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  • Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it's just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it's bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.

    I love The Last Jedi. It twisted ESB just enough not to be a carbon copy, it eliminated a very boring villain in a surprising way, it made the seductive power of the dark side seem almost plausible (one of a smallish number of things The Acolyte actually did pretty well), actually engaged with the prequels in a substantive and respectful way, and left things open ended enough that Episode 9 could have been really interesting. Yoda's appearance and interaction with Luke was amazing. That opening scene with Rose's sister in the bomber was extremely moving for how little we knew, a "tone poem" if you will.

    On the negative side, Finn's arc was too subtly different from his Ep7 arc to make much difference. The logistics of the slow speed chase were a bit strained. We as the audience could have been clued into Holdo earlier than Poe was. The "your mom" joke didn't land. The pacing (and I maintain pretty much only the pacing) of Canto Bight was weak. Then, it could have used a line or two of handwavium at various points to keep the Ackshully's at bay: "The Raddus' navicomputer locked onto the hyperdrive tracker." Boom! Two birds with one stone.

    It was still by far the best of the sequels and I'll live and die on the hill that they're all (yes, even THAT one) easier to watch than the acting and directing shitshow that was the prequels.

    • Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it’s just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it’s bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.

      If it worked for you, more power to you, I don't expect to change anyone's mind on this. But I can't help myself when I see the apologetics for the "Luke ignited his light saber over a bad premonition scene".

      It's not just "bad luck", it's bad writing. Luke didn't just "wail on Vader" to get that "sweet hand vengeance". He initially turned himself in believing he could convert his father back to the light. He only attacked after extreme emotional manipulation from one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, during an active battle to determine the fate of all his friends, all they fought for, and the literal freedom of the Galaxy. That is a far reach from a moment of pure safety where he had a bad premonition and the "threat" was sleeping.

      The whole explanation of this scene (and by extension the plot point that the core of the ST hinges on) assumes Luke not only learned nothing from successfully turning Vader back to the light, but actively learned the opposite lesson.

      I get that people can change over time, and not always for the better, but this is just hands down terrible character writing. Making such drastic changes in such an iconic character, without spending any time developing those changes, having those changes be directly counter to the lessons the character supposedly learned during his primary arc, and then using this unexplained change as the catalyst to the entire ST is awful writing.

      And we are not even touching on his new found love of "THE SACRED TEXTS!", or how he completely gives up and goes hermit mode.

      I'll give Rian credit for actually trying to innovate when it was his turn at bat, but his handling of Luke was honestly some of the most egregious examples of not understanding the characters you are writing, and having them pick up the idiot stick just to move the plot forward.

      • The whole explanation of this scene (and by extension the plot point that the core of the ST hinges on) assumes Luke not only learned nothing from successfully turning Vader back to the light, but actively learned the opposite lesson.

        This really pisses me off and Disney have to carry that shit.

        The jedi of the prequel/originals are wrong about emotions/feelings and Lukes prove then wrong when he saves Anakin. But because of this fuck up writing now Lukes is a dumb removed who got luck in the originals and is doomed to failed like the others jedis. We already saw that in the Boba Fett series when he gives up on Grogu because "too much attachment" come on dude.

      • It’s not just “bad luck”, it’s bad writing. Luke didn’t just “wail on Vader” to get that “sweet hand vengeance”. He initially turned himself in believing he could convert his father back to the light. He only attacked after extreme emotional manipulation from one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, during an active battle to determine the fate of all his friends, all they fought for, and the literal freedom of the Galaxy. That is a far reach from a moment of pure safety where he had a bad premonition and the “threat” was sleeping.

        In both cases, Luke was doing his calm thing, acting how he thought a Jedi should, and trying to do everything the right way. In both cases, the forces of darkness were pushing at him, and in both cases he comes close to giving in to save lives but stops himself. With Ben, or really with Palpatine/Snoke (still hate that this was the direction JJ went in TROS) the fear part only lasts for a moment, but with terrible consequences. Luke had mostly learned. He wasn't the same person, but when confronted with the same pressures he'd struggled in the OT, he had a moment where it came close. I didn't find it out of character at all, just a case of not becoming a magical, perfect person after your period of most intense growth.

        I think there's an argument that we simply shouldn't bring back iconic, archetypal heroes like that, but once the choice is made, it's deeply uninteresting to have to be saints. As a commentary on teaching and aging and how trying to live up to the legacy of the Jedi as he knew them, I thought TLJ Luke was solid.

        The "sacred texts" showed us that he was never truly as disillusioned as he wanted to make out, and that there was still a kid somewhere inside that understood the power of legend and legacy, and it informed his decision to help how he did.

        Different aspects of these movies hit people in different ways, and I'm not really thinking I'll convince many people either, but I'll push back on the notion that it was "just" bad writing. TLJ had a point of view and an agenda, and I came out of it refreshed and optimistic and was genuinely taken aback at the backlash.

      • I think the main issue is that Rian had to cover for the hermit Luke set up in the previous movie, which he did not write.

    • I'm with you 100% on everything you wrote here and I've had this argument with my brother countless times. He blames Rian Johnson for everything bad about the sequels and it's bs.

      Personally I think the biggest thing TLJ suffered from was the split focus between Poe and Finn. It made both stories rushed or weak in various places.

