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For example, the quote about slaves in Exodus was not a teaching. It's historical context about law at that time. That verse was intended to prevent brutalities towards slaves
It's not a teaching, it just explicitly tells people what to do and not to do. Makes sense.
(which at the time were either hired labourers or in indebted servitude who literally sold themselves to pay off a debt, they were freed or "released" when the monetary value of their debt was paid off. It's not the same as the term for slavery we commonly associate with the it today).
Hired laborers and indentured servants whom you could beat and abuse, and had no freedom of their own. Hmm, I wonder if there's a word for that...
The wording that if a slave survives for a day or two was used to determine intent, as it was considered that if someone survives for a couple days after being punished then something else was also the cause of death, and not a direct result of the punishment enacted.
Ultimately the point here is that this isn't a "teaching" in any way. Some things in the Bible are just historical facts and context.
It's not a teaching, it just explicitly tells people what to do and not to do. Makes sense.
Timothy 2:12 (I know you mean 1 Timothy even though you didn't specify, because there's a 1 Timothy and a 2 Timothy)
You're very clever, congratulations.
also needs context, because that scripture is about spiritual matters. It's like a chain of command for the purposes of order. This is something that you cannot pull a single scripture out and use only that as an example. There are many other scriptures that expand on this. For example, a man/husband is supposed to treat his wife like his own body and like a "weaker vessel" (implying a delicate and gentle approach), and anyone who does not hates himself and God.
You can give all the context you want, that's sexism, plain and simple.
It's like a chain of command for the purposes of order.
A chain of command you cannot change, that is not based on knowledge or experience, but on what's between your legs.
Corinthians 11:5-6 - (which Corinthians? There's two of them)
Or not so clever, I guess.
We have this wonderful new technology called google. Feel free to use it.
Or not, since it was created by the devil of science.
how is this torture? It's just about head coverings, and one that's often taken out of context. Verse 11 and 12 say *"Besides, in connection with the Lord, neither is woman separate from man nor is man separate from woman. 12 For just as the woman is from the man, so also the man is through the woman; but all things are from God."
The Bible doesn't teach dominating and torturing people, for one.
Forcing women to shave their heads sure sounds like dominating to me...
Basically neither man or women are better than the other, both are from God and that's all that matters.
Men aren't forced to shave their hair, and using your analogy, they are always higheron the chain of command than women.
Titus 2:9-10 - You could literally replace "slave" with employee and "master" with boss or CEO, and then no one would say boo. As I mentioned earlier, the term slave is not the dehumanizing one we often use. Its modern counterpart is very close to "employee".
Except CEOs aren't allowed to beat up employees, and employees are free to leave.
Colossians 3:22-24, Leviticus 25:44-46, Peter 2:18 - same argument, because the term slave in these verses are not what you are attributing to it.
"Employees, be subject to your CEOs with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse."
And all of this not even talking about the rampant homophobia, genocide, etc commanded in the bible
Hired laborers and indentured servants whom you could beat and abuse, and had no freedom of their own. Hmm, I wonder if there's a word for that...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_slavery
"Broadly, the Biblical and Talmudic laws tended to consider slavery a form of contract between persons, theoretically reducible to voluntary slavery, unlike chattel slavery, where the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner."
"Ancient Israelite society allowed slavery; however, total domination of one human being by another was not permitted.[16][17] Rather, slavery in antiquity among the Israelites was closer to what would later be called indentured servitude.[15] Slaves were seen as an essential part of a Hebrew household.[18] In fact, there were cases in which, from a slave's point of view, the stability of servitude under a family in which the slave was well-treated would have been preferable to economic freedom."
"Although not prohibited, Jewish ownership of non-Jewish slaves was constrained by Rabbinic authorities since non-Jewish slaves were to be offered conversion to Judaism during their first 12-months term as slaves. If accepted, the slaves were to become Jews, hence redeemed immediately. If rejected, the slaves were to be sold to non-Jewish owners. Accordingly, the Jewish law produced a constant stream of Jewish converts with previous slave experience. Additionally, Jews were required to redeem Jewish slaves from non-Jewish owners, making them a privileged enslavement item, albeit temporary. The combination has made Jews less likely to participate in enslavement and slave trade."
