7mo ago

Oklahoma schools head Ryan Walters: Teachers who won't teach Bible could lose license

www.nbcnews.com Oklahoma schools head Ryan Walters: Teachers who won't teach Bible could lose license

In an interview with NBC News, Walters discussed his new Bible instruction mandate and the consequences for those who don't comply.

165 comments

Time for malicious compliance: "Kids, today we're talking about two girls got their dad drunk and raped him to get pregnant.
- They'll have to be more creative, because the demand is for teachers to tell kids about the Bible's place in U.S. history.
  So I think teaching them about this might be more appropriate: https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/674995075/slave-bible-from-the-1800s-omitted-key-passages-that-could-incite-rebellion
  They might also teach about this man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin
  
  Or how about how the bible was used as an excuse to try to keep Americans dumb and ignorant. An excellent example of exactly where the Bible fits into American history.
  
  They might also teach about this man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin
  Wow, that was an interesting read there! It seems like he may have been an influence on the character "Brother Justin" in the Carnivàle show on HBO.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Carniv%C3%A0le#Brother_Justin_Crowe
- You should hit the erotic poetry section of the Bible, just to be sure you get all the good parts in.
  
  Then you have to explain how her bum was like a mountain goat, and ain't nobody want to do that.

Some neighboring states that aren't christo-fascist are about to get some really good teachers. Welcome to Colorado!
- Except teachers here are paid shit and there's little affordable housing.
  
  That's everywhere, unfortunately...

So I have friends in Texas who have lost their license for one reason or another. This has a wider range of effect than most realize. When applying for ANY other state licensing, in any other industry, the fact that your teaching license was revoked, no matter what the reason was (it won't say why on reports) it's a mark against you when applying for others. All they see is oh this person HAD a state license and it got revoked so, maybe we shouldn't grant this other one.
- It's plainly illegal, and I'm sure the goal is for SCOTUS to take it up and make it legal.
  
  It’s plainly illegal
  SCOTUS will just ignore any precedents and give the states the right to do what they want.
  We’ve already seen this playbook in action.
  We’ve been fools for relying on precedent.

Reading the Memorandum, it doesn't specify what Bible is to be used. Perhaps malicious compliance uses a "alternative" version?
Also found this from the Satanic Temple (who hopefully is on top of this) -
If a public school permits the distribution of religious materials to the student body, they have opened a limited public forum and are obligated to allow religious materials from other faiths. This principle applies to other forms of school-sponsored religious expression as well.
Also funny how these hypocrites go on and on about indoctrination, and then want to indoctrinate every kid in the state by law.
- It's always projection.
- What good does dumbing them down by defunding education have if you don't indoctrinate the new cattle?
  They're farming GOP idiots.
  Keep em poor, uneducated and breeding without a way to abort and in the future no contraception
- It's always projection.
- They are just worried the other group will get to do it before they do

The goal is, here, to have an accurate view of American history
By teaching bronze age fairy tales set in the Middle East.

Surely this could backfire in so many hilarious ways?
Teach the parts that conservatives don't do, and teach your class to call out injustice everywhere.
Teach the bible in Aramaic or Ancient Hebrew, and give the kids 30 mins of study time to learn whatever they want from it.
Use it as an exercise to teach that many parts were written thousands of years ago, and doesn't have current medical or societal advancements, so that many parts might be up to interpretation.
Compare it to Islam, Judaism, and other sects of Christianity - and teach that they're basically the same thing and that everyone should get along.
Reference that the pope said years ago that even nonbelievers that led a good life would be offered a seat in heaven, so be nice and it'll all be fine.
- Also you should explain to your child students what is a prostitute
  
  Tell them about all the fun stuff going on in sodom and gomorrah
- You forgot "this is what hard-core Christians believe, this is where it contradicts itself, here are the 10 commandments including love thy neighbor and don't worship false idols".
  
