Promised Land

fun fact.
The US army gave people ammunition for free if it was used to kill bison for a period of time.
Bison almost went extinct.
Bison were a source of food for the natives.
I love american history!
- Every 50 bison they killed they celebrated a bisontennial.
  
  Bye son
  
  Boooo!
  
  this is awfull (of bones)
  i tried, i'm not sorry
- The official reason was the Bison herds were capable of destroying the fields of entire farms. We never stopped to ask if we should have been farming there in the first place.
  
  I think they did stop to ask, and the answer they gave themselves was "yes".
  
  were bison known for like, destroying fences or something? Or did we just not think of building fences lmao.
- Correlation, causation, too many big words.
  
  Killing off the Buffalo, which was a source of food, clothing and other vital cultural resources for many indigenous cultures, was an official government policy to destroy those cultures. Couple more words; ecocide, genocide.
  
  history goes a little wacky
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#
  
  Which word was to big for you?

It’s just greed. They throw in god’s name to relieve themselves of any personal responsibility.
- They also throw in God's name to get the religious rubes on board.

Ok. Native here. Get out, both of you.
- If I thought some other place would take me, I would.
  
  The number of "100% native" people in the U.S. is likely 0. The idea of people leaving if they weren't from here goes back forever, everywhere. Eventually it's just a debate of if we are all from Africa or not.
  "Go back to being a neanderthal dweeb!"
  ... Sadly, acceptance and growth are harder than resentment. And most of the time we resent the wrong people.
- Go back to Ireland/Scotland? Sure. I need to bring news of what fun things Americans can do with potatoes back to the homeland anyways.
  
  Potato cannon = good times
- Nah. We'll just continue to dry wash our hands and apologize while doing nothing useful.
  Sorry 'bout stealin' your shit. Want it back? Fuck you. Have some empty words.
- god I wish
- There are no natives playa, unless you are an amoeba

Reminds me of this.
- It's kind of disingenuous.
  It portrays Orthodox Jewishness as being responsible for genocidal Zionism when Orthodox Jewishness has pretty much always been vehemently critical of both Zionism and the creation of Israel.
  The Jewish Zionists that perpetrated the Nakba looked no different than their fellow Europeans.
  
  Not really the main crux of the video, is it?
- that was a fun watch
  
  then watch this
  
  I mean it was a very good video. But fun, I don't know.
- Beat me to it, great recommendation

I think at this stage we can just call manifest destiny "Americanism."
- I am kind of annoyed by the ismnisms lately.
  
  We're sick and tired of your ism and schism game
  Bob Marley
  
  You haven't heard them all though until you've heard of Maggotyismnism.
  
  I'm not.
- Stay in school, friend. This was done countless times well before America became a nation.
  
  Consider your apologetics rejected.

I've met a guy who no shit said this to me as if it was a justification for Israel's actions in Gaza.
- Anyone mentioning the phrase "3000" years ago is saying it. The Zionist movement is less than 150 years old. The rest of that history is made up.

The notion of a "promised land" is a lie humans tell to themselves to monopolise the resources we all share with all living things.
- It also doesn't make much sense in the particular context considering on a genetic level Palestinians are as Semitic as modern Ashkenazi jews. And it doesn't make much sense from a religious stand point because modern Judaism differs from ancient Judaism by about the same amount as Christianity or Islam does. Modern Judaism just has this dogma that Ancient Judaism was secretly observing their form of it even though if we don't take them at their word there isn't a lot of evidence of that.
  So from a religious standpoint it doesn't make a lot of sense. And from an ethnic standpoint it makes even less sense.
  And also we don't let Europeans say "these are our ethnic lands" without calling them racist. So then why would we let people who are like 2% ethnic ancient jewish retroactively claim ethnic ownership of some land without calling them racist? They will claim it's not about race and about religion. Ok, which is worse, a group of highly militant ethno-nationalists, or a group of highly militant theo-nationalists? Zionists are always one of two bad things and they will use arguments to play wackamole about which one to deflect the claims of one. Apparently if you are two bad things at once and it is unclear if you are both or just one of those things you get unlimited license to be both of those bad things.

So, if they kill in the name of God, why aren't we calling them "terrorists" by now like we do with any other religious group, i.e. muslims ... or ... mhhhm... or.. wait... do we call anyone else terrorists, besides muslims?

https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY

So dominant (heart) :)

This comic would have been just as effective--and less insulting--had they not included the explanation at the top; the graphic gets the point across just fine.