"The Torah forbids the return of runaway slaves who escape from their foreign land and their bondage and arrive in the Land of Israel. Furthermore, the Torah demands that such former slaves be treated equally to any other resident alien."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude
"Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years. The contract, called an "indenture", may be entered "voluntarily" for purported eventual compensation or debt repayment, or it may be imposed "involuntarily" as a judicial punishment. "
Yes, there's a lot more in that Wikipedia page, but Jewish history expands well past the Bible and the 1st century. I'm just focusing on the Biblical period.
Slavery pre-American colonial settlement is far more nuanced than people realize. Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast goes into immense detail in the Humane Resources episode (and that's "humans as resources" in the title).
You can give all the context you want, that’s sexism, plain and simple.
Is it though? Because 1 Corinthians says "For just as the woman is from the man, so also the man is through the woman; but all things are from God.” Which is to say neither men or women are above the other, they are equal to God.
A chain of command you cannot change, that is not based on knowledge or experience, but on what’s between your legs.
True, but an employee at a large company cannot become the CEO (yes, I know it's "technically" possible, but how often does that happen?). I know you'll disagree on this, and that's fine, we can disagree. But my position is that this "order" isn't oppressive in any way. There's no privilege or power in the role (there isn't supposed to be, but we know that it has been abused countless times). It's only meant to be a role to be assign leadership to a clearly defined person in the family. A "leader" doesn't control the people they are leading, they simply the person that gives guidance for the group as a whole. Anyways, we're going to disagree on this.
Or not so clever, I guess.
We have this wonderful new technology called google. Feel free to use it.
I knew which Corinthians was being referenced. I was pointing out that OP keeps referencing scriptures without giving all the details. Which matters because they've been touting their expertise and deep knowledge in the topic.
Forcing women to shave their heads sure sounds like dominating to me…
Men aren’t forced to shave their hair, and using your analogy, they are always higheron the chain of command than women.
Men (in ancient Israel) are required to do other things, like cut the tip of their genitals off.
Taking a single example is cherry-picking. There are many things that were required of both men and women, and people in all different stations.
Except CEOs aren’t allowed to beat up employees, and employees are free to leave.
Because in modern days we have extensive and well established legal codes and policing infrastructures. Back in the Bible on a farm being worked by many people, the closest settlement would have been many hours, if not days away. There was no local police station, no 911 or emergency services. Land owners were thus expected to be the ones enforcing the law on their land. We also have extensive and meticulous laws covering all kinds of topics, scenarios, and conditions that are recorded in explicit detail. Back then most people didn't read, and if they did they definitely didn't have any access to a copy of the law. As such laws were often simple and not complex so that the average person could grasp and remember them.
That being said, slavery in the Bible isn't what you think it is (as I mentioned earlier in my comment). A slave would only receive such punishment if they did something extremely heinous, like murder someone.
Edit: formatting, clarification
"Broadly, the Biblical... equally to any other resident alien."*
What you forgot you mention about the wikipedia page, is that these are not facts, but quotes from a religious scholar.
A religious scholar, who would greatly benefit from people thinking of positively of his religion.
If google puts it on their wikipedia page that them avoiding hundreds of millions in taxes is in context a really good thing, would you believe them?
Slavery pre-American colonial settlement is far more nuanced than people realize.
I don't even need to respond to it, it just speaks for itself.
Is it though?
Yes. It's literally "All of you are equal, some are just more equal than others".
Which is to say neither men or women are above the other, they are equal to God.
Ah, I see. "Seperate but equal".
True, but an employee at a large company cannot become the CEO (yes, I know it's "technically" possible, but how often does that happen?).
