If you only criticize civilian casualties when Palestine resists, then your concern isn't civilian casualties. Your concern is Palestine resisting massacre.
If you only criticize civilian casualties when Palestine resists, then your concern isn't civilian casualties. Your concern is Palestine resisting massacre.
This meme is from 2004. History repeats itself.
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I'm mostly pro Palestine, but using this picture with the subtitle 'history repeats itself' and therefore portraying what happened at the festival, and the other slaughter missions as a tiny goofy missile, feels kinda disproportionate. Don't you think?
No. Hundreds of thousands will die in response to hundreds dying. The comic is still fully accurate even if "a single missile" is still condemnable.
Hamas isn't resisting they snuck uo on civilians to murder women, children, the old, and the crippled and took over a hundred hostage to slowly slaughter on video live before the world.
Where are the Palestinians resisting this behavior. No society would tolerate a neighbor doing that.
A good time line would have Israelis and Palestinians working together against monsters instead of killing each other but the honest truth is that the majority of Palestinians support terror like the majority of Israelis support displacement of the Palestinians.
What do you propose Israel does? Shall we begin an era of endless terror by proving it works?
Shall we begin an era of endless terror by proving it works?
Just look at the US military, we already have
This isn't a good reason
I felt just like this after 9/11. I don't know enough about your country to tell you what the right thing to do is. But I wish that the USA could go back in time and just gradually assassinate Al Queda with the CIA instead or something. Those occupations were doomed from the start.
The CIA is literally the reason the Al Queda exists. has consistently been the biggest force funding and training terrorists groups around the world. Al Queda is just the modern iteration on the Mujahideen whom US was propping up in the 80s.
Yup. Listen to the latest season of Blowback podcast. CIA sheltered/evacuated a bunch of Al Quaeda leaders right before the invasion of Afghanistan began.
The US government at the time did not want to do any such thing. Project For A New American Century, the think tank most of the Bush administration officials came from, openly wrote about how they were hoping for a "new Pearl Harbor" they could use to take the US into war with Iraq. Later, President Bush got a memo about how Al Qaeda was going to attack the US mainland and he did nothing. Then 9/11 happened and the government lied the country into a war with Iraq. What part of this makes you think they were going to do anything about Al Qaeda (other than giving them more funds maybe)?
You're right, I wish they had done the opposite.
Would've been living in a better world. (Cue that one Al Gore alternate reality SNL skit.)
Where are the Palestinians resisting this behavior. No society would tolerate a neighbor doing that.
They aren't showing you those, because it doesn't fit the narrative they want you to adopt.
They also didn't tell you that the concert just happened to be adjacent to a military base and to anyone who saw it, it was pretty apparent the military base was the actual target.
Ah yes, those Hamas fighters couldn’t tell the difference between a DJ’d festival and a military base.
Stop making shit up. Were the babies accidental military combatants?
The beheaded babies?
The claim for which no evidence exists, that was wildly discredited and walked back by everyone that pushed it?
Those babies?
https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-ministers-shown-horrific-video-hamas-attack-2023-10-12/
No only are you wrong, you’re literally defending people who again literally massacred babies.
You’re sick in the head.
Did you read the article you are sharing? In that same page is written:
There were no images to suggest militants had beheaded babies -- a particularly explosive accusation that first emerged in Israel's media and initially confirmed by Israeli officials.
I never said beheaded. The other person did.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/12/photo-baby-dead-hamas-israel-palestine-blinken/
Feel free to actually click the pictures of you’re so certain Hamas never massacred babies.
It also is really concerned with the “beheading” aspect which again, I haven’t brought up. There’s images of shot and burned babies.
Again: you’re sick in the head and defending people who literally looked at babies and shot and burned them.
Al Jazeera is the mouthpiece of the Qatari ruling party. You know: The people who are hosting the Hamas leaders. That’s like linking to jpost.
I'm not talking about who shoots the biggest rockets and who kills more people here. I'm talking about portraying a literal slaughter fest as a tiny lil rocket, mosquito sting or whatever, which causes no harm at all. This is not the right comic & subtitle to show what happened 'today'. At least in my opinion. Because it's not disproportionate to what happened.
But feel free to disagree, it you think it is. To me OP is more or less mocking the victims and I find it distasteful. Especially because people were involved, who weren't even culturally part of this ethnical conflict in the first place.
