing the greater problem in the name of stating something we all know as truth already. No one is talking about you or any man not involved in this behavior, why would you think they are? They’re only talking about men who say “your body, my choice”. By inserting yourself into that narrative regarding the bad “your body, my choice” men narrative, you derail it to talk about yourself instead of the problem at hand. If you’re not that guy, not saying or typing that phrase in earnest, then no one is referencing you.
I don’t even think rapists are men, they’re more akin to rabid dogs, but saying dogs in that context would just confuse the topic.
I've been celibate for a long time now. This wont affect me at all while clearly emasculating those that I loath. So go for it ladies but be aware they look at you like you are a object. So be aware that some of them think its their right to defile you.
Wow, thanks for letting us know, we had no idea! /s
The more you know and knowing is half the battle. /s
Conservatives don’t want women to sleep around and have casual sex. So they make abortion illegal. In protest women stop having sex. Conservatives get exactly the outcome they wanted.
The Korean 4B movement is TERF on top.
conservative leadership want women to be popping out babies as fast as they can, without regards to their own well being. That is all the top cares about. The global population growth is slowing, many places, and demographics, have either plateaued, or are in decline. This is bad news for capitalism. Like it is fundamental that both the cheap labor underclass, and the consumer class, continue to expand.
While there is anti-sexual free expression talk in the movement, once you get into the inter-personal level, especially of the followers, they only want that freedom to be the choice of men. They want to fuck as many women as possible, they want women to fuck them at their demand, no matter the relationship status, without any plans to continue with that woman in the future. They want to both hit up tinder, or the bar, or whatever, see a woman, go up to them, and get casual sex from them, without being turned down, and the barefoot, and pregnant, home maker, wife, in the house.
The bottom line is, they want women to be anything they want, when they want, without resistance. They want to OWN them, own them all. They yearn for the years of a "surplus population", withering in work houses, and the ability to own other people, for labor, for sex, for anything they want. If something they do does not violate the ethics of "I can, and will, exercise power, over others", then they don't see it as hypocrisy. Whatever morals, or ethics, they claim, mean nothing, unless their proclamations means to gain, and exercise, power over others.
TL;DR
They want people to be "cheap".
Hard to have value when there is plenty to go around and you can just take what you want for free.
Except within the USA, declining population growth could be reversed immediately simply by returning to our pre-1924 immigration laws (i.e. the Ellis Island era) that between 1890 - 1924 allowed the USA to have some of the largest economic growth it ever has done. Yet "conservatives" (better termed "regressives" or "reactionaries") these days want to do the exact opposite, out of xenophobia.
Date who you want. Do what you think is best. But it's weird that abortion is so often posited as a gender question when race is a better predictor. If white women stop voting for Republicans all of our rights would be safe.
Talk to your mothers and aunts, the rest of us can't outvote them yet.
More to the point, if progressive women stop having children, we're going to have a generation of little conservative dipshits.
From what i heard, what if you just dont date assholes? You dont have to stop dating entirely just dont date a man heil hitlering or some shit. Date people whos views align with yours whether i agree with them or no.
From what i heard, what if you just dont date assholes?
They are intolerant assholes themselves, so I don't think the date is the issue.
They complain that men do not support women rights. But they themselves discriminate against LGBT.
So there you are, double standard assholes, will always have an asshole with them on a date, but the asshole is themself.
While I enjoy sex it is often an inverse proportion to the effort.
I've been living that lifestyle for the past checks notes all my life. I'll give them about 2 years before they want to off themselves.
I volunteered for this lifestyle after trying dating post divorce. I'd rather cut a leg off and swim with sharks than date nowadays. And bringing CHILDREN into this meat grinder? Hard pass.
White liberals women are going volcel until the Conservatives change their ways!
I'm going ahead and this dismissing this out of hand. It's not a thing outside of there curiosity articles and niche circles that have sort of read a bout the SCUM-manifest and so on.
Bold of them to imagine they’ll keep the right to withhold consent in the new regime.
Most the women who voted for Trump don't know marital rape is a thing. Probably never even heard those two words in the same sentence.
As a dude that hasn't been in a relationship in years and never been in a serious relationship, I 100% support this. I am ashamed to be a gen Z male. Everyone who voted for Trump is going to get exactly what they voted for. Even if you don't care about weed or abortion Trump's tariffs are going to cause calamity of biblical proportion. Maybe your rich friends with high end corporate jobs will get a bonus though.
I hope men suffer from being barred from sex and dating, and not just the low quality losers like me.
At least we "owned the libs" all right by voting for morons who will rob us of what freedoms we have left and then cause the second great depression though. I hope it was worth it.
Hardcore Trump fans will still fuck and procreate. I don't consider sex abstinence a viable long-term strategy.
...wut
Apply this protest over generational periods of time, we end up in a world with way more people from the population that didn’t choose to abstain from procreation. All the assholes in charge have to do is maintain power for a generation or two and the population will be way more submissive over all
Angry people should be having angry babies
Lysistrata 2.0
The hilarious new sequel - in theatres now.
In the sense that it only works in fiction
Increase immigration to offset the people not having kids. Canada has increased immigration a lot and whole there are some hiccups it's going good.
Can't we make a society people want to live and procreate in instead of slapping a sticking plaster on a civilisation that doesn't want to go on anymore?
