Canadians divided on talk of sexual orientation in schools, poll suggests
Canadians divided on talk of sexual orientation in schools, poll suggests
In a new poll, nearly half of Canadians say they support the notwithstanding clause to ensure that schools tell parents if their child wishes to use a different name or pronoun.
In a new poll, nearly half of Canadians say they support the notwithstanding clause to ensure that schools tell parents if their child wishes to use a different name or pronoun.
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I wish these polls would ask those same parents if they support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child.
Because here's the thing; if you think you deserve to know what's going on with your child, that's fine. That's a healthy thing to want to know. And if your child thinks there's something you should know, they'll tell you.
But if they haven't told you, it's because you've never given them any reason to believe that it would be safe to tell you, and that is entirely on you.
@Voroxpete @sik0fewl Many probably would. Many “parental rights” people view their children as more akin to property than people.
Legally a parent is a custodian of a child which comes with rights and obligations along with a set of laws that regulate that relationship.
Yeah, this is what gets me. Some parents are shitty, and I can see the issues with this as it's not unheard of for kids to be kicked out by homophobic parents after being outed, etc
But in the flip side, parents are legally responsible for their kids try increasingly cut off from the information that might be important for caring for those kids. They can ask a doctor to not disclose drug use, and apparently now a teacher not to disclose their gender identity decisions, leaving the parent might be clueless up to the point where it grows into a major issue and blindsides them.
Life isn't an episode of Leave It To Beaver. Not all kids have daily sit-downs with their parents where they discuss in detail everything about their lives. At a certain point, a lot of kids often start cutting out their parents thinking that it's part of establishing their own independence, and sometimes -especially with issues of sexuality/etc - they may be embarrassed to bring those forward to their parents.
Do parents have a right to know everything about their kids lives? Maybe not. Parents DO have a responsibility towards help educate their kids, help them navigate life and deal with major life changes and decisions. Educators have historically had a duty to keep parents informed of major developments in school which might affect their children or - if they have evidence the child is at-risk - to report cases of abuse to the appropriate authorities.
It's a tightrope, for sure, but expecting parents to do their job while potentially withholding vital information is not a good look either, and a lot of decisions from government (on both sides) lately are starting to have a "it's for the children" authoritarian feel.
I would support my kids regardless of how they choose to identify, their sexual orientation, etc, but when stuff is happening in regards to that I would damn well want to KNOW so that I can support them properly (possibly including learning more myself)
My niece told her parents she was questioning her gender within a few months of realising it herself (according to her). And this kid is very much your typical closed off teenager who doesn't like to talk about anything that's going on in her life. But when it comes to the big, important shit like this, kids will share if they feel safe doing so.
If your kid doesn't want to tell you about something like this it's because you have failed to convince them that it's safe to share that kind of information with you.
My niece shared about this with her while family, basically right away, because she knows that all of us are openly supportive of trans and queer rights. She sees how we treat our queer and trans friends and partners. She knows without a shadow of a doubt that she will be loved and supported, so she was able to open up without fear.
If your kid doesn't feel the same way about you, you are the problem. Not them.
See there you go, accusing people and putting words in their mouths. Nobody said kids were the problem (or even "a" problem) but not every kid feels the same way and that sometimes has little to do with parenting.
But feel free to go and accuse everyone of being a bad parent because things worked out for your niece. I know more than a few people who were damn good parents and their kids did eventually come out to them, but it took awhile and some digging to get to it while in the meantime those same kids were experiencing real issues in their social life because of it but their parents were unaware of why (though on most cases they know something was off). Once they finally got through it the dialog with their parents was great but it took quite awhile and needless suffering in the meantime. In one case the child was concerned that a rather religious family member (not the parent) would find out and ostracize them. When that family member did find out over the longer course they were actually very supportive, if a bit confused.
Having something in policy one way or the other is idiotic. Some kids might get beatings for having low grades, but that doesn't mean we don't decide to keep parents informed about academic performance, it means we should report unsafe home environments and use judgement in other cases.
If the teacher believes there's a real risk of harm then that should not feel compelled to share that information by gov't, but at the same time if something is potentially adversely affecting a child they shouldn't be compelled by black-and-white policy NOT to engage the parents, and early interaction may benefit all sides.
The "all kids who don't want to talk to their parents must be raised by abusive rednecks" is just a shitty argument. Even adults sometimes have hidden fears or worries that aren't bounded in reality, but allow unrealistic "what if" scenarios to hold them back. Kids are in a worse state with less personal experience and a bombardment of other people's opinions, situations, social media and many other factors than can bring anxiety even in the best of home environments.
Do you have any children?
@PenguinJuice @sik0fewl @Voroxpete Three.
Ah, I see. So you're just playing devils advocate then.
I think that's a great talking point, however I strongly doubt it's true.
I don't have kids so I've got no pony in this race, but I do have a dog. He's not property, I'm not his 'master', but he is 100% my responsibility, which is why I keep him on a leash whenever we leave the house. It's why I spend my time watching him when we're at a dog park instead of sitting on my phone like the other people there.
@baconisaveg I’m not the only person suspecting what “parents’ rights” means to many or most of the rightwing advocates of it. While I often side-eye people using Youtube to back up their claims, I do think this particular Youtuber succinctly lays out the often problematic use of “parents’ rights”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNOmFBw1I_M&t=6s
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=mNOmFBw1I_M&t=6s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I wish these polls would ask those same parents if they support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child.