As someone who's been referred to on here as a "Christian fundamentalist", I struggle to see the theological justification for either of these events. Although I probably don't have much to say in regards to these Jews as it's a different religion, but I don't understand why some Christians are obsessed with Israel and specifically these Jews having it.
- Because the Christian apocalypse requires the foundation of Israel. The Christian side is basically participating in an apocalypse cult, whether they realize it or not.
  I speculate that the reason the GOP is so supportive of Trump is because they believe he's the literal Antichrist and they think that getting him reelected will bring about the end of days. I don't have the link on me (though someone else might), but I remember reading an article by a Christian scholar or something about how Trump nailed every possible prophecy about the Antichrist that he could, either in a literal or metaphorical sense, during his presidency. Now, I personally thought some of them were stretching it, but it was still a bit freaky and made me consider the possibility that the GOP actually believes something like that.
  The funny/sad part is that if they truly are correct (I highly doubt it, but ehhh...), then that means they'll be fucked alongside Trump due to their support of him. As far as I can remember, the Bible doesn't give amnesty to the Antichrist's supporters just because they believed they were "helping god"; if anything I think I remember the Bible saying the opposite (don't try and force God's hand or you'll eventually face his wrath).
  (No, I'm not a Christian, but I still find it fascinating and mildly concerning)
  
  oh wow, accerationism but for apocalypse. antichrist accelerationism
  
  Wait till you hear about the religious Jews trying to genetically engineer the prophesied calf.
  
  This is probably the blog post you're thinking of
  
  That is deep. I think bringing about the Antichrist is just... Absolutely wrong.
- why some Christians are obsessed with Israel
  I'd say that Zionism is a Christian idea, but that would be false. It's a "western" idea that orginated among English upper-class Christians that was utterly antisemitic - the idea that Jewish people will always be an "other" in the white, oops, I meant to say "western," world and essentially "must go back where they came from."
  Right-wing Jewish people picked up this idea from there. Zionism has never been an exclusively "Jewish" thing and it has always been fundamentally antisemitic - that's why you can even see neo-nazis singing Israel's praises.
  
  That's very interesting - I never thought of it as being anti-semetic, but it makes a bit of sense. As a Christian and from a theological standpoint, I don't see how a bunch of people descended from the ones who rejected Jesus forming a new country which they call "Israel" should be interpreted as being the same as the Biblical Israel. For all they care, they see us as heretics. Why should we see them as different from the likes of Muslims, cultural (but not) christians, atheists, etc. (Also before you think I'm saying we should hate these groups, I'm not, I actually kind of mean the opposite). I believe the temple's destruction in AD 70 and the construction of the Dome on the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque 600 year's later is an intentional thing about the old covenant being gone. I just don't see why "christian zionism" is even a thing when the Bible is interpreted as a whole.

Who are you trying to convince to do what, exactly?
- I'd hope its to convince the government of Israel to get rid of corrupt leader Netanyahu, and to work towards an equitable two state peace agreement with an independent Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza.
  Or failing that, to convince people that unconditional support of the current Israeli government is bad, actually. Something many Israeli themselves believe (not to mention non-Israeli Jews).
  
  I feel like comparing murderers to other murderers wont swing any moderates to your side, but idk. If anything, making memes about genocide seems pretty dehumanizing.

The situation isn’t comparable. The majority of Jews in Israel are not European (or from anywhere else), they’re native Israeli and they trace their roots to Israel back for millennia.
The problem is not that Israelis want to live there. They have a right to live there. The problem is that they’re depriving Palestinians of their right to live there instead of seeking peaceful coexistence.
- Pretty sure modern Israel was founded by western powers as a place to send Jews after WWII.
  
  Herzl played his part.
  
  Arab counties shipped Jews to Palestine after they decided to kick them out of their own countries.
  Where are the Jews supposed to go?
  
  Any sources
- We [as in entire human population] can all convert to Judaism but it won't ever change our ancestry. It's just a religion.

This is dumb propaganda on so many levels. Zionism isn’t a religious movement. Israelis are not primarily white. This equation is just dumb af
- It does however paint what IS the same.
- Three statements and all of them wrong that's impressive.

Linkerbaan, where are you yourself from?
- Why is that relevant?
- it's all in the name
- He's a Trump fanboy from the US who gets his kicks masquerading as a far-left liberal.
  
  Based on what?
  
