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I see so much whining about tankies, and so few tankies.
Once world has defederated from .ml, which is the next instance to be designated the tankie instance?
I've been an active user since before lemmy.world, although I'm new to my current instance. Anecdotal but I now see far more comments to the effect of "tankies sure are gonna hate this", where tankies then never show up, than those where they do.
It's especially comical with the Lemmy.world users as their instance has blocked the largest sources of tankies. Even my alts in instances that haven't blocked .ml don't see anywhere near as many tankies as people griping about these tanky boogymen that have yet to arrive. I've even seen people who obviously aren't tankies or even tanky adjacent being accused of being one. I've been accused of being one for just pointing this all out.
I'll suggest a possibly unpopular opinion: the term tankies is turning into Lemmy's equivalent of "woke" - many of those using the term don't seem to know exactly what it means and its loose definition is expanding toward "anyone I don't like".
Lemmy.world is generally filled with extremely ideological Liberals with no real niche interests represented by Lemmy.
Reddit is getting worse and worse. After all, how could it not? The profit motive ruins everythinh over time, after all. Therefore, the people who leave Reddit for Lemmy generally dislike the direction of Reddit, such as Marxists, Anarchists, and ideological Liberals.
This brings us to Lemmy. Lemmy.world is a microcosm of Reddit, it's the largest explicitly generalist instance. It's the fediverse for people who don't care about the fediverse, it's for refugees from Reddit. The problem is that the leftists are on different instances from Lemmy.world, because they go to the explicitly leftist instances, or other instances for niche interests.
That's why Lemmy.world represents Liberals too ideological to stay on Reddit, but who also aren't comfortable with Marxists or even Anarchists. It's Reddit 2.
I think you're 100% right. The OP and I just had a really good discussion that helped me understand the heart of our disagreement regarding their tanky take is different perceptions of Lemmy population tanky sentiment. I mostly see comments to the effect of "where are all these tanky comments?", a sentiment I share, versus "those aren't tankies, therefore it's not a tanky comment", some of which I think they've seen as tanky apologia. And maybe it is, I'm sure they've had their own unique Lemmy experience. Anyhow, it meant the implications of their statements are interpreted entirely differently between the two of us. This dovetails perfectly with your comment. Not necessarily that they're a liberal, as I can only guess about their beliefs, but that my experience on different, definitely more leftist instances is likely significantly different than theirs on .world.
Yep, I agree. I think a particularly large part of it is that many on Lemmy.world are tangentially familiar with Marxism and Anarchism, but fundamentally have not yet engaged with the source material. A quick example is Marx's view on Government, which gets confused with Anarchistic by Liberals who have only heard "Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society" and stopped there, when Marx has always advocated for a Democratic World Republic.
That's why I try to spend a good amount of time trying to lead Liberals towards Leftist theory like Marx or Goldman, and towards Dialectical Materialism rather than Idealism. The Liberals on Lemmy.world are radical, but directionless, so actual Leftists are scary.
As for OP, they called me a "fascist" for saying voting isn't going to move America left, outside revolutionary pressure will. I have never advocated against voting, and have also expressed my intention to vote for Biden, but OP can't resist when it comes to punching left.
They admitted that they're quick on the draw, which I think explains the punching, but I don't think they're intentionally a bad actor. I think we're all dealing with the application of what you've so eloquently explained: we're talking about the same broad topics but using words and concepts that mean entirely different things depending on the commenter or reader, plus individual personality quirks. We're all definitely not always benevolent, patient, and reasonable, even when when we think we are.
When I put on my old "I'm liberal but think socialism is edgy cool despite misunderstanding what it is" hat from my younger years, I can see how a lot of things just in the few paragraphs we've written can seem really awful or scary. Outside revolutionary pressure? That's China, right? Tanky!
Oh, I agree! I don't think OP is an intentionally bad actor, at all really. I would, however, bet with absolute confidence that they have never actually engaged with Marxism or Anarchism, which is why it would be fantastic if they agreed to read leftist theory. It's just frustrating to see nothing but left punching from OP and judgements on who is left and who is right without engaging with leftist theory themselves.