It is possible, and it does happen.
In fact, every employee can start their own company and become its CEO.
A more apt analogy would be, a company where white people can become managers and C-suite, but black people cannot.
Would you support this?
That being said, slavery in the Bible isn't what you think it is (as I mentioned earlier in my comment). A slave would only receive such punishment if they did something extremely heinous, like murder someone.
"The condition in which one person is owned as property by another and is under the owner's control, especially in involuntary servitude."
Yep, that fits.
I'll never understand how people like you can sink to such levels, defending slavery.
And again, the rampant homophobia.
A religious scholar, who would greatly benefit from people thinking of positively of his religion.
This assumes all religious scholars have a nefarious agenda. I don't doubt some or many do, but no more so than the final population average. There are many who genuinely want to help others and believe in teaching and sharing peace.
I don't even need to respond to it, it just speaks for itself.
Because you think "slavery" means the same thing across all time. That level of willful ignorance speaks for itself also.
Yes. It's literally "All of you are equal, some are just more equal than others
No, it's all are equal but not everyone can have the same job and responsibilities. Not everyone can be the owner of a company (unless you're WestJet).
Ah, I see. "Seperate but equal".
Just "equal".
In fact, every employee can start their own company and become its CEO.
I did specify "large corporation" in my example. Thanks for ignoring that.
Yep, that fits.
Involuntary servitude under the law (back in the era we're talking about) had clear definitions. It was often invoked to collect a debt and could only be held until the debt was paid off, not longer. Captured non-Hebrew enemies were also sometimes put under involuntary servitude. But they were required to either convert, at which point they would be freed. Or else sold off to a non-Hebrew.
I'll never understand how people like you can sink to such levels, defending slavery.
And I'll never understand how people can have such reductionist ways of thinking. "Slavery", as it's used today, is technically "chattel slavery", which is different. They have similar letters in English, but are not the same thing. Some translations even use different terms because the modern English word "slavery" has a different meaning. Indentured and voluntary servitude were commonplace back then. Today it isn't. Although the relationship between an employee and employer share many of the same definitions. "Slaves" under voluntary servitude were even able to "seek a new master". Basically find a new job. Such cruelty.
This assumes all religious scholars have a nefarious agenda. I don't doubt some or many do, but no more so than the final population average. There are many who genuinely want to help others and believe in teaching and sharing peace.
Well, this one clearly does, as he's trying to whitewash slavery to make his religion look better. Seems pretty nefarious to me.
Because you think "slavery" means the same thing across all time
They are ot free to leave, and can be abused by their masters at will. It's close enough.
No, it's all are equal but not everyone can have the same job and responsibilities.
Except the high jobs and high responsiblilities are only available to men.
You know your arguments about this sound familiar to those used by pro-segregationits. I would say something about strange bedfellows, but since you're agruing for thr same thing, I guess it's not so strange.
Involuntary servitude
Involuntary servitude
Of course, you forget to mention how none of this forgiveness applies to women, who weren't freed after six years/the debt being paid off, and could instead be forcibly taken as a wife.
And of course slaves taken from neighbouring countries weren't to be returned or freed, they were slaves for life.
"Slaves" under voluntary servitude were even able to "seek a new master". Basically find a new job.
Voluntary servitude? Maybe.
Were they able to get a new job under involuntary servitude? No. So slavery.
But indentured servitude with physical abuse is still slavery, and the bible supports it. No way around it.
There's a saying that when democracy doesn't favour conservatives, they don't turn from conservatism, they'll turn on democracy. As it turns out it also applies to christans: when christians find out the bible supports slavery, they don't turn of the bible, instead they'll start saying slavery was actually good. And lo and behold...
And of course the rampant homophobia.
You really should listen to Dan Carlin's podcasts. (Even if it's not for the sake of this discussion, his content is unmatched)
I really don't care about your religious podcast, especially one that tries to whitewash slavery.
It's not like it comes with more pay like a job. It's basically just more work.