  The OP? What's that based on? All their posts are just critical of Israel
  That said, given how lemmy works, there's no real recourse anyway. This is a good, funny post, so I'll upvote it. Since upvote points aren't tracked there's nothing we can really do to tell bad actors apart from people that actually contribute to communities/discussions. If it mattered, I'd maybe downvote but it doesn't since every post they make ends up being treated individually by the community (unless you track usernames or something and I personally don't pay for that feature)
  You'd have to comment on all their posts if you wanted it to stick, and then if it's not obvious like here, you'd have to provide reasoning each time. I don't get it but most people really didn't like points being added up for some reason
  
  Note how there’s been no answer?
  
  If the only things I knew about them was Trump-fanboyism, spends free time accusing the USA of various genocides, and masquerading as a far-left then I would assume he was a regular Chinese Tankie long before I accused them of being an American.
- I’m guessing some red state where they pay people to spread propaganda.
  
  Yeah, who would pay people to spread propaganda
  Netanyahu’s War on TruthIsrael’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians
  
  If its a red state they probably expect the people to pay to spread their propaganda for them.

Palestinians aren't natives. they migrated at the same time as everyone else, 1 million people in 10 years.
- Yep, it was the only habitable parcel of land in the world with zero inhabitants until 1832. Jewish people and Palestinians both saw this weird chunk of land and realized they could just move there since no one else was there.
  
  that's exactly what happened... 1 million Arabs migrated in less than 10 years. whatever population was there before them was completely out numbered by the Arabs. the migration was 30x the increase seen at the same time the "baby boomers" were booming. that's 30x population count, not 30x the percentage.

Well, except Europeans never lived in America before Columbus, but Jews did live in Palestine/ Middle East
- Which hardly matters when people are taking the homes of people living there currently and killing them. What difference does it make if some of someone's ancestors centuries ago lived in that general part of the world?
  You could justify European colonialism in Africa under similar logic, on the grounds that since humans evolved there before spreading out to the rest of the world, all Europeans have ancestors that lived on that continent at some point in the past and would merely be "reclaiming" it.
  
  Although wouldn't kicking the Jews out of Palestine be doing exactly the same thing all over again?
- Some did, but the whole point of Israel was a place for European countries to send their Jewish populations.
  People who even if they were also ethnically Semitic, were descended from people who voluntarily left the area generations ago.
  They could have immigrated there, instead European governments just declared it was theirs now.
  Like, imagine if every American with Irish heritage were granted birthright citizenship there and the people who never left are shoved down into an ever shrinking slice of land. That's what's happening
  
  were descended from people who voluntarily left the area generations ago
  There have been forced deportations from that area for millenia. They're talked about in the Bible and the Romans did it.
- Jews did live in Palestine/ Middle East
  Look up the history of the Beta Israelis / Ethiopian Jews and their treatment in the reconstituted state of Israel.
  Compare that to the treatment of Afrikaner Israeli converts emigrating from South Africa and Russian/Ukrainian Jews fleeing violence in the current Russo-Ukraine War.
  You'll notice one of the groups was targeted for mandatory sterilization and it wasn't the white folks.
  
  I up voted, this has no justification
- The Jewish settlers didn't live in Palestine, they lived in Europe and then moved to Palestine to steal the land. They're white.
  Just because one ancestor a dozen generations ago lived somewhere doesn't mean you have a right to evict the actual people living on that land.
  
  "Israeli Jews are white" - Lmfao I can't believe that people still believe that old racist trope
  
  That thinking is like believing you have the right to expel the people that lives in the house your grandmother lived on but left when she got married. But now the house is yours because "here lived my family".
  
  I don't agree on wording in the first paragraph, but do agree with the second paragraph.
  What now? Evicting all 8 millions of Israeli to make Hamas happy?
  
  Palestinians didn't live in Palestine during that time, either. they migrated when everyone else did.
- Pretty sure Leif Eriksson landed in Vinland before Columbus landed in the Bahamas.
  In other words, I'll be formulating a proposal to Mette-Mink to reclaim what only can belong to the (once) glorious Denmark!
- Now imagine a civil war happens in the US and the only places spared are the Indian reservations. And when the war ends, with the army, the air force, the national guard, ... all destroyed, the Indians start spreading their territory bombing the remnants of the US, with some help from Russia or China or...
  Will you find the Indians have the right to carpet bomb NY or Dallas because they lived there 2 or 3 centuries ago?
  
  I don't think so?
- Jewish people living in Palestine is no fig leaf to justify European genocidal colonialism.
- Jewish people lived next to muslim people in arab countries for a very long time but then ww2 happened and the dumbass americans decided that doing what the nazis wanted to do originally is a good idea so they just kinda said that the european jews should move to this random desert where a lot of middle eastern jews live. You wouldnt deport all the south american, african, asian, etc christians to europe just because of their religion.