2y ago

Defediverse

EDIT: no, I don't sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they're losing an argument ;)

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Yes, let's enter discussion with the literal Nazis so we can try to understand them. There might be nuance to their calls for mass genocide.
Fuck off OP.
- It's funny how people always use play it like "oh, it's just differing opinions" when what they're actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should "try to understand" nazis and tankies, they'd be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of "differing opinions".
  These cretins have a right to post nazi and tankie shit on their own instances -- them's the beauty of the fediverse. But I also have a right to not want hate speech, genocide denial, and Hitler/Stalin/Mao simps polluting my feed. It's not mere "differing opinions" when one person's opinion is "Holodomor didn't happen, and if it did, the Ukrainians deserved it" or "Holocaust didn't happen, and if it did, the Jews deserved it" or whatever apologia they wanna peddle.
  
  It’s funny how people always use play it like “oh, it’s just differing opinions” when what they’re actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should “try to understand” nazis and tankies, they’d be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of “differing opinions”.
  There's an actual term for this: Motte and Bailey. One of many hallmarks of disingenuous shitbirds.
  
  Preaching facts right here friend
  I bloody hate fascist
  
  Another horseshoe theory take... Last I checked the "tankies" saved everyone from the Nazis. Let's equate genocidal/colonial violence to defend capital, with the efforts to establish socialism. LOL
  
  Tankies != communists
  Tankies are the insufferable fascists who take on a red aesthetic. There are plenty of great leftists, commies, and progressives who don't deny the Uyghur genocide or Holodomor or simp for Russia and the CCP. I'm not a communist myself (nor am I a capitalist for that matter), but I've got nothing against non-tankie communists aside from economic disagreements. Tankies I do have issue with, as should anyone who gives a rat's ass about the working class and basic human rights.
  Also, lol at that Stalin profile pic. Literally fetishizing a genocidal dictator who betrayed the working class and murdered millions of innocents.
  
  Yes the angry internet trolls on Hexbear saved everyone from the Nazis, thank you Hexbear for winning WW2 for the world what would we ever do without them.
  You realize that to someone that isn't a terminally online political extremist you sound like those dumb Americans that try and claim the moon landing as their own accomplishment right? Your pasty ass has nothing to do with the brave soldiers that fought the Nazis, and I doubt those badasses would think much of some kid screaming into a computer about why liberals are bad.
  
  Oppressive nations tend to have powerful armies.
  Nobody is defuting that the USSR fought off the Nazis and had the biggest hand in their destruction.
  But just because they fought a great evil, doesnt mean they were " the good guys". It just means they fought a great evil.
  
  But just because they fought a great evil, doesnt mean they were " the good guys". It just means they fought a great evil.
  Exactly! You can't just divide the world into "fought against the Nazis" and "didn't fight against the Nazis" and use that as your entire basis of morality. By that same logic, America is the Good Guys™ and has absolutely zero neo-Nazi problems because they destroyed Imperial Japan and fought against the Nazis, right?
  It's completely possible to fight against the Nazis and still be evil yourself (cough cough Stalin), or the reverse where the Finns technically cooperated with the Nazis, but only because the USSR was literally doing a colonialism against Finland and the Nazis happened to be the only ones fighting the USSR at the time.
  Morality and history are not black and white, despite these lemmygrad users' naked attempts to coerce them into being such.
  
  "Better than Hitler" is really, REALLY not a great flex
  
  Careful where you speak such truths friend, the Pronoun Patrol would've thrown you to the gulags if it was in their instance.
  
  Found the tankie
  
  Oh look, tankie horseshit. How many millions died as a result of "efforts to establish socialism"? So why don't you shove that disingenuous bullshit up your ass.
  
  Last I checked the "tankies" signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis and only became a reluctant ally because they were betrayed.
  
  If you follow your own link to a list of non-aggression pacts, Wikipedia lists 9 of them, most predating the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Other countries were signing these pacts with Nazi Germany. Not to mention the USSR attempted to create alliances with other European powers, but was rejected. The writing was on the wall that war was heading their way..
  in Europe. U.S.-Soviet relations reached their nadir in August 1939, when the Soviets signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Nazi Germany after the British and French rejected Soviet offers to establish a military alliance against Germany. 
  