They did, and they do: "Just under half said that [teachers should have to notify parents] even if a child tells their teacher they don’t feel safe informing their parents."
That doesn't imply there is danger. If the child tells you that they are not safe around their parents, you're not going to exactly take that lightly. It's not "Oh, hi Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Given that you are such wonderful, upstanding people, contrary to your child's claims, we'd like to inform you that your child, formally known as Fred, has decided to change their name to Sue." You're going to be rolling in with child protective services and the full force the law behind you to investigate.
Perhaps you are suggesting that child protection doesn't work, but if that's the case, that needs to be publicized more as most people are under the impression that these services provided by the government are effective.
What? I didn't say any of that. I didn't say anything about child protection. I was just saying what the poll asked and what people responded. I'm not saying anything about it or implying anything about child protection. I'm giving information directly from the article.
To be clear:
OP asked if people "support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child."
The poll asked if the teacher should have to inform the parents of a child's wishes even if the child says they don't feel safe telling their parents.
According to the article, just under half of respondents said yes, the teacher should have to notify parents even if the child doesn't feel safe doing so.
What? I didn't say any of that. I didn't say anything about child protection. I was just saying what the poll asked and what people responded. I'm not saying anything about it or implying anything about child protection. I'm giving information directly from the article.
To be clear:
OP asked if people "support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child."
The poll asked if the teacher should have to inform the parents of a child's wishes even if the child says they don't feel safe telling their parents.
According to the article, just under half of respondents said yes, the teacher should have to notify parents even if the child doesn't feel safe doing so.
That's not quite the same thing.
My question is this; how many people would support outing a child if they knew, with absolute certainly, that doing so would cause the child harm.
Phrasing the question around the child's feeling of safety allows people to dismiss it as a non-issue, because they simply do not trust children to evaluate threats accurately.
But when it comes down to it, very few people would willingly subject a child to harm in the name of "parents rights." Not if they knew with absolute certainty that such harm would occur. And that's why I think this hypothetical is important. In reality you would almost never know, with absolute certainty, that a child would be in danger. But what this question establishes is that, fundamentally, the child's right to safety overrules the parent's so-called "right" to surveil their children.
Having established that, the rest comes down to the simple fact that an educator is not in a position to properly and fully assess whether a child would be at risk from that information being shared. Lacking that knowledge, they should err on the side of safety, which means trusting the child to make the decision. Information can always be shared, but it can never be unshared.
I can agree that it's not exactly the same thing. But I think the implication of the question and answer are what you're looking for, and the direct question would skew the results because most people wouldn't admit they support abuse outright.
Exactly. The child not feeling safe does not equate to there being endangerment, at least in theory, because the parents the child has raised concern about will become under the watchful eye of child protective services when the teacher raises that concern as well. We don't exist in a vacuum. You would not have one without the other.
Again, maybe you're trying to imply that those services are not effective. That very well may be true, but if that is the case, then that needs to be made known. Most people have faith in government services and are making decisions based on that understanding.
Again, I'm not saying anything about those services or anything about what the teacher will actually do. I'm only talking about the question and the answer. If you disagree with how I'm reading the question or interpreting the answer, that's one thing, but stop reading into (or putting into) anything I'm saying to be about the effectiveness of child protective services or the morality of teachers.
Again, I’m not saying anything about those services or anything about what the teacher will actually do.
They are not separable concepts. The are intrinsically linked. Again, we do not exist in a vacuum. You cannot talk about one without the other coming along for the ride.
I get that you like having a neat and orderly space where you can focus on one individual idea and forget that everything else exists. Who doesn't? But this poll is conducted in the real world, where people look at the entire world when considering things. They have no reason to be concerned about a parent inflicting harm based on revealing name information because they understand that the child raising concern about their safety around the parents will also trigger additional supports to address that issue.
Again, you may be trying to imply (since you won't speak to it directly) that those supports are not effective. That very well may be true, but if that is the case, then that needs to be made known. Most people have faith in government services and are making decisions based on that understanding.
In summary: Your original comment doesn't address the comment it is in reply to. It fails on faulty logic.
They have no reason to be concerned about a parent inflicting harm based on revealing name information because they understand that the child raising concern about their safety around the parents will also trigger additional supports to address that issue.
This is where I disagree. Your entire premise that what I'm pointing out implies something else is based on a fallacy.
Frankly, you're giving people way more credit for how deep they would be thinking about the implications of their answer.
Just because you answered yes because you thought this was the case, doesn't mean everyone, or even most people would think that.
And, if you desperately want my opinion on what you're arguing... I think it's disgusting to answer yes to that question thinking that it doesn't matter because the system will protect the children. You're giving the system too much credit, and while most might, not every teacher or school official will be on the student's side.
My kid got a tongue piercing when he was 18, and put a lot of effort into making sure I wouldn't find out. It took 3 days. I told him it was a poor choice and to take care of it so he minimized his chances of bad outcomes. When I asked him why he didn't tell me right away, he said he didn't think I'd get angry or anything, he just didn't want me to disapprove.
Sometimes kids will take a while to let you know things for reasons other than fear of reprisal, but parents in that situation can usually accept that their kids will take time to be ready.