stop asking for a karma system

Saying what you mean can be impossible when every sub demands "respect" or "civility" instead of honesty, accuracy, and appropriate behavior.

Sometimes telling someone to go fuck themselves is entirely appropriate.

Sometimes explaining to someone why they're being a moron is entirely appropriate.

Yes, you can navigate those situations with G-rated kum-by-yah language, and you can eat yogurt with a fork. But demanding anyone do that is aggravating fucking nonsense.

Intense moderation can create a forum where there's never reason to poke someone over what an asshole they're being - but that's not what anyone's doing, here. They're mostly protecting trolls, by refusing to comprehend what trolling is. It's not when you say dumb shit you don't mean and people get mad at you, like some playground argument with one smirking child in a shouting match about the make-believe. It's people spreading disinformation with textbook fallacy. It's emotional abuse with "do you still beat your wife?" level manipulation. It's not deep. It's neither hard to spot nor hard to call out.

But what's currently forbidden is calling it out.

Insisting people take it in good faith is failure. That's exactly what trolls demand. It is the only way trolling accomplishes anything, ever. If they just said dumb shit nobody believed, there'd be no problem. But the appearance of a sane argument, and the trappings of "debate" around their infuriating horseshit lies, create false legitimacy. It helps abusive dishonesty spread. It is actively ensuring that whatever "free marketplace of ideas" is supposed to filter out total garbage, can't.

And anyone who falls for them going 'punishing me would only make me stronger!' is incapable of dealing with a smirking child. They're just fucking lying. It's not deep, or hard to spot. Call their bluff and see what happens. The answer will apparently blow your mind.