What happened to the Crimea bridge and why is it important?
What happened to the Crimea bridge and why is it important?
The bridge suffered damage after one of its sections was blown up, killing two people and wounding a child.
Traffic on the single bridge that links Russia to Moscow-annexed Crimea and serves as a key supply route for the Kremlin’s forces in the war with Ukraine came to a standstill on Monday after one of its sections was blown up, killing a couple and wounding their daughter.
The RBC Ukraine news agency reported that explosions were heard on the bridge, with Russian military bloggers reporting two strikes.
RBC Ukraine and another Ukrainian news outlet Ukrainska Pravda said the attack was planned jointly by the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and the Ukrainian navy, and involved sea drones.
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Why are you quoting a member of the Golden Dawn as if Nazis were a reliable source of information? Are you a Nazbol?
Lmao I had no idea he was to be honest. You're right. Let's get something else then. (And no I'm certainly fucking not.)
A couple of western media articles discussing the split the existing language law was causing in the country:
2000: Ukraine wages war on Russian language
2012: Russian language debate splits Ukraine
2012: Ukrainians(far right) protest against Russian language law
2014(when the law actually occurred): Ukraine Revokes Linguistic Rights
This last one is the most interesting, also 2014 from Time: Many Ukrainians Want Russia To Invade
Within two days of taking power, the revolutionary leaders passed a bill revoking the rights of Ukraine’s regions to make Russian an official language alongside Ukrainian. That outraged the Russian-speaking half of the country, and the ban was quickly lifted. But the damage was done. With that one ill-considered piece of legislation, the new leaders had convinced millions of ethnic Russians that a wave of repression awaited them. So it was no surprise on Friday when a livid mob in Crimea attacked a liberal lawmaker who came to reason with them. Struggling to make his case over the screaming throng, Petro Poroshenko was chased back to his car amid cries of “fascist!”
Remember how that law never went into effect and in fact regions have the right to have secondary official languages? Including Russian?
Also, that it wasn't a law furnishing new modes of repression but a law repealing the granting of rights to minority languages? And the law was by an interim government? And Right Sector and shit massively lost votes after all that?
Yes, Ukraine had a political divide roughly among the Russian/Ukrainian native language rift, caused by Russia (Empire, USSR) by the Russification programme, by Russia (Federation) stoking it with hybrid warfare. Ukraine was torn between going to the west, into the EU (NATO wasn't nearly as popular), or towards Russia's economic bloc. Becoming part of Russia was never on the table, that's always been a small minority position of a minority position.
That very much changed towards majority support for NATO accession after the annexation of Crimea (and, no, Crimeans not being asked doesn't explain the shift), and to absolutely overwhelming after the 2022 invasion.
Russia overplayed its hand. Massively: They could've kept Ukraine in alignment limbo, maybe even have them turn eastwards, but they just had to get greedy and annex and invade. They've also lost all the hybrid warfare opportunities among e.g. the Russian minorities in the Baltic countries.
And maybe you should read more primary sources instead of random Anglo press articles. Or read the articles, for that matter, things like
Lviv's language war was ignited by the death of a popular local folk-singer, Igor Bilozir. At an outdoor cafe one evening in May, he and a friend were playing his Ukrainian ballads while a group of Russian youths at the next table were singing songs in Russian.
The Russians warned Bilozir to stop singing in Ukrainian. He refused. They came to blows. The fighting spilled along the street and the 45-year-old slumped to the ground after a blow to the head. He died three weeks later in hospital, becoming for Ukrainian nationalists an instant martyr.
"He was killed because he sang songs in his own language," says Mr Parubi. Russian newspapers turned things around and said the dispute was over the right to use the Russian language.
which isn't exactly playing into your narrative.
Didn't you, just some comments ago, talk about talking to actual people? I have three Ukrainian families living in neighbouring flats, having fled the war. One of them ethnically Russian, though the kids are refusing to speak the language.