Your second paragraph absolutely resonates. I myself used to be a "centrist," then a liberal once I actually grew up a little bit, then became a leftist during my college years and have been reading theory and trying to better my understanding ever since. To be called a fascist when I know for absolute fact that I stand to the left of OP just frustrates me.
That all being said, I don't believe OP is bad-faith, just not familiar with leftism and haven't really done any reading. I'd be thrilled if they agreed to read Marx, but they have probably mentally written me off.
Oh, I agree! I don’t think OP is an intentionally bad actor, at all really. I would, however, bet with absolute confidence that they have never actually engaged with Marxism or Anarchism, which is why it would be fantastic if they agreed to read leftist theory. It’s just frustrating to see nothing but left punching from OP and judgements on who is left and who is right without engaging with leftist theory themselves.
What was your stake? You'd lose your absolute confidence bet. Fuck man, I have repeatedly expressed support for anarchists on here. But you know, anyone who doesn't like tankies just hasn't read enough theory, of course. If only they read more theory! /s
That all being said, I don’t believe OP is bad-faith, just not familiar with leftism and haven’t really done any reading. I’d be thrilled if they agreed to read Marx, but they have probably mentally written me off.
I've read Marx, and expressed on here, multiple times, great admiration for Marx and Engels and their writing, and even cited them at points.
Sorry that that's not enough to make me pro-tankie. Fuck, if anything, it made me more anti-tankie.
Sorry, on second thought, you should really explain to me what I believe, you know me better than I do.
You know what? If you'll entertain me, I'll accept that I lost that bet. What leftist theory have you read? This isn't a no true leftist, read more theory purity test bullshit, I am curious what you have read and what your conclusions are. As my comment said, it's frustrating to see nothing but left punching, and calling people fascists with no evidence. Can you understand why that might be frustrating?
Seriously, I am extending an olive branch here. I want to have a productive convo with you and try to come to an understanding. If you don't want to try, that's fine, but I figured I'd try anyways. Like I said, I don't think you're a bad actor.
The Communist Manifesto, Critique Of The Gotha Programme, Theories Of Surplus Value, and various assorted letters and articles. I attempted Das Kapital, but it was dry enough and enough of a slog that I ended before the halfway point.
The Conquest Of Bread, State And Revolution, Anarchism And Other Essays, various 20th century articles and letters from socialist writers and theorists, ML and anti-ML.
Innumerable books and articles dealing with the actual history of socialist movements, especially anarchist movements, either in whole or in passing.
Okay, a very sizeable list. Not doing the whole Read more theory! bit, just suggesting Value, Price, and Profit and Wage Labor and Capital as shorter and condensed, though half of Capital probably covers more than those do. Socialism: Utopian and Scientific is a good read from Engels on Historical Materialism if you care.
As for Lenin, Imperialism is probably his most important work when it comes to understanding a lot of Leftists on Lemmy, IMO. Many Leftists I see form most of their foreign policy positions on the conclusions Lenin provides in it.
As a precursor, I consider myself a Leftist, not an ML, not an Anarchist. I am anti-sectarian, because I believe the path to Socialism will be different in every country. Whether that be Marxism, Syndicalism, Anarchism, the overall goal is to move leftward and collectivize ownership of the Means of Production.
Do you disagree with any of that? Do you believe it enough to consider me a fascist, or was that a one-off kneejerk reaction?
You might just have a more narrow definition of tankie, for me, tankies are about 4/5ths of .ml instances are tankies
What are you on about? lemmy.ml has always been a tankie instance, that was the first Lemmy instance and it was set up by the tankie devs.
And you're on lemmy.world, which has defederated from most of the extreme tankie instances anyway.
I called this back when world defederated from grad. That centrists would declare some other instance to be full of tankies and start trying to get it defederated.
Wasn't very popular at the time.
Anarchists and libertarian socialists aren't centrists.
Also, tankies moving to a more popular instance that tolerates them to harass more people is the most predictable thing in the world. (specifically lemmy.world)
So which instance will this army of bogeymen "move to" once world defederates from ml?
Look at reddit. Tankies infiltrate lefty subs and try to take over all the fucking time. So who knows which instance will be the next one. We don't shift goalposts, tankies find a new angle.
