3mo ago

Review Written by UnitedHealthcare CEO Shooting Suspect about Ted Kaczynski's "Industrial Society and it's future"

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/4065667863

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Except the problem is that humans are cognitively advanced than other animals. We should be able to find some way to reason out our differences, otherwise we’re always going to be stuck in a dark cave of our own making. What’s the fucking point of humanity then?
The problem is that there aren’t effective ways to curtail sociopathic behaviors which come to the surface because of our current economic tool of choice. Tbh, it will not matter what economic tool we use because the greed problem and self-preservation problem will remain. It always does!
We should be working towards developing safeguards and mechanisms to protect humanitarian ideals, and to curtail sociopathic behaviors. I think a big part of this is that people should elect better leaders. If you’re forced to choose “lesser of two evils”, then there should be a mechanism to organize an effective write-in choice.
If someone then comes to kill you for making democratic choices, as happens in autocratic regimes, then self-defense is valid and justified.
- Ok but the CEOs are the sociopaths right? Because it appears to me that Luigi was applying irl solutions to the trolley problem
- Sociopathic behaviours are always going to be a huge problem in large societies. They’re not even exclusive to humans anyway. Just look at all the parasites in nature.
  All of our cognitive and social abilities break down when you get into large groups. We’re evolved to be able to work with extended family units where we have a reasonable ability to build personal relationships and trust networks among all of the people we interact with.
  In large societies everyone becomes anonymous and we’re stuck with societal laws and norms which are constantly under attack. Our usual mechanisms for punishing betrayal through reputation damage and ostracism fall apart in an anonymous society. In more recent history we relied on societal institutions (democratic and judicial as well as private societies) and the media (newspapers, magazines, TV news) to cover some of this role but it was imperfect and only applied to the most infamous offenders.
  Now we’ve lost even that limited media function due to the post truth revolution (thanks to the internet) and its acceleration of the breakdown of trust in societal institutions and the decline of the media.
  
  All of our cognitive and social abilities break down when you get into large groups. We’re evolved to be able to work with extended family units where we have a reasonable ability to build personal relationships and trust networks among all of the people we interact with.
  Our usual mechanisms for punishing betrayal through reputation damage and ostracism fall apart in an anonymous society. In more recent history we relied on societal institutions (democratic and judicial as well as private societies) and the media (newspapers, magazines, TV news) to cover some of this role but it was imperfect and only applied to the most infamous offenders.
  Cool and agreed, but the original point holds up that greed and self-preservation always ruin things for groups of people trying to do anything together. Everything you mentioned is a symptom of corporate interests subverting democracies. Look, there’s nothing inherently wrong with corporations having an interest in their success, but govts. need to be able to curtail their worst tendencies because it makes sense to prioritize long-term benefits over short-term gains.
  If people really give a fuck about monied interests and their control over democracies, then they should be pushing for higher taxes on the wealthy (like 250K or more per year) like it’s an existential crises. Because it is. Tbf, 250K is pretty normal in a HCOL, so higher taxes should take that into account.
  
  I view governments with the same suspicion that most people around here view corporations. Look at history. The worst atrocities were committed by highly motivated and ideological governments.
  When it comes down to it, it’s all just different ways of organizing groups of people and they’re all vulnerable to some of the same problems to do with anonymity, accountability (or lack thereof), and control.
- It hasn’t been established that intelligence is a requisite for survival.
  
  If we think of intelligence as goal-directed and adaptive behavior, then natural selection will select for competitive traits, and so whatever ended up losing was less intelligent in some sense, even if it’s a single-cell organism.
  
  Actually, there’s a lot of evidence that points to intelligence being a sexually selected trait rather than naturally selected, so in that sense it may actually negatively correlate with survival. In other words, your big brain is the human equivalent of peacock features; it will get you laid but doesn’t do much good when a tiger comes around.
  Think of it this way: to sit around doing math problems all day, you have to have the basic necessities for survival dealt with, which shows you’re a good mate within the current environment. Which is all well and good until times change, the going gets tough, and you need to kill something to put food on the table.
  