  You'll get de-licensed for teaching that, too
- Oh I don't know that I would make the claim that major world religions are all about people getting along. I'd say we can find some parts that are much less friendly than that.
  Why don't we go back to Genesis. Lot is an exciting character, and tells us a lot about God's character. And then it gets creepy too.

The funny thing is that a basic understanding of the Bible is actually important for making sense of American history - the people making that history were strongly influenced by the Bible and so unless you know at least the major "plot points", their actions (and a lot of literature) won't make much sense.
With that said, I don't trust Oklahoma to teach about the Bible in a manner appropriate for historical analysis rather than religious dominance.
- he people making that history were strongly influenced by the Bible
  Depends what era you're talking about and what you mean by influence. I would say that the reason Thomas Paine's Age of Reason was so popular and that Jefferson made his own version of the New Testament, which removed the supernatural, suggest that the Bible was less of an influence in the founding of the nation than would be supposed here. The fact that Muhammad is in as venerated a place on the Supreme Court building as Moses also suggests they didn't think it was the source of all wisdom.
  Really, you need to look no further than our legal system though to see how little influence the Bible and Christianity actually have. I don't just mean the First Amendment, I mean the fact that our whole system is basically a gradual evolution from the laws of Ancient Rome. They had trial by jury in Ancient Rome. It was a permanent jury, not a jury of one's peers, but you can see the skeleton of our legal system and how it came from those ancient heathens, not Jesus.
  
  For anyone curious about who shows up on the Supreme Court building
  
  I think you are really glossing over the work of Thomas Aquinas. It's kind of hard to separate the Rome/Greek stuff from the historical Christianity stuff before modern day Evangelical Fundamentalism. Christian thought historically became very linked to Greek philosophy.
- I have a lot of friends who, like me grew, up going to church. Some went to catholic high schools, some went to liberal arts colleges with required religions classes in the core curriculum, or had other exposure. None of us go to church in our adulthood and have no intention starting when we have kids. But we all want our kids to have an understanding of what Christianity is because it's important for understanding American history, origins of non profit institutions, and contemporary political and cultural climate. Also want to ensure there's exposure and understanding of Judaism, Islam, and other predominant religions. Not sure how kids are supposed to get that these days without growing up in a religious house hold.
  Growing up in the Pacific Northwest I remember in school we studied Native American cultures which included some exposure to myth and religion. I wish there was a way schools could touch on modern religions in a more neutral way, perhaps more similar to how we teach classics/greek mythology.
  
  Not sure how kids are supposed to get that these days without growing up in a religious house hold.
  The same way I did in my public middle school in the 90s and the same way my daughter did in her social studies class last year- by teaching comparative religion and attempting to do so without bias. And at no point was I or was she taught that the Bible was one of the important founding documents for our nation, since it wasn't and that's not true.
  If we read any passages from the Bible or the Quran during that class, I don't remember them. My daughter's class did not have them. And yet we now both have enough understanding of those religions to be able to put them within a historical framework.
- There's a lot of truth in that but your second point is the reason why it's still a terrible, terrible idea.
- Not just American history, the Bible is the absolute cornerstone of our entire culture. As the one book that every household owned for much of recorded history, the amount of biblical references and reused stories is ridiculous.
  I have absolutely no problem with the Bible being taught in schools as it's an incredibly important document. I find it odd that it isn't, because the separation of church and state shouldn't prohibit the study of old books in any way.
  I was talking about this with my wife who came from Taiwan at 16 and was sort of second hand exposed to Western culture. She said everything can't be a bible story can it? I dug out a Bible off the shelf and flipped through, well you know David and Goliath, you know Samson, Jonah and the whale yeah these are classics right?
  She says no, so I ask if she knows the story of Pinocchio or why her luggage was made by "Samsonite". And the truck that we saw yesterday with the "G0L1ATH" license plate?
  Yeah it's everywhere
  
  For a long period which roughly coincided with the founding of America, English-speaking people only learned to read using the Bible, and often that was the only book they ever used for anything so it became a sort of de facto dictionary and Guiness Book of World Records and all kinds of things that it was never meant to be, plus a lot of new things it was never meant to be, and of course the things it was always meant to be.
  Mandatory firearms training in school would be more Constitutional than teaching the Bible though. For a very important reason. Akin to a "prime directive" if you will. If you want kids to study it as an elective then fine, allow that, but forcing it on kids is wrong, wrong wrong.