Look at reddit. Tankies infiltrate lefty subs and try to take over all the fucking time.
Yes, they're truly behind every rock. It's not at all that centrists point at anything to their left and scream "tankie!"
So who knows which instance will be the next one.
One thing is for certain. Paranoid centrists will identify one as the source of all their problems and start screaming to burn the heretics.
Yes, they’re truly behind every rock. It’s not at all that centrists point at anything to their left and scream “tankie!”
My favorite was when ToiletPaperUSA, a left-leaning meme group, definitely didn't have half the mod team removed by a handful of tankies who replaced them with their own goons and then subsequently banned and removed all criticism of China until the long-inactive founding mod was reached and restored the old moderators.
I guess I'm just dosed up on shrooms or whatever.
Dosed up on some reddit moderator drama?
I think the shrooms are a preferable alternative.
nazi digg is poorly run and wasn't far enough to the right for you, so you have to hunt heretics on lemmy.
Could be the ratchet effect. Lemmygrad and Hexbear are both explicitly Marxist-Leninist, but .ml is explicitly FOSS and Privacy based, just with Marxist-Leninist admins.
I suppose the "next boogyman" will probably be an instance with a very lax defederation policy like Lemm.ee, db0, or Shitjustworks, if Lemmy.world ever defederates with Lemmy.ml. Either that, or Lemmy.world will jump ship to Sublinks and that will be an entirely different platform.
I mean there are communities dedicated to having a problem with Lemmy itself being developed by Marxist-Leninists. Not sure it'll stop at the instance level.
But hey: Shitjustworks defederated Lemmygrad since the admin doesn't like them and hexbear defederated shitjustworks, so I only ever see these kind of after-action-reports from the folks that go out searching for bad takes from those instances or wherever.
My comment was more to the effect that since Lemmy doesn't really have a large number of Conservatives, the Left in general is the boogeyman for Liberals in Lemmy.world, and they largely won't stop punching leftward until they either become leftists themselves or they leave Lemmy (perhaps via Sublinks?).
whatever one they all switch to so they can spread their bullshit.
Well, you're the first one to own up to centrists' methodology for trying to push lemmy to the right.
Depends. Which one will be banning people for 'Sinophobia' for voicing anything other Critical Support For The Comrade-Chairman?
Why do I get the feeling you got banned and are mad about it?
Why do I get the feeling you got banned and are mad about it?
lmao. I've observed .ml, but not participated, because I saw it was a shitshow early in my migration. Check the Lemmy modlog if you like; I haven't been banned from any .ml community as far as I know. I don't think I've ever even intentionally commented on an .ml community past the first month.
But disingenuous bullshit is the constant fallback of concern trolls like you. Spew enough shit, and someone will eat it up, just like the rest of your circle.
Instead you make inflammatory post about .ml from afar. Thanks for your concern. Maybe you should try ignoring .ml which you supposedly hate so much?
Maybe tankies from .ml and Lemmygrad should stay the fuck out of communities where non-fascists are the majority.
So you just read it to have something to your left to hate?
I guess that's one way to live. You know you can block instances, right?
So you just read it to have something to your left to hate?
No. I read it because I was curious as to whether it was a good instance to interact with.
I found out very quickly that it was not.
But you aren't interested in anything except apologia for tankies. I don't know that you're a 'useful idiot', so to speak, but I do know that you're useful for them.
I guess that’s one way to live. You know you can block instances, right?
I don't even have anything I'm not subscribed to on my feed, lmao.
Watch the goalposts change now from "ML isn't that bad!" to "Well you can just block it!" and, subsequently, it will become "Well the tankies aren't running your communities so why do you care?"
The accusations change; all that remains is the desire to defend their bootlicking friends.
I don't even have anything I'm not subscribed to on my feed, lmao.
So you're mad about something you don't interact with?
It looks to me like you're mad about something you disagree with and blocking them isn't enough for you.
So you’re mad about something you don’t interact with?
It looks to me like you’re mad about something you disagree with and blocking them isn’t enough for you.
"Tankies don't even run your communities, so why are you mad?"
