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Chris Remington @beehaw.org

The Beehaw project is entering some significant challenges

There is a lot of discussion happening in the background of our project here. We could not anticipate all of the challenges that we were going to face a few years ago. One of the reasons for this was because we had no idea what our choice of a platform would bring.

Specifically, we chose Lemmy as the software that we would use to launch our endeavor to attempt a safe space for marginalized persons online.

In the first year or so, this choice was completely successful for a very small number of users. And then we all experienced an enormous influx of users when Reddit announced/implemented their shutting down of third party apps.

Since then there has been a huge number of people that have joined the Beehaw project. This tsunami of users initiated technical problems, and otherwise, that we could not foresee.

Thankfully and fortunately, we have had a couple of incredibly knowledgeable persons that have swooped in to ’save the day’ and keep this site running.

Unfortunately, these persons will NOT be able to continue to support the Beehaw project much further. They have life commitments and other factors, including careers and family life, that will prevent them from contributing to our project in an ongoing fashion.

All that being said, Lemmy (the software that Beehaw runs on) development is incredibly slow and is riddled with problems that makes administration/moderation very painful.

Therefore, we are left with some options that may feel uncomfortable to us. For example, we may want to consider leaving the Fediverse for another software platform that does NOT include ActivityPub. To explain, Fediverse/ActivityPub are very positive concepts on the foundational level. However, the Beehaw project is struggling to include this because most of our moderation/content/ethos is being jeopardized from OTHER federated instances (i.e. it, mostly, is NOT coming from within our own Beehaw registered user base).

The aforementioned persons, that have ’swooped in to save the day’, have been discussing/working with us to come up with the best solutions that would enable the Beehaw project to continue while NOT needing incredibly experienced/technically adept persons around.

Right now, we are testing alternative software platforms and evaluating them based on everything that we want Beehaw to become in the future.

Thank you all for your continued support of the Beehaw project and entrusting us to make this happen.

131 comments

  • If this is an issue with people spinning up malicious instances. Could you switch to a whitelist of federated instances? Beehaw feels like the heart of lemmy and it would be a shame to see it go.

  • Specifically, we chose Lemmy as the software that we would use to launch our endeavor to attempt a safe space for marginalized persons online.

    As a relatively non-marginalized person, I think it's important to focus on this. Beehaw has grown beyond the marginalized group. If Beehaw were to leave Lemmy, the non-marginalized would be fine and can switch to different instances. The marginalized would follow Beehaw for that safe space.

    It comes down to the purpose of a safe space. There's the group of people that want to avoid bigots, and there's the group that want to be a light unto the world, to effect change.

    An example of a little bit of positive Beehaw has had outside of their community would be the influence it has had on me. I've read posts from the LGBT+ community that enlightened me to things I've never thought about. But I'm also not a bigot, just naive.

    The negative is what has prompted these discussions: the bigoted trolls. It's just not sustainable for the small Beehaw team to moderate everything.

    My view is that it's of utmost importance to maintain the safe space for the marginalized. Of those marginalized who want to connect outside the safe space, they are free to engage in Lemmy/Reddit and spread their light.

    What would I do? I would find a new instance and continue to be receptive to LBGT+ discussions that come up on Lemmy. I don't feel right asking Beehaw to stay on Lemmy at the cost of keeping marginalized people safe from bigots. They deserve to be able to talk about things without having bigots come at them; to be able to laugh and cry and vent and have others understand—especially with the US Right becoming more brazen in their persecution of this community.

    Just my 2 cents.

    • Another non-marginalized person here.

      Restricted spaces are necessarily smaller than non-restricted. Less content. Less interaction. Less everything. If hateful content is really rampant, then that can be a valid tradeoff, but separate systems are never equal, and it is always the minority/marginalized system that suffers. You've described exactly why: "I would find a new instance and continue to be receptive to LBGT+ discussions that come up on Lemmy."