I'm so fucking tired of the US. Shit just always seems to get worse, and for every little victory, we take another huge leap towards a fascist theocracy.
- I like to tell myself that these are the death throes of a dying ideology.
  
  Oh yes, one way or the other. Things are certainly crashing, and the question is what will happen in the aftermath.
  
  I really hope you're right...

Teachers can make this backfire by teaching kids about how Jesus said, among other things:
Rich people don't go to heaven
Jesus's answer to religious people not wanting to see things was for the people complaining to pluck out their eyes.
How Jesus told his followers to sell their shit and give it to the poor.
All things republicans hate because it goes against their ideals. Also they can talk about how in Acts it says Christians lived communally or just read James 5:1-6 verbatim.
But I guarantee the schools will force their teachers only to read parts of the bible that the state demand, because it's not about Christianity, it's about using religion to control people.
- Teach them the story of Lot and his daughters, let them go home and ask their parents about it.
- America was founded on the principle of no official state religion and has fought against it ever since.
  
  You've not fought against it very well, have you?
  You have school "voucher" schemes for religious schools, which do shit like teach kids that Evolution is wrong because of the bible.
  You added "In God we Trust" do your money and added "Under God" to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s (The pledge, with or without it, is in itself a form of state worship).
  You have had presidents (Reagan, Bush II) openly promote the idea that America is a Christian state through historical falsehoods.
  One of the most powerful factions in your government are American Evangelicals who have used their power to promote religious based laws, especially against women and minorities.
  Every President in recent times has had to show themselves to be openly Christian, with "not being christian (enough)" being a common attack strategy.
  And that's just Christianity, if I was going to go into how you worship the state...
  You have Four Faces of Presidents carved on a literal sacred mountain.
  You make your kids pledge allegiance to the state every morning (I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands).
  You have two (2) congress funded art pieces that depict George Washington as a God (Washington Enthroned and The Apotheosis of Washington), the latter of which is in the oculus of the Rotunda at Congress for everyone to see.
  The Lincoln Memorial is straight up designed like a Greco-Roman Temple.
  You have, as a social norm, displaying your flag outside your house.
  How is that not going to be interpreted as "religious"?
  Now, I know someone is going to be all "lol aren't you from the uk where you worship the royal family" well guess fucking what:
  Barely anyone in the UK worships the royals, especially where I'm from (Scotland) and the people who do even in England are considered weird. Our relationship with the Royals as a country is usually one of aggressive irreverence. My family's nicknames for the king includes "The Jug Eared Dwarf", "Chuckie III" and "Tearlach an Chluas".
  Despite having two (2) established churches (Church of England and Church of Scotland), non religious people make up the majority and the UK is aggressively secular.
  Despite the established religion and having the (in practice) head of state also be the (in practice) head of the Church, none of our politicians try and use religion to justify their bullshit and those who do are considered wankers.
  America, in the eyes of most of the world, is aggressively religious, not just in terms of christianity but also in worship of the state.
- Also, who says it's the christian bible 😁 ?

Oh just fuck off.

Can I teach ANY part of the bible?
- I’m waiting for the malicious compliance stories. Any Oklahoma teachers reading, maybe reach out to The Satanic Temple for ideas.
- Do the Song of Solomon.

they’d face the same consequences as one who refuses to teach about the Civil War
Now I’m really afraid to find out what this includes
- Which is a hilarious Freudian slip on their part. Who is it that they think don't want to teach about the Civil War? Could it be the ones who instead refer to it as the "war of northern aggression" and try to erase the context of slavery by saying it was about "states rights"?