  it will get you laid but doesn’t do much good when a tiger comes around.
  This is categorically false, sorry
- I stopped at "what's the fucking point of humanity then?"
  .... Are you under the impression that there's a point to living? Some grand plan or purpose that drives people?
  The only reason I'm not in the ground already is because when I thought about it, my death would cause suffering to people I cared about, so I'd rather take on that suffering myself than put it on them. If everyone I cared about died, I'd petition for medical euthanasia, if that was denied, I'd go find the nearest bride and swan dive into pavement.
  The only reason we exist is to have babies so they can exist and have babies. Human life, indeed all life, lives to procreate, and make more of itself. That's it.
  I've always questioned why we're worthy of survival, but all the species we've killed off due to climate change, or hunting them to extinction, or destroying their habitat where they die off because they can't survive in a different habitat, are not worthy of survival.
  I'm not convinced that humans should continue to perpetuate themselves long term. Bluntly, I can't point to anything genuinely good that we've done for any creature other than ourselves. We address environmental issues sure, but we caused them. The only thing we go out of our way to do, at all, and with significant disagreement and debate, is fix shit we fucked up. That's it. Everything else has been a selfish pursuit of greed by humans.
  What's been happening, has not changed my mind on any of this.
  I'm not crazy, and I'm not going to try to exterminate anyone because I don't think humans should continue to exist. I'm still here to bring as much happiness and joy to the people I care about, and I don't have the mental capacity to feel anything but contempt for everyone screwing everything up. I can't spare the effort to hate anyone. It's exhausting.
  At this point, I just want everyone to leave me alone so I can live my tiny comfortable life with the people I actually care about, grow old and die.... Hopefully in that order.
  
  Sorry you had to write all that just to get downvoted. But what I meant to convey was that by some cosmic accident a cognitively advanced animal appeared, one that can seek to understand fundamental truths about the universe and its reality.
  I just hold that cosmic accident in high regard, and think we have a duty as stewards of things we can understand using skills, talents and properties innate to us as a species. This is part of the reason that I think every human life wasted and not supported to its full potential is a failure of society.
  
  Oh, I agree with much of what you say. I'm just not convinced that we as a society are valuable in any way that justifies our continued propagation.
  Most of what I wrote was to qualify what I'm saying so that it's understood. I expect downvotes because I'm basically calling humans as a species, not worthy of existing. Some people who are very ego driven proud homo erectus, can definitely take offense to my statements; so down votes are generally expected.
  I suppose that some downvotes would also come from those that believe that humans were created by God, under that pretense, I would be insulting their God by saying we're not worthy of existing. So yeah.
  Between those two, I'm unmoved by the fact that some decided to down vote.
  
  Well ours is the only species which can probe and understand why there is something instead of nothing. There may not be any intrinsic value in anything, but the act of discovery is meaningful.
  
  I just want to point out that ours is the only species that we know of that can do those things.
  It's pure hubris to think that we're the only ones in billions on billions of stars with potentially more than 10x that many planets in the universe that has sapience sufficient to ask the questions. Statistics says it's extremely unlikely that humans are the only sapient life in the universe.
- Oh there's still plenty of ways short of violence against people to solve this. This guy 100% echo chambered himself into thinking there was no other way. The spectrum does not jump straight to killing people after peaceful protests are ignored.
- There's a pretty reasonable societal model (that scales beyond 10 people living in a cave) that has so far prevented sociopatic behavior.
  We have laws and we have democracy to establish them. Whatever happens in your dumbfukistant, in western Europe it's unimaginable to be able to use violence and physical power to claim territory or food. Even a drunken fight in a bar will get you in a lot of legal trouble. E.g. being a stronger ape gets you exactly nowhere in life if you use want your power to dominate. You could use it to create, and you'd be rewarded.
  Very similarly the economic system could be trivially adjusted to conform the societal values and violations would be prosecuted. All this requires is a democratic choice.
  The societies so far democratically have no chosen to abolish capitalism. Although a lot of western-european democracies have severely limited the potential for abuse from this system.
  We don't need to develop mechanisms, we don't need violent protests, we don't need vigilantes. We simply need for people to choose differently. And if they don't, it's their choice.
  Ah, yes, you in your default country definitely need a better democratic system, although Trump did win the popular vote, so I wouldn't hope for that much change tbh.
  
  How well is "western" Europe doing at curbing the global corporations ability to turn the earth into wasteland?
  