      As I look elsewhere in this thread, the comments I see people reference as "against Beehaw goals" are just people being rude assholes, not misogynist, racist, or homo-/trans-phobic. Creating a space where everyone is polite and universally friendly seems a very different objective than creating a space where marginalized people feel safe. If that - universal friendship - is the real goal, then Beehaw very definitely needs to close off interactions with non-vetted, pseudonymous users, and accept that it will look like a virtual ghost town. In that case, it doesn't matter whether it stays with defederated-by-default lemmy or moves to some other forum platform.

      The middle ground, where you accept that some people are just rude, but still provide a forum where marginalized people feel they can share their experiences without threats or repercussions, needs strong, active, focussed moderation. Have to be able to block users and communities from other instances, delete posts/comments that originate from other instances, and do local moderation of communities hosted on other instances. Have to have enough moderators to respond quickly to user reports, and probably an automod-like system to catch serious issues before users do. It sounds like that is not within the current capabilities of lemmy. So, I can see why the admins think that the lemmy framework is incompatible with their objectives. Probably, a lot of the people who joined post-Reddit are incompatible and uninterested in those objectives.

      I can see where the lemmy framework worked when no one used it, and I can see why it would immediately fail in the face of hundreds of thousands of new users. If millions are coming, it will only get worse. No doubt, the admins are aware that they'll lose 80, maybe 90% of their userbase if they leave Lemmy, but it's not so long ago that their userbase was only 10-20% of what it is today.

      If I lose this little window into cultures I would not otherwise see, I will be a lesser person for it, but I can accept that it was not meant for me in the first place.

    • Take my 2 cents too. Well put.

    • Online gathering spaces not hostile to trans and gnc folks seem to be evaporating. It’s concerning with KOSA in the works in the US.

    • You make a very, very good point. I’m glad you posted.

      Also,

      But I'm also not a bigot, just naive.

      is so much me it’s ridiculous.

  • Hey all,

    Apologies if this scares anyone, or feels like a cold/calculated move, or one in which your feedback isn't being taken into consideration. That was not the intent. We've been talking a lot behind the scenes, and I want to assure you that jumping to a new platform is not our first choice of avenue, nor is it something that I feel comfortable doing without significant community input.

    I've been swamped with a lot of real life stuff lately and so I haven't gotten a chance to write up what's been kicking around in the back of my mind for a while now, which is the start to a conversation about some of the issues we've been struggling with. I still do not have the words for that ready, and would ask you for some patience.

    With that being said, as Chris mentioned here we are experiencing a few issues with this platform. More information about these issues will be forthcoming soon. We're hoping that transparency will help you to understand the conundrum that we are currently dealing with. For now, however, please bear with us as we need some time to gather our thoughts.

    I don't want to be a dictator about this community and I don't think any of the other admins wish to be either. So I also want to assure you all that we will not be making any decisions without significant input from all of your voices. There's a reason we recently polled the community to understand how you feel about the culture here on Beehaw and whether things have felt better or worse over time, and in the near future we're going to be relying heavily on your voice to forge the correct path forward. Beehaw is a community, and we greatly value your voices.

    • Beehaw has been online for over 18 months, it was well established when there were only 30 Lemmy servers and then Reddit API change came along in May... the sign-up page and application process couldn't even cope with hundreds of users per day.

      Then 1000 new instance servers went online in just a couple months where your 18-month established presence was suddenly getting all kinds of server to server action.

      You have been on the front-line of a lot of people motivated by hate of Reddit. Not love of Beehaw.

    • I'll admit the wording of the post made me react as if these potential changes were imminent. I will respect any decision the admin team makes, and I encourage you to continue to stick to the core ideas of Beehaw to which you've written extensively about, while being able to balance your own lives and mental health.

      The idea I'll throw in the ring is to introduce one of the Automod programs (example), which can help keep the designated safe-space communities more tightly moderated, and address some of the issues of moderation granularity. For example, a user/instance whitelist could be instated as to who can post to the protected communities, with all other comments removed. An application process can be instituted to add to the whitelist.