What they failed to realise is teachers can have a unique ability to make kids hate a subject.
If you force them to do it, they can do it really badly without it being obvious.
I can imagine reading the Bible word for for in monotone from day 1 won't be a good experience.
- Just read only the parts about incest and rape and waiting for all the parents to complain

Oh I can’t wait for the lawsuits to follow this bullshit.
- I'm still pissed we are spending tax payer money defending this shit. We are doing something similar in La.
  
  As much as it sucks, at least it's being adjudicated.
- So it can get to the Supreme Court and be overturned there?
  
  The Superintenant of OK apparently stated plainly that he believes Trump's appointment to the SC were specifically done to protect states doing this.
- Looking at recent decisions, it's going to go badly for those of us who believe in the anti-establishment clause.
  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
  Congress shall make no law, this actually could be interpreted quite literally by the courts that it is perfectly acceptable for a state to not only establish a religion but to criminalize other beliefs.
  I think this would be a 5-4 decision with SCOTUS. I think Barrett would be against it, because she is Catholic and would see that her beliefs may not be the ones promoted. Kavanaugh and Roberts could be a toss up.
  
  Kavenaugh has been better than expected (still bad). Actually, all of the Trump appointments have been less-bad than Alito, Thomas, and Scalia. If it weren't for the fact that Kavenaugh replaced Kennedy and Barret RBG it wouldn't be so bad.
  The good news is that the next 2 up for replacement are probably Thomas and Alito. If we can hold onto the White House we may be able to unfuck this.
  
  Congress shall make no law, this actually could be interpreted quite literally by the courts that it is perfectly acceptable for a state to not only establish a religion but to criminalize other beliefs.
  Reading one piece of the Constitution or the text of any specific statute is kind of useless in our legal system. Other parts of the Constitution, the laws, and the case law that's been established over centuries and decades also have parts to play.
  This particular legal situation has been argued before, and it's very settled law (at least for now.) Specifically, the 14th Amendment has been viewed to expand many of the Constitutional provisions that originally only restrained Congress to apply to the state governments as well.
  It's most likely to be slapped down in district court, slapped down in the appellate court, and then declined by SCOTUS.

Any of you remember Kitzmiller v. Dover? It was a case that essentially ruled that teaching ID/creationism was a theological doctrine and thus couldn't be included in the biology curriculum of schools across the country. While the issues here at not the same (teaching creationsim vs mandatory bible studies), they have the same ideological underpinnings. Unless we're talking about Sunday school*, schools must remain secular institutions where discussions of religions are from a neutral perspective in regards to the humanities. As to regards to a hypothetical Supreme Court case: considering how ultra-conservative the Supreme Court has become in recent years, I fear that they might side the theocrats.
*Are those still a thing?
- Sunday school is not a public institution, which is why it gets a pass. Similarly private schools are free to do this all week long.
  I think even this supreme Court would rule the correct way. I wouldn't be surprised if it were even unanimous, but at worst I'd expect the 6/3 split with Thomas, Goraych, and Alito. There's only so far they can go when the Constitution was very blatantly clear on this matter.
  
  And we should let it get a pass. Sunday School is the place to teach kids about the Bible. That's what it's for. That's not what public school should be for. If parents want to indoctrinate their kids into religion, there's no really effective way to stop it. But at least we can tamper it by keeping it out of our schools.
- Every time Democrats have an opportunity to increase the number of seats on the SCOTUS, they punt.
  
  Short of congress impeaching Supreme Court members (which they can do), it seems the only real answer is to just expand it so that it has so many seats, it is effectively as useless as congress.
  
  I wonder if the thinking is that once the proverbial seal on that lid is broken, the next administration would just Uno-reverse it by adding more of its preferred justices?
  And, it's not like (aside from the first two damn years when it should have been done) they had a trifecta; although you could be assured Manchin or Senema(?) would have fucked them over.

And this is the same cunt that was blaming "the radical left" for "politicizing" the death of a child under his care. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/23/us/oklahoma-nonbinary-student-superintendent.html

I'd love to see parents flabbergasted by their children refusing the shellfish daddy worked hard to buy, and making sure their clothes don't use mixed fabrics.