Yes, there had been grievances. Grievances so bad it justifies an invasion? Hell no, not just not the same ballpark, but not even the same galaxy. Moscow, OTOH, is checking all five points (one would suffice!) of the definition of genocide. It doesn't surprise me, or their parents, in any way whatsoever that the kids are refusing to speak Russian, they've seen shit.
Remember how that law never went into effect and in fact regions have the right to have secondary official languages? Including Russian?
Also, that it wasn’t a law furnishing new modes of repression but a law repealing the granting of rights to minority languages?
I know what it was. The point here is not what it was but that it existed, what it did, and what environment it existed in.
At every point up until now I've been told that this didn't happen, just moments ago you called it a hallucination, and now you're seamlessly transitioning as if that wasn't the case.
And maybe you should read more primary sources instead of random Anglo press articles.
If I had linked to Russian language content we both know exactly what you would have said in response. This conversation has proceeded along the lines of "deny, obfuscate, admit but deny significance." If I had given you a primary source, which would have had to be in the Russian language, then you'd have called it russian propaganda.
The only thing I ever said was that the entire reason this separatism kicked off was because of the language law introduced by the fascists in the maidan coup/revolution. I am absolutely correct about that. Had that event not happened we wouldn't be where we are today.
Grievances so bad it justifies an invasion?
I've never said that. I'm really not that interested in talking about the invasion itself anymore as it doesn't help us end the war. I would prefer nobody were ever invaded, but that's not the situation we have right now.
At every point up until now I’ve been told that this didn’t happen,
You were told that "outlawing Russian" didn't happen. Which the 2014 thing didn't even attempt to do. The only people claiming such things are characters like the Nazi you quoted as well as Vatniks.
If I had given you a primary source, which would have had to be in the Russian language, then you’d have called it russian propaganda.
Depends on where it's from, Russia doesn't have a monopoly on the language and before the invasion press freedom wasn't completely dead in Russia. Still, finding sensible takes even among the Russian opposition would be difficult as liberal forces within Russia never really bothered to analyse Russian imperialism, being busy with battling corruption and authoritarianism. Random high-profile example: Navalny's take on Crimea.
the language law introduced by the fascists in the maidan coup/revolution.
There were Nazis among the protestors, yes, but they were a tiny minority. The protests started over Viktor Yanukovych betraying an election promise of his: EU accession talks. They then quickly became quite bloody with Yanukovic sending snipers and passing this kind of shit.
When the government is shooting at you you don't tend to question the deeper ideological stances of at least half-way decently organised people handing out riot shields to duck behind. Not really an opportune moment.
After Yanukovych's impeachment (which was a bit iffy the Rada played fast+loose with procedure but they had the authority and the votes) an interim president and government was installed (by that very Rada, not protestors) and him fleeing to his masters in the Moscow, the law happened (or rather didn't), then came new elections, both presidential and for the Rada, where right-wing parties of all ilk lost quite a number of votes. Oh, also, Russia invaded Crimea, Donbas, and Luhansk. There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen, and all that.
That "Separatism", as in the founding of the "people's republics" was kicked off by Russian green men collaborating with local criminals. Doing it like that isn't too surprising Russia is practically a mafia state. Just because one happened after the other doesn't mean that one is the cause for the other.
I have another interesting tidbit on the snipers thing:
This is an interesting article from the BBC going into the many sus things about this event and painting the picture that the far right was likely involved. One of the most interesting things about it is that the bbc has deleted it, which is the first instance of sussy journalistic war censorship I've seen. The original no longer exists.
It could also be that they took it down because it's all a collection of people saying different unprovable things.
What's for sure is that it was Berkut who sniped protesters, plenty of matched bullets to prove that one, they also are -- or rather were -- the exact kind of bastard cops to do such things, the whole organisation got dissolved in 2014 due to their brutality (not just sniping) during the protests.