  The majority of people in an average western European country want to drive their car and fly to their vacation destination. They also might heat their homes with gas.
  Destruction of climate is not anti-democratic. There are green parties in every parliament and they get 15-30% of votes. E.g. only that many voters consider the issue of climate change to be pressing. The others believe things are fine, or that moderate measures are enough.
  You keep preaching "evil corpos oppress us poor". But this is simply not true. The majority of the population is pretty content with the status quo, and if they weren't they could change it any election cycle.
  
  You are making my point for me. They couldn't do anything about the current system of they wanted to within the system. Consent has been manufactured, packaged, shipped, and bought.
  
  They perfectly can. It requires them to make a collective choices that will require individual sacrifices in order to achieve collective gains (assuming people actually see it that way).
  And that's clearly not in anyone's interest. And you're one to tell them what's wrong or right.
  There's no system. There are free individuals living their lifes as they see fit. But you somehow keep imagining an evil monster that suppresses everyone's free will, while you, the hero, are unaffected.
  
  If you actually believe there is no systemic oppression, and personal choice can change the world, I have no idea what to say except
  
  We have laws and we have democracy to establish them. Whatever happens in your dumbfukistant, in western Europe it’s unimaginable to be able to use violence and physical power to claim territory or food.
  Haha, read any historical account of western civilization. The west has always been great about backstabbing its non-west allies, or even each other.
  People are people, don’t fall for some us vs. them bullshit, you’re just being a tool for someone else. It’s also pretty funny to me that half the countries some Americans look down on have had more women presidents or prime ministers, lol.
  And you can’t seriously say democracy is working as intended when we don’t have campaign finance reforms, and have citizens united in the U.S.? You’re literally living in a world where a billionaire bought a country’s presidential election outcome! What a joke.
  
  Sociopathic behaviour is not prevented, it is rewarded. Stepping on other people to claim more wealth is encouraged. A decent person has no money, in general, and most people are decent. Nobody chose this. Nobody voted for this, and there's no vote which will put an end to it. We are, like it or not, in a situation where we cannot change the system to benefit us (us=the working/middle classes) by peaceful means. The ruling classes are extending their monopoly with every move, and will never willingly give power back. I'm terrified by the prospect, but looking at similar situations in history, I think violence is inevitable.
  
  What are you on about? You can easily vote for far left in pretty much any of the functioning democracies in Europe. And if a radical left party were to win, they could easily implement a profit cap.
  You're talking about some "ruling class" as if we're in a society where such bounds exist by birth right of some sort. Anyone can become a politician and be elected to be the main voice of the country's legislative and executive branches. You don't need violence to radically change everything, you need a majority's approval. And, I'm telling you, your ideas are already out there and they're not selling. They're not selling even peacefully, but you somehow dream that someone will die for them?
  
  Here's my experience as a citizen of the United Kingdom.
  A vote for a party which will benefit the majority of people (which you are calling the "far/radical left") is ignored because of our first past the post political system and because of the mass media, which is rabidly pro-establishment. A lower rate of further education exacerbates this effect. They form an impenetrable system which disallows anything but the tiniest of incremental changes, while the climate and the wealth gap worsen exponentially and relentlessly.
  There is a ruling class, and it does largely depend on birthright. None of these billionaires are self made, look closely enough and you will find seed money in their mercurial rise, usually from a family member. You have your eyes shut if you think we're not ruled by the wealthy. It's a fact. If you want to argue this point with me you can, but you will lose.
  In my country, it's difficult to become a politician, you usually have to get a specific degree from one of three specific universities, which are much easier to get into if you are -you guessed it- rich.
  Which ideas of mine are you talking about exactly? Without some specifics on what you think they are, your last two sentences just don't land.
  
  A vote for a party which will benefit the majority
  We can stop the discussion right here. You clearly know better than the voters themselves what's best for them. In my opinion, it would be the most efficient solution for us to nominate you to be a dictator for life, as you will achieve a better outcome for everyone than them thinking for themselves.
  The rest of your argument continues with insults towards the voters disagreeing with your political views "uneducated, influenced by media, etc". You, obviously, do see yourself as a superior being and thinker.
  I don't think debating democratic choices with you makes any sense. You're anti-democratic.
  
  You are caricaturing my arguments. It's interesting, because you must understand them to a sufficient level to do this whilst not understanding then to a sufficient level to actually consider them. That's quite a mental effort. Either that or you are for some reason understanding them properly, yet choosing to misrepresent them for some reason.

325 comments