  I can't read the first link as it's behind a paywall. The second link talked about how Roosevelt tried to establish cordial relations with the Soviet Union but was hampered by their refusal to acknowledge debts owed by the Tsarist government, refusal to stop spreading propaganda within the US, and the killing of Leningrad Communist party boss Sergey Kirov which " launched the first of the “Great Purges” that led to the death or imprisonment of millions of Soviet citizens as the Stalinist regime liquidated any potential critics of the government. The wide scope and public nature of the purges horrified both American diplomatic personnel stationed in the Soviet Union, and the world at large."
  Gee I wonder why the USSR had such a tough go at getting allies...
- HiTlEr WaSn'T aLl BaD
  
  Hitler wasn’t all bad. After all, he did kill Hitler.
  
  Only a good Hitler with a gun can stop a bad Hitler doing genocide.
  
  Well, the Red Army did that.
  
  Just ignore the genocides perpetuated by the Soviets...
  
  If you want to ignore that for some reason you can, but the point is it wasn't Hitler that stopped Hitler from commiting genocide. It was losing the war.
  
  He didn't even want to kill all those people, he only wanted to exploit them and then deport everyone to Africa... but the Allies wouldn't let him conquer enough Africa for all of them, so what was he to do? Killing then wasn't even his idea, it was Reinhardt's! He just signed it...
  (do I put an /s? it's historically correct...)
- I've been successfully reporting troll-accounts and got them banned, I've blocked entire communities (mostly some niche-nsfw communities, so they don't turn up in my local feed on my lemmynsfw.com-account). And I've found most community-moderators reeeeeeaaaaally don't like fascists on their turf and if you see something and report something, most will get the boot.
  This meme presents a false choice, defederation is not the only sane reason to choose (because understanding and/or engaging nazis is decidedly not sane).
  Once an entire instance is gone though... defederate like there's no tomorrow.
- Right.... So thinking that the Tzar's invasion of Ukraine is unjustified is Nazi shit. Thinking that the Holodomor was a genocide is Nazi shit. Cuz that's what ur tankie buddies called me. This is what OP was referencing to.
  
  My dude, just today we had Neo-Nazis berating people outside Disney World about the supremacy of the white race and the need to eliminate all LGBTQ people. "Literal Nazi" isn't some coded terminology that takes a PhD in Cryptography to decipher. There are no hidden meanings here.
- There is a block button. You don't have to scream for daddy Admin every time someone says something stupid. I, for one, want to call them out, not keep everyone from my instance from interacting with them.
  
  every time someone says something stupid
  Here's a philosophical topic called emergence. Every "one" thing said by an idiot is one thing, but when pretty much every other comment becomes some asshole saying ignorant things it suddenly is something entirely different.
  I saw the very early Internet (mid-80s) and what happened when you gave people benefit of the doubt. There's been no demonstration that anyone has changed. So fuck those stupid assholes, the Internet is vast they can go carve out their own thing. That's the nice thing, they have every tool to make their own LOLverse. But they don't because they don't want to suck each other's dick, they want to be an ass to everyone else. Just as it was the case with talk.*
  Same as it was, same as it ever will be. I for one am glad this time around people are being proactive. It shows that some have actually learned something.
  
  Yes, let's give the Nazis a platform to spew their bullshit. It's entirely so we can laugh at them and completely could not possibly lead to them continuing to propagate their message of hate. /s
  Fuck off. Fuck off as far as anyone has ever fucked off before, then dream the impossible dream and fuck off even further.
  
  I don't even trust you to properly define what a nazi is. People are calling Hexbar users Nazis, they are calling Lemmygrad users Nazis, and they call the lemmy.ml admins Nazis as well. Just because you say they are nazis doesn't mean I agree with you.
  
  What, is it only Nazism if it's from the Reichstag region of WWII Germany, and otherwise it's just Sparkling Fascism?
  Maybe ask yourself why it is that when someone explicitly denounces Nazis you feel personally offended.
  
  The Reichstag Region of WWII Germany, eh?
  Like...from the Brandenburger Tor then?
  I get what you are trying to say but to a German this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledygook.
  
  this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledygook
  SelfAwareWolves material right here.
  
  Wait... What? So I'm a Nazi or something who didn't realize what they are because I told you that "the Reichstag region" is an ignorant thing to say when it comes to Nazis since the building itself is a sign of democracy and still seat of the German parliament? It burning was literally used by the Nazis to reduce democratic powers in Germany. You used the word because you happen to know it and it sounds all harsh and German to you.
  