Who started what and exactly who shot or tortured whom where and so on we'll probably never now, at least not better than we know now (there's been court cases). I also don't doubt that Berkut caught some bullets, Ukrainians aren't the kind of people who cower and retreat when being shot at. Russian special ops or Right sector escalating the situation or, heck, why not a Berkut Agent Provocateur. It's pointless, we'll probably never know. Well the Russians might still have written documentation about orders or something but on the Ukrainian side all available evidence has been gone over with a fine-toothed comb, nothing more to get there.
The issue here is that with the ukrainian side taking the "there was no gunshots from any maidan protester buildings" position it eliminates all trust. Folks in crimea don't trust anything they say they'll do now or in future because they see them as lying about core narratives that led up to this situation. Meanwhile you have research papers in american universities saying things like:
This academic investigation concludes that the massacre was a false flag operation, which was rationally planned and carried out with a goal of the overthrow of the government and seizure of power. It found various evidence of the involvement of an alliance of the far right organizations, specifically the Right Sector and Svoboda, and oligarchic parties, such as Fatherland. Concealed shooters and spotters were located in at least 20 Maidan-controlled buildings or areas. The various evidence that the protesters were killed from these locations include some 70 testimonies, primarily by Maidan protesters, several videos of “snipers” targeting protesters from these buildings, comparisons of positions of the specific protesters at the time of their killing and their entry wounds, and bullet impact signs. The study uncovered various videos and photos of armed Maidan “snipers” and spotters in many of these buildings.
This academic investigation concludes that the massacre was a false flag operation,
Directly contradicting forensic evidence. Those were Berkut bullets in protestor's bodies. Unless you're saying that Berkut gave (and then collected) weapons to Right Sector etc at which point yes it would've been a false flag but not one that would exonerate the bastards.
The issue here is that with the ukrainian side taking the “there was no gunshots from any maidan protester buildings” position it eliminates all trust.
Where are you hearing that kind of stuff. Also who else but protestors is supposed to have shot Berkut cops dead, the question if at all is who started it.
I don't know man but shit doesn't add up.
Where are you hearing that kind of stuff
Friends. I told you I personally know people in the region through various connections. I spent 2 weeks in Crimea myself in 2009, which is obviously not a lot of time but I have some comrades I personally know there. I had some in Ukraine too but I've lost contact with everyone and have no idea if they're dead, rounded up by the conscription gangs and forced to go to combat, or arrested by SBU.
Navalny’s take on Crimea.
I couldn't care less what this fascist's take is, and I find it really sus that you admonished me on the mistake with whoever that golden dawn guy was but then refer to a fascist yourself while calling him a liberal.
There were Nazis among the protestors, yes, but they were a tiny minority. The protests started over Viktor Yanukovych betraying an election promise of his: EU accession talks. They then quickly became quite bloody with Yanukovic sending snipers and passing this kind of shit.
When the government is shooting at you you don’t tend to question the deeper ideological stances of at least half-way decently organised people handing out riot shields to duck behind. Not really an opportune moment.
A small group that functioned as a vanguard. And played the pivotal role in its success. This has been written about quite a lot. I assume you're familiar with vanguardism I've seen you use enough terms here to think you're a little above average in understanding of political ideologies.
The sniper thing is rather disputed, at least by my socialist friends in crimea. They claim this was performed by the right sector fascists. What the truth is of it though I'm not really sure, the research I'm familiar with seems rather inconclusive. Personally I think the picture is that there were probably both fascist and government shooters involved.
https://mronline.org/2021/12/11/the-maidan-massacre-in-ukraine/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266855828_The_Snipers'_Massacre_on_the_Maidan_in_Ukraine
After Yanukovych’s impeachment (which was a bit iffy the Rada played fast+loose with procedure but they had the authority and the votes) an interim president and government was installed (by that very Rada, not protestors) and him fleeing to his masters in the Moscow, the law happened (or rather didn’t), then came new elections, both presidential and for the Rada, where right-wing parties of all ilk lost quite a number of votes. Oh, also, Russia invaded Crimea, Donbas, and Luhansk. There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen, and all that.