And no I'm not part of team both sides bad, because this conflict involves more than two sides and in the end people in Gaza suffer the most.
Where did I mock the victims? Do not put words in my mouth. Can you not make a half-sound argument without lying?
By disproportianting what happened. How you can not see that is beyond me. Just try to reflect on what you posted. Slaughtering hundred civilians = tiny mosquito rocket.
'History repeats itself'.. but this level didn't happen before.
From what I can see, @matcha_addict@lemy.lol is not mocking the victims of this tragedy, but rather criticising the media for writing about the israeli deaths caused by the hamas attack, yet hardly making a sound about the palestine deaths caused by israel.
It IS NOT a disproportionate representation. THAT'S THE POINT.
I am very sorry you fail to realize what death Israel will doll out in response, but this comic is completely accurate in the proportions displayed.
You LITERALLY have fighter jets and bombers striking back against ... paragliders with guns...
Again, NO ONE except fucking losers are saying Hamas did anything good. That doesn't make murdering dozens of thousands of Palestinians OK.
I don't think disproportionate response doctrine from countries like the US and Israel should come as a surprise after more than half a century of conflict. Why murder 100 innocent people of your opponent when you know they will murder 1000 innocents of your people in response?
The issue isn't whether anyone is surprised by it.
It may not be a surprise but it's still disgusting and worth calling out.
Take 9/11 for an example, in response to a few thousand dying, America invaded Iraq (who was not even responsible) and killed several orders of magnitude more people. As well as looting their wealth, subordinating their government and economy to American interests, and effectively occupying them for two decades. Anytime an American says "never forget" they should be reminded how thoroughly soaked in blood they are.
Likewise, when zionists shed crocodile tears for a few hundred dead festival goers who were depraved enough to go raving only a few short kilometers from the world's largest concentration camp. They must be reminded of what they have done to Palestine. Invasion. Displacement. Occupation. Ethnic cleansing. Apartheid. Imprisonment. Genocide.
When it comes to war, there can be no holdbacks because hesitation means life or death.
So anyone who follows the Geneva Conventions is a doomed fool?
"history repeats itself" as in the people who only condemn needless killing when Hamas does it, but ignore the Palestinian cause the rest of the time.
It's almost like motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances matter and not just body count. For example, intentionally targeting civilians to maximize civilian deaths is not the same as accidentally killing civilians with collateral damage while trying to minimize civilian deaths.
Guess which side this is, then:
Scores of people, mainly women and children, have been killed in multiple air strikes on the main road connecting north and south Gaza, as people carried out an Israeli order to flee their homes.
According to the Ministry of Health, at least 70 people have been killed in three separate air strikes on the road, with the latest killing at least 40.
The Israeli army said in a statement on Friday that civilians must leave Gaza City in the north, and that they would not be allowed to return "until we say so" and until "a statement is issued allowing this".
However, locals have reported a number of attacks on the Salah al-Din Road since then. Survivors, speaking to local media, implored others not to make the journey for fear of being targeted by the Israelis.
"Do not leave," a distraught survivor of the attacks told local media.
"They bombed the convoy. They bombed it on Salah al-Din Road. They bombed the ambulances."
Another survivor said the attacks were a "direct targeting of women and children".
"I was in the truck. There were about 200 people. 90 percent were women and children. We took the main road that the entire world knew we were taking. My entire family were with me. Out of nowhere, they dropped a bomb. Everything was black and I lost conscience for 10 mins," they told local media.
"When I woke up I saw a mother lying with her baby, whose brain was right next to him. I heard the ambulances then they bombed again. I took cover and after a few minutes tried to check the damage, then they bombed again."
When Israeli soldiers are bragging about raping and torturing people, it's very clear what their intentions are
Source?
That's troubling if true, and if it is, do you believe said soldiers speak for the entire Israeli government? Hamas's atrocities are official policy.
Thanks for the link.
So one officer 7 years ago, who had the book thrown at him for his crimes by Israel. His actions are clearly opposed by his government and he was punished for his behavior. This isn't the smoking gun @matcha_addict was implying it is.
Do you think Hamas will punish its own rapists, murderers, and kidnappers?