It does come with pay, as well and power and influence.
Because that's what you're choosing to hear. You're ignoring all the other things I've said.
I'm hearing reality and ignoring the delusional falsehoods you're saying, yes.
You're also ignoring the part where women slaves could be forced to marry their masters, where men could not.
But they were completely equal, right?
Anything with abuse is abuse and is abhorrent. The Bible says as much.
I didn't say that for the part where it says how you can beat your slave.
It didn't say that for the part about dashing babies into rocks.
It didn't say that for child murder.
No, the Bible records it. The Bible also places a huge emphasis on showing love to your neighbour and your enemy.
Oh, I see. When something supports agenda then it's the bible's core message, but when something doesn't look to good for it, then it's just recorded in it, and also out of context.
How convenient.
If you haven't noticed, the bible frequently contradicts itself.
No one here ever said slavery of any kind was good. Not in the slightest. You might be confusing your preconceptions for something I said.
Huh, so this wasn't a quote used by you?
LMAO! Dan Carlin is far from religious, and the last thing he does is whitewash anything. In fact, the stuff he talks about is blood curdling and may even make you vomit everywhere.
Sure bud, I'll rephrase. I really don’t care about your totally non-religious podcast, especially one that tries to whitewash indentured servitude.
If you’re referring to those mega churches and people like the Duggars, then ya. I agree with you there and agree that’s wrong.
Them too. But you only need to look at how the christian churches protect pedophiles and abusers, help them escape the law and reoffend again to see how much power and influence they get.
Plus, the catholic church alone is worth billions, with land holdings, historical artifacts, etc.
Becoming a high-ranking member grants you influence over your underlings and delusional people, food and shelter for the rest of your life, etc.
You know well that this is about judicial punishment. If a slave murders someone, for example
Feel free to quote the verse where it says you can only beat slaves as judicial punishment.
No. It’s a reality and a fact that not every single word in the Bible is a commandment. There has to be context and even just basic information about events, people, cultures, etc.
And that context just happens to be in form of direct commandments. Oops.
Is it a good thing that people go on welfare, or is it preferable to starving? Again, this is where we get into the definition of the word. Think about it, how would it be preferable to be mistreated, beaten, and abused?
I think plenty of people would prefer to be poor and free then to be fed and a slave.
But if you think otherwise, would you be in favor of putting all homeless and poor people in involuntary servitude? Since it's preferable to welfare and starving, according to you.
And then of course there's all the homophobia in the bible, but that seems to be a positive to people such as you who support sex based discrimination.
All of this is true. Hence why the “children” (these acts of abuse) of Babylon the Great (false religion) need to be dashed against a wall.
Of course.
And when the bible says all homosexuals must be killed, what metaphor is that? Or is it missed context?
You have staked your arguments to be the complete opposite of what I have to say.
I tend to do that when the person I'm arguing against supports such despicable things.
The fact that you immediately dismissed Hardcore History as a “religious podcast” and still maintain that it “whitewashes” anything, all without even looking up the podcast
I looked up dan carlin and he has a some christian podcast called Word Christian Fellowship podcast. But sure, not religious or bias.
telling that you are unable to be objective in the slightest in this discussion.
Unable to be objective by agreeing with you that slavery was a good thing? Are you listening to yourself?
(which tops Podcast charts in multiple categories, primarily history)
Are you his publicist or something? You're trying really hard so sell his stuff.
It seems your forgot to answer this:
Is it a good thing that people go on welfare, or is it preferable to starving? Again, this is where we get into the definition of the word. Think about it, how would it be preferable to be mistreated, beaten, and abused?
I think plenty of people would prefer to be poor and free then to be fed and a slave.
But if you think otherwise, would you be in favor of putting all homeless and poor people in involuntary servitude? Since it’s preferable to welfare and starving, according to you.
And then of course there’s all the homophobia in the bible, but that seems to be a positive to people such as you who support sex based discrimination.