Fucking called it.
That's not even close to what I said.
Frankly, you're just mad that anyone to your left exists and have decided to call them all tankies.
That’s not even close to what I said.
It absolutely is.
"Why are you mad? Just don't interact!" and "Tankies don’t even run your communities, so why are you mad?” differ only in that the latter is more specific about what kind of interaction (I called 'running' while you went for 'presence'), but it's clearly there. But deny even apparent facts and someone will fall for it.
Frankly, you’re just mad that anyone to your left exists and have decided to call them all tankies.
It's hilarious that you think tankies are leftists.
There are many people to my left.
None of them are tankies.
Dude that is super antisemetic
Everything that isn't enthusiastic support of the genocide you love must be antisemitic.
If you haven't seen them you've been lucky. They are definitely out there
The "I barely see any tankies on the fediverse!" types are usually concern trolls who don't mind tankies. Don't take it as genuine.
I barely see any tankies on the fediverse!
Because I block their instances and users on sight :3
Painting this with such a broad brush is just a lazy way to discourage critical thought and discussion. Maybe not your intention but it's unproductive.
"You should try and have a productive discussion with fascists because they have a dab of red paint on them" is not a sentiment that I find productive to cultivate.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the person whose initial comment I responded to was a strawman argument would respond to my comment with yet another strawman argument. I figured it was worth a try but I see you're not really interested in discussion.
I don't see how my response to you was a strawman, except insofar as one might disagree that tankies are fascists with a dab of red paint.
My argument was that suggesting those who have commented on a high tanky comment to actual tanky (tanky_comment:tanky_real) ratio are mostly concern trolls is unhelpful because it writes off dissenting opinions with a simple, if unlikely, solution. I feel you're shutting down discussion by encouraging others to ignore dissent - ignore them, they're just trolling.
You responded by refuting paraphrased text whose content is not only absent in my comment, that message can't even be directly inferred from it, either alone or in conjunction with your original comment. That's textbook strawman - refuting an argument that isn't the one being discussed.
Now is that your interpretation, that the consequence of not writing off anyone who has critical observations regarding all the tanky gripe comments as concern trolls is cultivating the sentiment of talking with fascists? If that's the case, when you skip some steps by not explaining how you came to that conclusion and instead present your interpretation of the consequences as a direct paraphrase of my argument, it comes across as a strawman.
The "There aren't even that many tankies! You're just mad at the TRUE leftists!" comments I'm talking about are pretty inevitably from people decrying anti-tankie sentiment in general, not just people saying "Yeah, tankies are shit, but I don't see them around." As the latter is considerably rarer, saying that generally they're just concern trolls voicing that is correct (based on those presumptions). "Generally" doesn't mean a law, it means a rule of thumb.
This all makes a lot more sense. I've had a different experience. I tend to see more comments like your latter, that they're shit but not around, than the former, although we might frequent different communities. It's also my opinion so it might be selection bias. Now I understand how we'd both interpret your original comment to have very different implications.
There's sure a lot of straw in this thread. You bailing?
"Everyone who doesn't agree with me is a fascist" is not a sentiment that I find productive to cultivate.
Sorry for thinking that genocide under a totalitarian state "Because it will totally wither away bro trust me" is fascist. I'll be sure to follow the Party Line next time, I promise.
Oh yeah, I'm sure you're not misrepresenting entire instances by painting them with a broad brush.
Lazy attempt at sounding like a victim.
Be better.
"Stfu lib"
-a tankie that totally doesn't exist
Meanwhile the people shrieking about tankies day and night are what? Not concerned?
Meanwhile the people shrieking about tankies day and night are what? Not concerned?
Pretending to not know what concern trolling is. Classic.
Uh huh. Your concern is noted.
"Anyone who disagrees with me is a concern troll". Are we on c/conservative? Cause there's sure a lot of conservative brand cope in here.
^" Anyone who disagrees with me is a
concern trolllib".Do you see how absolutely petulant your ilk sounds?
Permanently Deleted
I get called a tankie and a trumpist by people who don't like that I think Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Far as I'm concerned, it's just something centrists say when they know their support for genocide is indefensible.