The officer, whose name remains barred from publication, served in the Defense Ministry’s Civil Administration, which is tasked with overseeing the day-to-day management of the West Bank. The officer, a major, was responsible for issuing permits for Palestinians to enter and work in Israel, a position of power that he repeatedly exploited in order to receive sexual favors from Palestinians.
Wow, you sure dismissed that as an isolated incident real quick!
I’m sure it never happened again now that they caught the only guy who got caught for doing it!
Hamas is not a state or government. It is a militia to fight occupation. It is nowhere near as organized as Israel with its governing body. You cannot equate the two.
Israel does not oppose this. There are mountains of evidence of Israelis torturing and raping children, pregnant women and elderly Palestinians. There is mountains of evidence of Palestinians being burned alive, or forced to destroy their own homes with their bare hands. The magnitude of cruelty is unmatched.
Do you want more evidence? I am happy to provide. But it seems you reject it even when presented evidence.
Hamas is not a state or government. It is a militia to fight occupation.
Incorrect. Hamas was elected as the government of Gaza in 2006 and there hasn't been another election held since.
There are mountains of evidence of Israelis torturing and raping children, pregnant women and elderly Palestinians. There is mountains of evidence of Palestinians being burned alive, or forced to destroy their own homes with their bare hands. The magnitude of cruelty is unmatched.
Source?
Do you want more evidence? I am happy to provide.
Yes, please do.
But it seems you reject it even when presented evidence.
What evidence was I presented with that I rejected? The one article I was given (by someone else) does not prove systemic atrocities like you implied. It was an example of one criminal who was punished by Israel for his crimes.
Thanks! I appreciate you providing sources. You've given me a lot to chew on and it's good to have additional context.
Reading some more, it seems like there is rampant mistreatment of children on both sides of this conflict, if anyone is worthy of sympathy in this conflict it's children.
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/%E2%80%9Ctreated-animals%E2%80%9D-palestinian-children-face-inhumane-treatment-israeli-run-prisons
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinianThe military prison abuse issue is one I wasn't aware of, that sounds pretty terrible. Clearly the military prisons need more oversight and the courts need reform. This one does seem like an example of systemic Israeli injustice.
I wonder what the best approach is to rehabilitate kids who attack soldiers with stones? It seems like they're being treated like future enemy soldiers, which may or may not be true. In any event it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy, given the additional animosity systemic abuse like this must engender.
Wouldn't negotiating peace immediately remove Palestinians from the Israeli military court's authority? Seems like constant attacks just ensure that they remain under its jurisdiction.
I haven't found any articles about attempts to address this problem, I'm curious what if anything is being done in Israel about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/05/palestinian-boy-mohammed-abu-khdeir-burned-alive
The murder of Mohammed Abu Khedir was a terrible crime, and the people responsible were brought to justice by Israel.
[Mohammed's murderers] Ben David was sentenced to life in prison and an additional 20 years. ... On 4 February, the two minors were sentenced. One was given life imprisonment, the other was sentenced to serve 21 years.
Wow, talk about a biased source!
It is hard to imagine a more hypocritical display than the crocodile tears of the same leaders who perpetrated the massacre of 2,200 Palestinians in Gaza last year, more than 500 of them children, now feigning outrage at the murder of one more.
According to wikipedia regarding the duma arson attack:
On 3 January 2016, 21 year old Israeli settler Amiram Ben-Uliel was indicted for the murder, along with an Israeli minor, for participation in planning the murder. In addition, along with two others, they were both charged with one count of membership in a terrorist organization.[3][4]
In 2020, Ben-Uliel was convicted of three counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder, three counts of arson and of conspiring to commit a racially motivated crime,[5] as part of a "terrorist act".[6] However, he was acquitted of the charge of being a member of a terror organization.[7][8] He was sentenced to life imprisonment.[9]Again, criminals who were severely punished for their crimes by Israel.
Rapist criminal, punished and convicted by Israel.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2023-09-05/ty-article-opinion/israels-humiliating-practice-of-strip-searching-palestinian-women/0000018a-61b0-daa9-a78f-efb765a30000 ( https://archive.ph/e43iD )
Being strip searched sucks but if someone is suspected of being armed it doesn't seem unreasonable if there's probable cause. If there isn't probable cause the soldiers should be reprimanded. If the IDF account is credible the search seems like it was done professionally by female solders. I'm not sure why this ranks among the other grievances, but this is an op-ed after all.