I am sorry no. I don’t want this garbage taught in schools.

Then teach the parts of Isaiah which show clearly he held in contempt the people, of his day, who were doing what the "Jews" who convicted benJoseph, did, & what the "Christians" who identify as Republicans are doing now.
Teach how benJoseph called biblical-legalists "Hypocrites!" right in the bible.
Teach them all the things in their own bible which identify the "Christian" fascism as being the enemy of their own root-guru/Christ.
Here is Isaiah 1 from their bible, so you can see that what Moses fought against a couple millenia earlier ( if one happens to remember that stuff from other readings ), happens this time not within the people of Egypt, but within the Israelites..
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+1&version=AMP
Obviously, now it's happening within the "Christians".
Notice, here, that nearly-all teachings on Hypocrites! are in the New Testament..
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=hypocrite&version=AMP
& here is a phrase, right in their bible, of the whole "they call themselves Jews, but are gaslighting" sentiment,
which, as anybody with integrity would understand, is an accusation which can be placed on many of ANY human religion, including the Dharmic religions ( including my own beloved Vajrayana ), including the Abrahamic religions, including the people who claim Science but embody/enforce Scientism's gaslighting, etc..
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2%3A9&version=AMP
It is a particular kind of dishonesty, and it isn't limited-to any tradition or culture, no matter how convenient to some ideologies that would be.
Find all the parts of the bible that contradict the gaslighters who call themselves "Christian", & teach only those bits.
WHEN teaching the now-legally-required-in-some-jurisdictions "10 Commandments", add this & discuss how this applies to the people who legislate in our countries:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A10&version=AMP
"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword".
Turn their own book's honest-truths against their falseness.
_ /\ _

'Teach Bible'... only churches should 'teach bible' and nobody should be forced to go to church.
Is it even christian to force a sermon onto people?
- Is it even christian to force a sermon onto people
  Well historically Christian denominations have been quite pushy to say the least.

Can that head of schools lose his license for demanding this bullshit that only leads into the next dark age?

School teachers, complying with letter of the law: "Bible says there was flood. Science shows there wasn't. Bible says diseases appeared as result of sin. Science shows diseases existed long before humans."

Pretty messed up of Ryan.
- That's his m.o.
- I keep my eye out for him in public around here just so I can get an assault charge, but I've yet to cross that little rat.

If more people actually read the Bible there would probably be fewer xtians.

Reason number * I'm glad I don't live I'm america

No way this isn't struck down. It's got to just be a political signaling play.
- They want it to go to SCOTUS so SCOTUS can (and probably will) make it legal.

How can you teach Bible? Which historical happening in Israel influenced what part, which pagan deity Beelzebub was, etc?

What's the difference here between teaching the bible and teaching history? I recall getting through Hon and AP US History and Civics with and understanding of protestantism conflicts, Calvinism, and Deism. The law and mandate is bullshit, but what is the actual curriculum requirements. If you are teaching the historical content of the Bible that means you can also teach about atheists that took issue with it. Is there a lot of room for malicious compliance?
- Malicious compliance is still compliance. If you concede this hill, the next one will be a requirement to teach the Bible as historical truth. And then it will be to prevent teaching actual science.
  
  Well I think the Unions and government need to push back on this (the AG already is). I 100% believe that this should be reveresed. But reading the article it states that losing your teaching license is possible punishment. It's really easy to be high and mighty when it's not your livelihood and job on the line. If you need to wait it out while the courts settle it what do teachers need to do to protect their jobs, stay in compliance, and avoid retaliation until this gets settled? How many teachers already are in compliance just by teaching regular US history curriculum that says "yeah, protestants read the bible and disputes on interpretation of the bible with catholics is part of the history of America." I think it's important to note that the Gutenberg press published the first printed bible. With the increase of education and literacy lay people no longer had to get teachings directly from the literate Orthodoxy. This allowed to different interpretation and rise of different religions which led to conflict, etc...
- History is based on historical facts and the Bible is not.
  