"Procedure" is whatever people will popularly accept in an event like this. You get to make it up as you go along and as long as the various factions willing to do violence will agree with it you're good.
That “Separatism”, as in the founding of the “people’s republics” was kicked off by Russian green men collaborating with local criminals.
There's some fuckery involved with Russia certainly but it's not as simple as that. Some of it was a communist effort. I don't know if it was you earlier in this thread but I did mention earlier that I have friends there that aren't around anymore. Several communists that were involved were killed, either in mysterious circumstances or going missing. The communist party of the dpr also endorsed Alexander Zakharchenkov as he was ideologically beneficial to their goals but he was killed in a cafe bombing and pro-Russia leadership (Strelkov) conveniently took over. Ukraine was blamed for that bombing but I am personally convinced it was Russia that did it to align the balance of power in the emerging states with themselves. Infighting in the party (along with the murders and disappearances) then later led to its merger with the CPRF which further convinces me that they were involved in eliminating the various groups that sought independent interests.
I couldn’t care less what this fascist’s take is, and I find it really sus that you admonished me on the mistake with whoever that golden dawn guy was but then refer to a fascist yourself while calling him a liberal.
You know where those "fascist" accusations come from? Precisely that kind of stuff, "X belongs to Russia". Anyhow I cited him as an example of the opposition FFS, not because I share those kinds of view which should've been obvious. As to "liberal": That's exactly what he's classed as in Russia. After the 2022 invasion portions of the opposition did start to reflect on imperialism in a more thorough manner than "doing things by force bad but actually yes Ukraine is Russia" but with the current state of things, well, prison, keeping their head down, or in exile. Not to mention that opposition is not exactly a majority position the majority position is "I don't care about politics that's a thing for politicians I just want to have a job and a Dacha". Utter depoliticisation. Fatalism runs deep in Russia.
“Procedure” is whatever people will popularly accept in an event like this. You get to make it up as you go along and as long as the various factions willing to do violence will agree with it you’re good.
Well, point being that they didn't have to make it up but an ordinary impeachment procedure would've taken a while. In any case any iffiness resulting from that, questions about constitutionality etc. were made up for by elections not soon after. Also, Yanukovych already had fled, the office of president was de facto without incumbent.
Yet you referred to the whole thing as a "coup/revolution". It was, big picture and the result, neither of those two but the people not liking that the government they elected reneged on promises and then had themselves new elections for a new government: Neither did suddenly the military reign (coup), nor did the country get a complete make-over, new constitution etc. (revolution), it was a, well, let's call it a special electoral operation. In more established democracies those things happen more smoothly and without violence, but early elections aren't exactly a particularly rare thing. Yanukovych probably assumed his handlers would send him backup just as they had in Belarus.
Yanukovych's protest law btw was much iffier when it comes to constitutionality as the Rada didn't actually have the votes to pass it. Also, shit only really hit the fan once he doubled down like that.
Some of it was a communist effort.
Yeah I know but they're irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Communists of the type you refer to exist all over Europe, they're tiny, cultist, splinter factions. Well-organised but without the manpower to do anything, least of all stage a revolution. Do I need to remind you that "done by people calling themselves communist" doesn't imply "popular support", which you were insinuating. In this situation they were useful idiots for the FSB.
Communists of the type you refer to exist all over Europe, they’re tiny, cultist, splinter factions.
This is not true in France, Portugal, Spain, Greece, Norway or Austria where communists have significant presence in governance and rapidly rising support. I agree with you that we're struggling elsewhere on the continent, for the most part. I think the generalisation is unfair given these aren't exactly unimportant countries. Are you American? This topic is much more interesting and would be way less hostile than it has been up to now between us.