  • I really hope this doesn't sound extreme (especially since I'm technically a Kbin.social user) but I'm really only interested in Beehaw as part the larger Fediverse. If Beehaw leaves the Fediverse it'll just be another tiny Reddit/Lemmy clone, but without the strengths of either platform, and I truly believe that it won't be long until Beehaw goes the way of the traditional web forum.

    I think there is a lot of value (to the community, at least) in Beehaw being a safe and friendly place within the broader Fediverse. The more strictly/seriously you all take that goal, the more moderation is required to achieve it, of course.

    In the end, I think that it's probably a lot of work to "clean up" the Fediverse, so I can understand why it may seem easier to just leave. But I also think that it's possible that you've lost a sense of perspective with regards to the positive aspects of federation that made Beehaw appealing in the first place. At the risk of making a bad/cheesy analogy, we've seen examples in history of countries trying to isolate themselves from the rest of the world in order to simplify things or preserve their own ways of living/thinking, and it really doesn't work or benefit them in the long run.

    The internet was founded on the basic premise of connecting people, even though we've all seen that doing so brings about various challenges and some potential for conflict. The fediverse brings us back towards a truly open and connected internet, and in my onion that's where technologies like Mastodon, Pixelfed, Lemmy, Kbin, etc., derive a lot of their charm and utility. As someone who has dabbled in this stuff for years, I can say that Lemmy was not very useful to me when it was just a handful of small echo chambers, Beehaw was the first "threadiverse" server I joined because I really felt that it was offering something new, different, and much-needed to the ecosystem, and I'll be more than a little bit disappointed if you all decide to leave.

    • If Beehaw leaves the Fediverse it'll just be another tiny Reddit/Lemmy clone, but without the strengths of either platform

      Exactly my thoughts, honestly for me all that ain't Fediverse is a downgrade... if any I'd like old forums to join Activity Pub somehow lol.

    • I don't this is an extreme take. Lots of Lemmy users would be sad to see Beehaw leave even if the reasons for leaving are understandable to them.

      For me, the value of Beehaw was that there was a place on the internet where people could converse with mutual understanding and without judgement. I think such a space still exists here, but has faded a little when mixed in the context that Lemmy as a whole has gotten a bit more combative and falling into the same ragebait kind of traps Reddit conversations tended to go.

      Through Beehaw I also became more knowledgeable in the LGBTQ+, disability, neurodivergence and feminism spaces, just by reading the posts and only occasionally adding a comment seeking better understanding, to which my questions were answered openly and honestly. I don't want Beehaw to grow just for the sake of growing, but having Beehaw around I think will help internet users at large be able to learn about and sympathize with these causes simply by being there.

  • If the goal of beehaw is that the user base remain ever small, then by all means jump ship and move on, I can respect that and I wish you all the best. However unless your good faith "rockstars" are planning on building you a platform, you will likely find out that the grass is not always greener on the other side, and that migrations bring additional tensions and work.

  • As a Reddit App-ocalypse refugee, I'm not going back to a centralized forum, much less without an app. Even Lemmy's level of "hub-"alization is somewhat unnerving, but Beehaw has been a good compromise between moderation, federation, and app accessibility.

    I would rather you could work out the kinks of the platform, instead of switching to another. I think Beehaw is highly positive for the Lemmy space, and that it would be best for everyone if the platform could be adapted to include meeting Beehaw's needs.

  • Losing Beehaw would definitely hurt Lemmy. This was not my first home on Lemmy, but I quickly saw that all of the good communities seemed to belong to this place.

    However, I would probably never have found this place if you weren't federated. I would naively assume others are in the same boat as me.

    I did initially come to Lemmy only as an alternative to reddit, but I've stayed because of the ActivityPub protocol. I'd probably not stay active on Beehaw on another protocol, and I'd definitely still keep a Lemmy account on another instance.

    I do understand your concerns, and what you wish to achieve. Personally I would have just hoped you tried to achieve it here for longer. Though I do get the struggles with moderation.

    Whatever you decide I wish the best for this community in the long term! I hope that regardless of it staying here, or moving elsewhere, it thrives and keeps the content and discussions that its members would like to have.