They are definitely out there
Under your bed. Have fun finding the next tankie instance.
It's the lemmy.world boogeyman. Nothing seems to piss off World users more than asking them for an example of all these tankies. The only way the OP can even respond to objections is by strawmanning hard.
There's a lot of tankies. You're one of them. Although you pretty narrowly focus on "biden bad" propaganda
I don't think they're a tankie, just a tankie apologist. Though one could always look at the "There are 9 fascists sitting at a table" argument, I don't think they're ideologically completely aligned. Just enough to be willing to slobber on their boots.
That you can complain about fascism while unironically using this textbook fascist logic is enlightening.
That you can complain about fascism while unironically using this textbook fascist logic is enlightening.
Do you think the "9 fascists sitting at a table" argument is 'textbook fascist logic'?
No, that's just common sense. It's the tankie apologist/concern troll business. You seem to be comfortable labeling dissenters in a way that lumps them in with an out group even if there's no clear indication they are part of that group.
This is common fascist behavior, for example during the United States's McCarthy era. While persecuting leftists was the main goal, McCarthy and his cronies would also persecute anyone who objected, labeling them communist apologists or just communists themselves, ensuring their objections were disregarded.
Man, in this very thread the progression I'm bitching about happens with "There aren't any tankies!" comments.
"Leaves of three, leave it be" isn't a law, but it's quick advice. If you're out in the woods of Appalachia and see some ivy with three leaves, chances are it's Poison Ivy. "Generally posters claiming there aren't many tankies on the Fediverse are concern trolls" isn't a law, but it's quick advice. If, in the Fediverse, of all places, someone is not merely claiming to have personally not seen many tankies, but firmly saying (or implying through additional statements) that there aren't many tankies on here, they are generally a concern troll.
As for tankie apologists, I don't see why a tankie apologist should be regarded differently from a Nazi apologist, or any other fascist apologist. Ardent apologism by people not part of the in-group is a thing, and surprisingly common. Like atheists who praise Christians to high heaven (pun intended), or right-wing minorities playing "They're not that bad" games about the alt-right.
I don't understand people who comfortably deal in their own generalizations or absolutes. They're comforting because they're simple but they're rarely correct because they're colored by the random chance of your personal experience and your innate biases. This is why science education is so important: it teaches you that whichever observations you non-systemically generate are probably at least somewhat bullshit. They might make sense on a personal basis until you challenge the assumptions they're based on.
Your experience is entirely different than mine. I'm very active on Lemmy and I rarely see tankies as defined. Guess I'm a concern troll! Or am I a tankie apologist? I also see you calling others that don't meet your criteria concern trolls or tankie apologists. I guess we're all concern trolls, apologists, or whatever else you want to say we are so you can write off whole cloth anyone that disagrees with you. On the bright side, you proudly proclaim your biases and assumptions are facts, so it's easy enough to know it's probably best just to block you.
"You just want to write off anyone who disagrees with you!"
lmao
Sorry for not having a scientific study of Lemmy's population ready to satisfy you. It's funny - any time I bring receipts, regardless of how many or how upvoted, it's always the same story - "It's just a few bad apples! There's not a lot of them! They don't bother you!"
If you make a claim about tankies but never back but beyond the claim of personal experinece, then you at least owe it to yourself to understand that you may be wrong.
Alright, what exactly kind of evidence do you think is possible to gather in this situation? Realistically speaking? Am I to ignore my eyes and (metaphorical) ears because they aren't a scientific study?
Rigorous studies trump anecdotal evidence, but anecdotal evidence trumps a complete absence of evidence.
Go away, stalker.
I'm not stalking you, I just call out people with shit takes, and you spew a lot of shit everywhere.
Weren't you going to block me? Whatever happened to that?
I've noticed that whenever a concern troll gets noticed for how often and consistently they regurgitate their bile, they always throw a fit. A shame. No one takes pride in their work these days!
It's like they forget Lemmy is a small enough community that people will recognize usernames and patterns of behaviour. They shouldn't be surprised at being called out on multiple occasions.
Nothing worse to them than pattern recognition.
Which bile would that be?
Go away, stalker.