Not those kinds of communists. GUE/NGL parties range in self-identification from communist to democratic socialist and are indeed quite large and established, even if they don't have huge electoral successes in many countries. S&D is generally way more popular, socdems of various intensities. GUE/NGL is proportionally strongest in Greece, Cyprus, Portugal and Ireland (at least by EU election results I can't be arsed to go through national ones). They're not the kind of party who would stage a coup and then falsify elections.
The splinter groups I was talking about are the like of the German MLDP who get less than 0.1%, compared to Die Linke which isn't unaccustomed to double-digit results. Best MLDP result ever was 0.4% in the 2006 Sachsen-Anhalt state elections. Which, of course, fits into their ideology, they believe that capitalism can only be overcome by a revolution and its vanguard. You know the type, in fact I think you're deeply familiar with it. Occasionally they manage to get a seat on the municipal level. They don't have a group in the European Parliament because they don't get in.
GUE/NGL
I'm not actually referring to this bunch, although they're certainly one you could. I am referring mainly to national results. I think however that your measurement comes from "election results" whereas this is misleading with regards to communist activities in any given country. Take france for example where you could measure the activity of communists by the results of the PCF. This however is not the sum of communist activity or strategy in the country. The vast majority of Melenchon supporters would be communists if the soft option did not exist. Most of us are revolutionaries in one breath and democratic socialists in another. It entirely depends on the circumstances. I live in Britain, I firmly believe revolution is the only path to socialism, does that mean I'm a revolutionary in the british conditions though? Fuck no it doesn't there is no chance of a revolution right now. Thus my activity takes place through other channels and work, in the trade union movement and in electoral groups.
The splinter groups I was talking about are the like of the German MLDP who get less than 0.1%, compared to Die Linke which isn’t unaccustomed to double-digit results. Best MLDP result ever was 0.4% in the 2006 Sachsen-Anhalt state elections.
Germany is a huge problem right now there is a massive swing rightwards occurring. The socdem to fascist pipeline was in full swing in the recent election. You're correct that the left has collapsed there. I do caution against over using electoral results as a measure of communist activities though, none of us believe in electoralism as a pathway to socialism so activity in the electoral system is more about recruitment, spreading socialist education and generally used as a sort of thermometer for the trend of things.
Most of us are revolutionaries in one breath and democratic socialists in another.
Oh I don't doubt it. The thing is: The ilk I was referring to don't do democratic socialism even when living in democracies. They may not boycott elections but they're not really trying to win them, either, the motivation just isn't there because they don't believe it could achieve anything.
Germany is a huge problem right now there is a massive swing rightwards occurring.
2/3rd of AfD voters don't agree with the party platform. And not just in the "haven't read it" sense but right-out "yeah I don't like them this is a protest vote fuck all those Wessis in Berlin" type of deal. And the east being full of open Nazis isn't exactly new, neither is them infiltrating civil society there the trouble is, and was, since the 90s, that the GDR had no civil society to speak of because politics was something the party did. What we see right now is a combination of protest voters having tried all other parties and are now left with the AfD (and still don't get that if they want a party that shares their ideas, they should bloody fund one) and of the far-right getting bold (which will likely mean they'll overplay their hand), all in enabling circumstances that have been in place for at least a decade. Oh, Russian disinfo whipping the conspiracy crowd right from "corona dictatorship" into "climate dictatorship". We didn't have that for long that's relatively new.
The percentage of people with a closed right-extremist world view is actually larger in the west than in the east, yet election results are the exact opposite. Open Nazism is rarer in the west because Antifa, while not necessarily larger, has a way easier time drawing upon wider civil society so the Nazis keep their head down. There's xenophobia and feelings of disenfranchisement in the east, the AfD plays into it, and if Wagenknecht ever gets around to actually founding her party she'll scoop those votes straight up. "Unemployed before refugees" and "trans rights are human rights but fuck neopronouns" is by and large about as far as you need to go to calm those waters, a thing Die Linke never managed to do. Oh, and having selective expropriation of means of production in the programme won't hurt. Going all-out would not be popular but targeted initiatives, completely different matter.