  • If there's not going to be federation via activitypub I will not continue to use beehaw at all, so, this was very unfortunate to read.

  • Beehaw is a big part of the fediverse. May I suggest you have a look at fediseer? It's the principle of public private key cryptography applied to lemmy whitelists. I can help you set it up - just reach out!

  • Just unticking the federation option would allow for a lot more direct control in itself. Pethaps more of a discussion of what the challenges of losing a couple technical resources are could help bring out some solutions. Maintaining an instance at a base level is pretty easy, performance is another matter perhaps.

  • I've seen this suggested a few times throughout this thread, so I'll just add my support for considering defederating instances that don't follow similar behavioural expectations to Beehaw. The best thing about Beehaw, and what drew me here rather than any other instance, was the Be(e) nice rules, and the fact that it's a safe place to be myself.

    While I do think the majority of users from other instances are good people who are fine with following Beehaw's rules when they're visiting this space, the fact that Lemmy as a platform doesn't have adequate moderation tools for dealing with bad actors (as I understand it, the issue is that you can't block specific users from Beehaw, which means you're continuously chasing down bad actors' individual comments?) means it comes down to a question of what's more important: being federated with other instances, regardless of whether their values align with Beehaw's; or being more protective of the vibes of this space, even though it means becoming a more isolated space.

    Coming from the perspective of someone who's part of a marginalised community, I favour the latter. There are lots of big, hostile spaces out there, where bigots can run free and say whatever they like without consequences. There's a lot fewer spaces that require everyone to treat others with respect. Defederate with the instances that don't share our values, with a view to being open to re-federating with them at a later date when Lemmy's moderation tools eventually catch up.

    Edited for typos.

  • Locking this post for now because it's quickly going off the rails. We will have more for you soon. Please be patient.

  • All that being said, Lemmy (the software that Beehaw runs on) development is incredibly slow and is riddled with problems

    The developers of Lemmy have been running it on the Internet for over 4.5 years, but they only had a few thousands posts in 4 years... it lacks moderation (and spam) tools and it drops and alters data silently that shows they really don't use it or focus on the data.

    kbin is newer, but it is only now starting to have an API - so Lemmy has attracted all the app developers because of API - and kbin also struggles with moderation and spam.

    we may want to consider leaving the Fediverse for another software platform that does NOT include ActivityPub.

    I can entirely understand that. Reinventing the wheel of basic forum features ties up a lot of kbin and lemmy development - and federation is the wild west. People can participate in your forum without having the context or understanding, or worse, to do attacks at an entire server to server level - manipulating votes and having wildly different policies.

    Thank you for sharing your thinking.

  • As a kbin.social user, we would all be diminished if Beehaw were to defederate. If I were to ever move instances from a kbin to a lemmy platform, it would be over to you guys. I hope that you guys are able to find the help you need to keep going as part of the wider fediverse.

    1. Do what must be done, anyone who wants both the beehaw experience and the lemmy experience can handle two accounts
    2. Please pin this post, so people know what's being discussed

  • Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think moderation grows exponentially with numbers of instances. A single comment may need moderation on each distinct instance. The more instances, the more moderation needs for that comment.

    That seems unsustainable. I understand the conundrum.

    • Comments/posts get moderated at the community level, any instance subscribing to it, will also receive the moderation notification to update its cache, so it doesn't need to be moderated again. In theory, an instance "could" ignore moderation actions for a community it's subscribed to, but that makes little sense.

      A problem comes when a community decides not to remove a comment/post, then it gets spread to all instances that subscribe to that community. Only in that case federated instances need to apply additional moderation.

      Federated instances subscribed to a community would have the option to either block the user, the comment, the post, the community, or the whole instance (defederate). Fine grained options like blocking a single user's every comment on a post, or on a community, or on an instance... or blocking every post by any user from an instance that they send to a community, or... etc. would be additional options... but Lemmy is lacking most of them.