You can, but it would mean changing everything, including yourself and what you personally believe in.
ok so. I like the concept, it's a good way to move.
HOWEVER there is one big problem. We can't use this emotionally inflammatory rhetoric, because it's what the right thrives on. You can quote me on this later, but i guarantee you if the right sees this they will call it "sexual eugenics" or something stupid.
literally all you have to do to make this a fully marketable and unbeatable position is to treat it like econ 101. Social interaction is most often based on simple contractual obligations. Those in question here, have failed, and thus, it is no longer contractually valid.
"the market for sex is simply untenable culturally, and in terms of healthcare, completely fucked. I no longer plan on having casual sex anytime soon" and suddenly it's like 50x more reasonable and palatable than the previous statement.
and before anybody tells me "oh well it's good for attention and marketing" yeah, if you want to spread the entirely wrong message. just look at the bear vs man debacle that happened a while ago.
although you have to be careful because the right will probably just tell you that this is the point, at least the religious part of it, in which case being inflammatory isn't going to do shit anyway. Tough times we live in now, i guess.
Americans value the speed and simplicity of a message over accuracy or nuance.
Both parties used that to their advantage to post out of context clips, something that I would consider manipulative at best.
Americans value the speed and simplicity of a message over accuracy or nuance.
idiots who do not prefer the accuracy of transmission* FTFY
something that I would consider manipulative at best.
i really wish more people would do literally anything to not get got by this low level bullshit lmao. It's so silly that people care so much about problems, but so little about information sources, or accuracy, or even factual nature.
We can’t use this emotionally inflammatory rhetoric, because it’s what the right thrives on.
The right will make up its own inflammatory fantasies if there are none, just like it makes up stories about immigrants eating pets. It happens either way. Stop letting them control your strategies, it's EXTREMELY UNWISE.
yeah but the problem here is twofold, if we do it ourselves, they will accuse us of being what they say we are. If we do not, they will make up their own, and pretend like it's happening.
It's the anti fascist problem. If you're anti fascist, you're just fascist against fascism. There is no way to combat fascism without more fascism.
There isn't a good solution here, unfortunately.
This is a childish and illogical response to what’s been happening. The 4B movement isn’t practical to achieve its desired affects.
A better approach is for white women to have more interracial relationships. It drives the right wing voting base insane when you do that. Black or Chinese men create the most seethe and butthurt.
This way, women still get to have sex, form loving relationships, have children, and not suffer from the consequences of 4B.
I feel like interracial kids probably grow up more tolerant as well; and from a purely evolution/science standpoint don't we want a lot of genetic vsriety so the strongest genes are passed on to our decendents?
I gotta say... white women demographic was not good, maybe time for all good men to unite and swear off them
Man or woman, to stop fucking Republicans, stop fucking Republicans.
However, seeing that there's plenty of young man and young women who votes MAGA so might not be a viable strategy unfortunately.
it didn't work in South Korea. have you seen incel forums? they're fueled by their imagined persecution by women. this will only solidify their positions.
South Korea has as a staggeringly low birth rate, well below the replacement rate. Even if it doesn’t change the minds of men today, in the long run it will help shape the population in significant says.
Been around the world and found
<br>
That only stupid people are breeding<br>
The cretins cloning and feeding<br>
And I don't even own a TVIf progressive women have even less children, I don't think you'll like the direction
Ah yes, more rules.
I want more options to autonomously choose, not more rules. Also we already had this several times, sex-negative feminism, straight edge etc.
This is reactionary.
That's how you do it.
Good, overpopulation is a problem anyway, people volunteering not to have children seems pretty helpful for that. Same with mgtow
Till they replace them with easily controllable migrants
Overpopulation is not a problem
Correct. Seems like as a country gets more developed the birth rate falls. Weird you're getting down voted as a lot of countries are about to face a population crisis as young people aren't having enough kids.
Estimates vary, but we're expected to reach "peak human" around 2070 or 2080, at which point there will be between 9.4 billion and 10.4 billion people on the planet. It may be a slow process – if we reach 10.4 billion, the UN expects the population to remain at this level for two decades – but eventually after this the population is projected to decline.
Good, maybe when birth rates drop they'll panic and codify women's rights into law.
Also preferably the Equal Rights Amendment
Your body your choice. I'm just glad less wage slaves will be born. Having children while understanding how this world works is child abuse.
"Here is $2,500 a month in living expenses, thanks for the dopamine and serotonin sucker!"
I don't get a dog and kick it out after whatever amount of dog years is 18 and say "good luck!". Why is it okay for a human?
That was expected to happen. And it will lead to radicalization of various movements, with frustrated men or women.
I'm somewhere between cis male and Ace. My dream girl would be all about this lol I'm so conflicted.
Still don't get the point of swearing off men entirely instead of just targeting misogynists
Misogynists can pretend to be nice until a dependence is built up. A story as old as humans.
Its a growing danger for women so i absolutely can understand this movement.
This is why I advocate the mass shunning of men who refuse to be friends with women.
they aren't misogynists, they're just manipulative people.
Idk why everyone is so obsessed with definitions and words these days. A misogynists hates women. An abuser pretends they like them, and then abuses them, manipulating them all the while.