Of all these only the military prison for kids reeks of systemic injustice. Most of your examples are criminals who were punished by Israel for their crimes, motivated by the cycle of animosity. If the IDF were issuing orders to rape and murder non-combatant civilians you might have a case for equivalency but I see no evidence here of anything that can justify intentionally targeting civilians like Hamas has.
That's just one of countless examples from a two seconds of googling. It's the height of intellectual dishonesty to try and frame it as an isolated incident.
Hamas' official policy is resisting occupation and massacre, not committing it.
SOURCE?
The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim. But sure, I'll still respond. From Hamas' official website:
Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.Nice quote. How about a few more?
Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing
- an imam of Hamas, 2008
Suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next. Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.
- another imam and Hamas legislator
In order to annihilate those Jews. ... O Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. O Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.
- Speaker of the Hamas parliament, 2012
The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them. ... Throughout history—from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times. ... They slayed the prophets, and so on. ... Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth—the Jews must be behind it.
- a member of the Hamas parliament, 2012
We all remember how the Jews used to slaughter Christians, in order to mix their blood in their holy matzos... It happened everywhere.
- Hamas spokesman, 2014
This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests.
- Hamas press release, 2000
The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.
- The former 1988 Hamas charter, but also a hadith in which islamists believe
Hamas’ official policy is resisting occupation and massacre, not committing it.
Hamas' official policy is genocide and they just committed a massacre last week.
I addressed something similar to the first article you linked in another comment. The gist is that, no, that is not their official policy, and that contradicts with their official charter, posted on their official website.
Yes the article I linked above discusses the revised charter. I see why you chose to share it rather than the original.
Hamas' original charter of course was explicitly genocidal:
Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was in fact the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions.
The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:- The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia),
- The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective,
- The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and
- The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories. ...
After some general explanatory language about Hamas’s religious foundation and noble intentions, the covenant comes to the Islamic Resistance Movement’s raison d’être: the slaughter of Jews. “The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”
Regarding the new one, the one you linked:
A Kinder, Gentler Charter?
On May 1, 2017, Hamas issued a revised charter. Gone were the “vague religious rhetoric and outlandish utopian pronouncements” of the earlier document, according to analysis prepared for the Institute of Palestine Studies. Instead, the new charter was redolent of “straightforward and mostly pragmatic political language” that had “shifted the movement’s positions and policies further toward the spheres of pragmatism and nationalism as opposed to dogma and Islamism.” Nonetheless, the analyst was struck by “the movement’s adherence to its founding principles” alongside newly crafted, “carefully worded” language suggesting moderation and flexibility.
Israel immediately dismissed the group’s effort to promote a kinder, gentler image of its once avowedly bloodthirsty agenda. “Hamas is attempting to fool the world, but it will not succeed,” a spokesperson from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office predicted.
In fact, the new document differs little from its predecessor. Much like the original, the new document asserts Hamas’s long-standing goal of establishing a sovereign, Islamist Palestinian state that extends, according to Article 2, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea and from the Lebanese border to the Israeli city of Eilat—in other words, through the entirety of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. And it is similarly unequivocal about “the right of return” of all Palestinian refugees displaced as a result of the 1948 and 1967 wars (Article 12)—which is portrayed as “a natural right, both individual and collective,” divinely ordained and “inalienable.” That right, therefore “cannot be dispensed with by any party, whether Palestinian, Arab or international,” thus again rendering negotiations or efforts to achieve any kind of political settlement between Israel and the Palestinians irrelevant, void, or both. Article 27 forcefully reinforces this point: “There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital.”
The most striking departure from the 1988 charter is that the 2017 statement of principles and objectives now claims that Hamas is not anti-Jewish but anti-Zionist and, accordingly, sees “Zionists” and not “Jews” as the preeminent enemy and target of its opprobrium. The revised document therefore modulates the blatantly anti-Semitic rhetoric of its predecessor but once again decries Zionism as central to a dark, conspiratorial plot of global dimensions.
For centuries, Jews have been blamed for causing the anti-Semitism directed against them. The new Hamas charter perpetuates this libel, arguing, “It is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity” and who are therefore responsible for the conflation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.It seems like Hamas revised some of the more objectionable language in the original, but they are still Hamas, and their intentions are quite clear both by word and deed.