      And for that I blame Disney. Did you know that Poe wasn't even supposed to be a big character? He was supposed to be in the first scene of Ep7 and that's it. But execs saw his performance and insisted they needed his character to play a bigger role. As such, we get attention split between Poe and Finn and both suffer for it.

      I feel awful for John Boyega who was such a massive Star Wars fan, got the role of his dreams, and then effectively got sidelined for a pretty-boy.

    • Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it's just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it's bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.

      If they had chosen to show the dreams, Luke struggling with it for ages and that scene as a last resort failure I could agree with you. Like he wake up everyday and each day he go closer to Kylo's bed, the scene could be awesome. In the movie looks like the little shit Luke became a weak mind Jedi.

    • Agreed on TLJ, it was the only part of the new trilogy that dared do something different. It was quite flawed, but hey, it’s Star Wars.

      People don’t remember how much backlash there was at even Empire Strikes Back! They said the story was incoherent. They even criticized the quintessential “I am your father” plot twist as being ridiculous (rightfully so). But that’s kind of what makes Star Wars what it is.

    • While it was not such a good movie, TLJ was an ok-ish Star Wars movie, and by far the best of the sequels.

  • I would have rather the first order take the place of the rebellion and committed terrorist attacks in Luke’s paradise

    I wish they had kidnapped Kylo and disillusioned him

    The rest of 7 could have played out the same

    For 8 get rid of Holdo, it’s stupid to bring in a character that out ranks everyone and serves only to delay the plot

    You can have silly casino planet in First Order occupied space to show they grew since the last movie. Make Rose more relevant, have them looking for a Jedi temple for Finn. Have her so she previously worked as a librarian in Jedi archives before the first order destroyed it. Now she knows all these locations and things about the force even though she can’t use them. Luke is hiding because he blames himself for the people the First Order killed and he doesn’t want to put anyone else in harm’s way, trains Rey but she still has dark visions and connects to Kylo. Have Rey turn evil, her and Kylo defeat Snoke (can be the same way) then take the first order to fight Luke because she knows where he is, the two of them together are enough to kill Luke

    The last movie if you want Palpatine to return do it through Rey’s body and have her be the final boss. You can parallel 6 with the Skywalker turning good and saving Finn, this time have them team up against full Sith Lord Rey in the fight. Or have Finn take them on one by one while Rose stops their doomsday plans and Po deals with a space battle

  • Idk, I'm nostalgic for the prequels because I grew up with them, but if they were released now and I had only seen the original trilogy I would've made the these comments about them too. Wat frustrates me the most about the sequels is that there's just no coherent plot. It's so obvious that everyone was just writing whatever without looking at the bigger picture. They could've went with this and actually gone somewhere. But 8 was just an exercise in doing everything the viewer didn't expect or want until it got way too frustrating without actually going anywhere and 9 was just a clusterfuck because it tried desperately to get an epic conclusion on a completely incoherent trilogy.

    7 was already flawed, but if 8 and 9 had further established how the First Order got so large, who Snoke was, etc it could've been acceptable. I totally see the "Luke gets disillusioned and isolates himself" spin even if I'd prefer a "Luke slaps the shit out of everyone" story. It gave the new characters some space. But that space wasn't used.

    • Its almost like the movies didn't have a sole. That happens when you are a Disney executive

  • That wasn't a dream, it was a vision of the future. Luke's a Jedi, the Jedi have faith in the Force. The Force showed him a vision, and he believed it. That's what Jedi are supposed to do. And you know what else? The Force wasn't wrong. Given what Ben would go on to do, Luke shouldn't have hesitated.

    • "always in motion, the future is"

      • Oh please, don't quote that ketamine-addled frog at me. The whole thing is his fault anyway, he fucked up literally everything he touched:

        • First he opposed training Anakin at all. Because letting a kid whose Force sensitivity is off the charts run around unsupervised just after you've found out that the Sith are back is apparently a good idea...?
        • Then he assigned him to wet-behind-the-ears Obi-Wan instead of a more experienced master who might be able to guide him better, despite knowing full well that Anakin was going to be difficult to train due to being too old.
        • Didn't recognize Palpatine as a Sith lord despite frequently meeting him face to face.
        • Failed to defeat Dooku.
        • Dismissed Dooku's warning about a Sith being in control of the Republic as disinformation despite every word of it being true.
        • Provided incredibly stupid, worthless, ineffective, and likely even outright damaging 'guidance' to Anakin in the throes of emotional turmoil.
        • Decided that he and Obi-Wan should split up to fight the Sith individually instead of ganging up on one while the other was occupied, and then sent Obi-Wan after Anakin despite being explicitly warned that it wouldn't work.
        • Failed to defeat Palpatine.
        • Tried to stop Luke from going to rescue his friends, who would later prove instrumental in the defeat of the Empire.
        • Tried to teach Luke the same "attachments bad" bullshit that he fed Anakin in order to get him to assassinate his own father; in the end, of course, it was precisely that attachment that proved the key to victory. If anything, the Empire was defeated because Luke, unlike everyone else before him, didn't listen to Yoda.

        So yeah. Every single thing this little green asshole ever said and did was wrong. If it weren't for him, the Republic likely wouldn't have even fallen in the first place. If Yoda says that the future is always in motion, the one thing we can be sure of is that the future is as solid as a rock.

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