      So moderation isn't inhrently an exponential problem, but right now is limited to a blunt tool that mostly relies on the good faith of everyone for things to work... and it's been shown over and over that there are people acting in bad faith.

  • Every single part of Beehaw seems ill-suited to the fediverse. I joined (like many) after Reddit shit the bed by banning 3rd-party apps. I wrote a thoughtful (mandatory) application essay and... silence. Never heard back. Later, I reacted to a particularly bad take in a Beehaw thread and was told that I wasn't "being nice" like the rules required... Bitch, I'm not even a part of the your "community"! You chose to federate with the rest of us! I guess what I'm trying to say is byeeeeeeeee! Go start your own little puritan community somewhere I don't have to encounter it...

    • You know how on reddit, and many other platforms, subcommunities within those platforms have rules? Like some subreddits had a no image macros rule? If you posted an image macro to one of those subs, and get warned or your post is actioned, that entirely on you and not on the community. it doesn't matter if you're "part" of that community, you should abide by the rules of that community when you post in it.

      Of course, you're welcome to wilfully ignore or go against the rules of the communities you post in, but aside from being just a generally dick move, you also put yourself in the sights of the moderation of that community.

      Bitch, I'm not even part of your "community"! You chose to federate with the rest of us!

      And you chose to post in this community - abide by the rules or the moderators have every right to tell you you're breaking the rules, or take action if it continues.

      I think, based on the attitude you've displayed here, I can see why you were not deemed a good fit for the community when you applied.

      • The wording in the parent comment also seems to imply the Fediverse is just Lemmy/kbin, which is a weird self-centric take I see here (i.e. on Lemmy) a lot.

        A lot of the broader fedi that has access to adequate moderation tooling are doing just fine and don't seem too "ill-suited". It's really just Lemmy that's like this.

        I'm not entirely sure I'll attempt joining "the new Beehaw" wherever it may set up shop (y'all are a bit too serious news-y for my liking, personally), but all the federated interactions I had with the folk from Beehaw had been quite positive, and it's kinda sad to see y'all go. But I can definitely understand the reasons why, and I do have my own gripes with Lemmy (both the software and the unfortunate community it has picked up) as well.

      • I understand what you said about community rules. But the funny thing about the Fediverse and how people receive their posts is that it's not uniform. I'm in kbin on a phone and I don't see who is posting from what instance unless I click further. Same for the community or magazine someone is posting in - I can see that on my feed but once I click on a post I cannot see it. I've joined many communities and magazines and they are only identified by the topic name in my feed, not the instance. I cannot see any community or magazine rules from my feed or inside the posts.

        Just saying that easily identifying a group's rules is more of a challenge in the Fediverse (this is not an argument to ignore rules).

    • Your conduct here is indicative of why you might not have been accepted into Beehaw or had mod action taken against you. I can understand your frustration, but federation (as it is right now) is a two-way street: The servers share posts, but users are expected to behave according to the rules of the server they are posting to.

      You are capable of not posting in Beehaw, and you are welcome to block Beehaw communities as you wish, if you don't like Beehaw's rules, mods, or expectations we have on your behaviour.

  • I'm a big proponent of federation and the Lemmyverse. While it would be sad for me to see Beehaw leave ActivityPub, I've always said that the admin team should do what they think is best for themselves and Beehaw and I will respect such decisions.

    I probably wouldn't make a new account on another service because that would require a new app on my phone, but I'm OK with that if the idea of Beehaw prospers in another space.

    @PenguinCoder @admin If I may suggest something on Lemmy as a stopgap measure, Beehaw can enlist the help of one of the AutoMod programs of Lemmy, so that any comment not on an approved user or instance list are removed on the specific "safe-space" communities. It might take some testing/tinkering but this may give you some of the granularity in moderation that has been requested.

  • Well, that's kinda sad.

    Sign of federated-not-Reddit-thingle carking it? Maybe. Sign that it's about time for myself to give up and leave? Maybe.

    I blame everyone. Boo, us! scowls scoldingly at all, including itself

131 comments