The comment I linked to you in response to a comment making the same claims you're making. All of your points should be addressed in the comment I linked. Is there any part of the comment I linked you that you think is incorrect? Or is there something you think I left unaddressed? Please let me know.
It seems like Hamas revised some of the more objectionable language in the original
It's a quite big change, not mere paraphrasing or slight changes if that's what you're implying. Hamas changed radically in that time, as I explained in the comment I linked, and the document reflects that.
but they are still Hamas, and their intentions are quite clear both by word and deed.
Intentions of what? Do you mean your original claim above? Again, I already talked about why that's false. It would be easier if you address my argument instead of make the same claims again. The only genocidal entity by word and deed at the moment is Israel.
Did they just downvote you for asking a source? is this reddit all over again?
while trying to minimize civilian deaths
If that's what they're trying to do, they really fucking suck at it.
And the motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances don't matter a bit to the victims and their loved ones.
(They're definitely not trying to do that either.)
While they do certainly look different, the end result of a death by malice or by ignorance is the same.
Yes, it's not a perfect caricature, Crimea river
Rules of the internet: you can safely discard everything that comes before the ", but"
If ignoring context helps you feed your bias, go for it.
The soundness of your argument should not depend on your stance. It is a common tactic to state that you are "pro-X" but criticize X, because people are more likely to sympathize with your criticism that way. The commenter you replied to is simply reminding us of this.
That is lemmy.ml in a nutshell.
This is nothing new. Often the actions of Israel are portrayed in the worst way possible. As a quick example: The UN considers everyone under 18 a child, hamas starts recruiting at 14. When the IDF does a raid and kills one of these members the Arab media screams „Isreal has slaughtered children“
This is why I switched to being more pro Israel
Ignoring of course the countless children they kill who aren't part of hamas. The ratio of children to adults killed by Israel can only be reached by doing it on purpose.
You "switching sides" because you don't like the media reporting on these murders is a joke and I can only assume a lie, because it doesn't make sense.
The media reporting stuff doesn't change what is happening nor the morals and ethics involved. Silly to blame the media for you choosing to support the murder of innocents.
It’s on purpose, but on the hamas side, they use children and civilians in general as human meat shields. They fire their rockets from schools and hospitals, hide their equipment in residential areas. Just to scream „Israel bad“ when one of these outpost gets attacked
How convenient, when israel kills civilians its because palestine is hiding behind them, in their own country, being bombed. Its only heartless civilian massacres the other way around.
It seems so, if you gloss over the fact that Hamas is using unguided rockets to throw in the general direction of Israel and Israel is using precision ammunition to target the places the first were fired from.
So civilians killed by israel are even more egregious then. Like that strike on evacuees that just happened.
You're suggesting that intent doesn't matter, causing accidental civilian deaths while defending one's self is an act morally equivalent to intentionally targeting and murdering civilians. I disagree. In most legal systems and ethical systems intent matters a lot.
And palestinians are defending themselves from the much deadlier attacks and long term military occupation of their country and borders.
Don’t try to claim moral superiority in a blood feud where both sides commit atrocities.
As if the cartoon this thread is about wasn't claiming moral superiority for the other side.
Im mainly here to give the „Hamas is a resistance movement“ crowd a reality check
They are a violent resistance movement, opposing a violent colonialist movement.
Israel is expanding into the West Bank, not Gaza. They are resisting nobody. Israel even removed all of its citizens from that area. They are terrorists. They are founded by and doing the bidding for Iran.
Yes the Israelis don't kill children for throwing rocks and then call them soldiers
I'd like to add even more context: ~45% of Palestine is under the age of 14.
Is condom use against their religion?
Palestinians do not have consistent access to clean water, no I don't think they have consistent access to condoms.
“Palestinian women are not having lots of children because they don’t know about contraception, or can’t access contraception,” says Sara Randall, an anthropologist at University College London, who co-authored the 2006 investigation. “So one has to conclude that they actually want lots of children.” source
FYI links to her study, about Demography, not access to contraception - lead to a 404 page.
Here's a prrtty informal survey about Gazan access to contraception, it sort of suggests they have, like I said, inconsistent access to contraception.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31856794/
The article you linked to makes many excellent points. When you're poor, bored, and chock full of bombing-induced PTSD, having many kids is seen as a good idea.