  The existence of the Bible is historical fact and artifact. There is historical merit in studying the various religious beliefs of historical peoples that factored into their values and thinking. Protestantism is factually a thing. Different colonies and denominational belief is a thing and a topic in American history. What made Quakers Quakers and how did that impact the Pennsylvania.
  There's a difference between teaching the bible, teaching theology, and teaching histories of religion. There's definitely questions of what we are teaching and what is appropriate in public primary and secondary schools and in what subject, but I don't think there is anything in and of itself bad if the historical religious beliefs and impact on historical civic life are discussed.

when the federal government makes everything a state's rights issue we get fifty states doing whatever the hell they want
obvious at this point Biden has either lost the reins or is intentionally letting the nation slip
very coincidental that we lost women's rights and we have a huge surge of religious oppression at the same time a prolife religious right leaning conservative democrat gets at the helm
- The guy responsible for killing Roe v Wade literally took credit for it on TV yesterday.
- I don't know that there is much Biden can do. The Federal government can't just tell a state no, they have to take them to court and prove that they are violating federal law. And we now have gerrymandered-to-hell legislatures violating federal law right and left and there's only so much time and so many resources.
  I'm not going to tout Biden as the greatest president ever or anything, but I can't blame him for this. He's not responsible for putting Ryan Walters in his position and he doesn't have the power to get rid of him.
  
  Biden has been a career politician longer than been alive or you perhaps
  definitely blame him and all Democrats and Republicans
  don't wake up one day and magically become progressive
  he always has been right leaning and his party could have been at least shouting to the rooftops about the injustices but instead just deafening silence
  did he even mention this at the debates last night? how about cop city? or anything relevant?
  Good Ol' Silent Joe
- That kind of attitude lingers dangerously close to the everything-is-a-conspiracy-by-the-shadowy-cabal line of reasoning. Biden's a Catholic, but it's certainly not "obvious" that he's "intentionally letting the nation slip". You can scroll down barely a page on whitehouse.gov and watch the president commit to restoring the standard of Roe v Wade. It's under the statements in favor of Pride, committing to combating gun deaths, lowering housing costs, and protecting pensions. Joe Biden's executive orders have been the most progressive executive action since Roosevelt.
  Here's something a lot of non-religious folks might not know: the evangelical right? They hate Catholics. The MAGAs hate them ideologically, but the ones running the show hate them because the Catholic Church is their competition when it comes to running private schools and otherwise lucrative community support institutions. Biden is absolutely not on their side, theologically or otherwise.
  
  the Catholic Church is their competition when it comes to running private schools and otherwise lucrative community support institutions
  I generally agree with what you've written, but I think you're assuming more pragmatism here than is actually present. Bitter hostility between Protestants and Catholics is as old as Protestantism (and much older than the institutions you mention).
  Also, as a side note, there are plenty of Catholic Republicans. (37% vs 44% that identify as Democrats, according to Pew.)
  
  his idea of committing is asking for donations and promising to look into that once the money hits a certain amount
  living in the US either way feels like living in a Church fucking awful
- After reading the rest of your comments, you could've just saved a lot of time by saying you don't know how the government works. And if anyone else happens to read this and think, "Hey that's a good point," no, it isn't. It's ignorant at best, actively malicious at worst. Sounds a whole lot like many of the comments trying to get people not to vote.
- You're going to blame Biden for the stance of conservatives? This is totally wrong. Right wing religious conservatives have been wanting to bring christianity back into schools for over 50 years and they have finally forced it to happen through state laws. Republicans want this and are making it happen.
- ... religious right leaning conservative democrat ...
  Um, no. Biden is pretty solidly in the center, his record is a mix of left and right positions, and his positions have evolved as he's aged. I do believe he's religious, but he is not trying to force his religious beliefs on us like some states are currently doing with the 10 commandments bullshit.

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