  Besides: De-Federating is a mistake. That'll lead to them reinforcing their bullshit unchallenged inside of their echo chambers and draw in everyone who comes by and stays long enough. That's exactly what strengthens the AFD in Germany or certain religious groups in the US. The only chance you have against them is engaging them and hack off little chips of their construct of lies and hatred until it hopefully collapses.
  De-federating so you don't see them and then pretending that solves anything is like throwing a blanket on a unexploded bomb that has slammed into your bedroom: You can pretend it's not there all your want, until one day where the cover is being lifted rather radically.
  
  On the contrary, deplatforming works very well. In the wake of Reddit banning FatPeopleHate and CoonTown the Georgia Institute of Technology did a study on walling off and removing "safe spaces" for bigots:
  Working from over 100M Reddit posts and comments, we generate hate speech lexicons to examine variations in hate speech usage via causal inference methods. We find that the ban worked for Reddit.
  More accounts than expected discontinued using the site; those that stayed drastically decreased their hate speech usage—by at least 80%. Though many subreddits saw an influx of r/fatpeoplehate and r/CoonTown “migrants,” those subreddits saw no significant changes in hate speech usage.
  In other words, other subreddits did not inherit the problem.
  Banning an entire bigoted instance from yours, i.e. defederating, will accomplish the goal of reducing and removing bigoted behavior from your instance.
  
  Yes, it worked for the platform. It didn't make the bigots go away. They just withdrew. No one actually changed their mind by being banned. They will just move to ever smaller platforms until they land on a platform where they are the only crowd and there they will keep reinforcing each other, leading to more radicalization.
  That's exactly what I said: defederating will make the problem invisible to you, but the hateful bigots will still exist.
  
  I'm tired of people thinking that racists and bigots and morons deserve a warm shoulder to vent to. It isn't anyone's responsibility to make someone be something they aren't, and it's really suspicious anytime someone tells you that you should be nice, or hear out, or let join people that hold disgusting views.
  
  I'm not saying anything of the sort.
  
  “ The only chance you have against them is engaging them and hack off little chips of their construct of lies and hatred until it hopefully collapses.”
  That’s exactly what you’re saying.
  
  I didn't make the time, but I appreciate you illustrating the point I was making.
  
  They will become more radical, but they will be prevented from radicalizing others. When normal people encounter the now hyper-radicalized members of the deplatformed groups, they will tend to write them off as the crazed radicals that they are.
  Convince those who you can. Exile those who are too far gone. Doing the opposite in either instance is harmful.
  
  Why is it every instance admin's responsibility to fix bigots? What is it about running a Lemmy instance that obligates people to actively work to find the one glimmer of redeeming quality in these human septic tanks? Why should the targets of their hatred have to do all the work to avoid being victimized?
  Well it isn't, nothing does, and they shouldn't. Bigots are the ones in the wrong here, and kicking them out works plenty well. Bigots spread by being given platforms. Take away even one of those and it lessens the spread.
  "We shouldn't have echo chambers" is just propaganda from bigots who were upset that their soapboxes got taken away. Stop falling for it.
  
  Grow the fuck up and accept the fact you're not wanted. Instance admins are allowed to associate with who they want. You are not owed anyone else's time and attention simply because you exist.
  Also, has anybody reported this guy yet?
  
  What besides you reading assumptions into what I'm saying makes you think I'm... Whatever you seem to think I am?
  
  A tankie. We think you are a tankie.
  
  A... What now?
  Doesn't matter. What does matter is the weird line if reasoning "you suggest approaching the problem of dealing with people that harm society differently than I would have done, so you must be one of 'them'"
  Besides, you read some bullshit into whatever you wanted because you seem to deem it impossible that someone who has different ideas from your's is not automatically a dog whistling bigot in disguise.
  Look at my post history and tell me what would back your "talkie" theory up. Why would I need all the hidden meanings and secret agendas I'm supposed to have?
  Discussions are getting nowhere when everyone is just assuming and insinuating the shit out if everyone else instead of talking about the stuff that was said at face value.
  
  Exploding-heads no longer exists because they got defederated by everyone
  
  You are advocating for nazis. Fuck off.
  
  You forgot the “except for Nazis” part. No one wants more nazis except nazis and they can fuck off.

561 comments