3d ago

A question about "they" / "them"…

I am neuro-divergent. I struggle with remembering minutia that aren't, coincidentally, just luckily the minutia that I glimpse, once, and never forget. I state this not as an excuse but as a statement of fact and I am terrible at remembering people's pronouns. I cannot even remember people's names. When I see people I know, I can remember who they are, what we have done together, where we have been, what we have seen and even the tone of voice they might use to exclaim at an occurrence or upon some eventuality but – yet – I often cannot remember their names. Pronouns are like parts of their names.

And, so, I tend to address everyone with "they" / "them".

In my limited experience, this only tends to annoy the anti-woke conservative types who renounce the very concept of pronouns and believe that one should only ever be addressed as "he" / "him" – assuming that a penis hangs between their thighs – or "she" / "her" otherwise. (A musing: How do they know? Also, what if it's cold? Or they're upside down? Quandaries within quandaries!)

BUT... I am open minded and I can believe that others, too, might be offended by my cop-out, including open-minded, non-mysoginist, non-bigots who do understand why people elect to be addressed under non-Victorian pronouns.

I have recently had reason to pause and wonder about this. I struggle with pronouns but I do try my best and so, I'm asking: for which reasons might someone object? Tell me, LGBTQ+ community.

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24 comments

If you use "they/them" to refer to a binary trans person, it'll make you sound bigoted, like you're de-gendering that person. For example, using "they/them" for a trans woman who goes by she/her pronouns will make her mad: she'll think you're not calling her a woman on purpose. Same with trans men.
- This attitude drives me fucking nuts as a millennial who had to fight the real fights for LGBTQ acceptance only for the younger generation to get their panties in a twist for inadvertently being called by the “wrong” (gender neutral) pronoun.
  Queers are on the verge of being hunted and exterminated in the US and y’all are pissy over being called a gender neutral pronoun by someone who doesn’t know you?
  For fucks sake this is why the heteros hate us. Younger queers need faux outrage to feel important. Now the real threats are back on the horizon. Thanks to young out of touch activists caring more about pronouns than our physical safety and well-being.
  
  Blaming your fellow queers for your oppression, that's so incredibly lame.
  I'm sure you are the perfect expression of queerness, and if every gay were like you, the bigots would stop hating us. /s
  Like what are you even proposing? That in order to be an effective queer activist, you need to be okay with misgendering? I feel your rage, but please direct it towards the fascists taking away our rights instead of bashing other queers. This kind of community in-fighting in what the bigots want, we need queer solidarity right now.
  
  No, that automatically calling people the gender neutral they/them until otherwise specified isn’t misgendering, and furthermore, this kind of faux outrage bullshit set the LGBTQ rights movement back decades.
  
  I do not think it's particularly nice to escalate and get mad at someone who is trying gently to educate you.
  This comment was reported, please remember our only rule on this website and try to be nice in the future.
  
  and likewise, as an older queer I’m doing my own educating here. I’m not going to sugarcoat the truth. Not now with the severity of the threat we collectively face while we’re having a fucking pissing match over pronouns and being offended by the innocent use of they/them purely to be outraged and feel important.
  
  To me it seems the original comment was simply someone providing an example of how binary trans folks can be upset at being referred to as they/them, an experience that many have also shared in here. Those who have chimed in have even stated it is mostly a pet peeve or an annoyance at best. I'm not sure I share your opinion that anyone was getting their "panties in a twist" so much as they were educating and sharing, which is completely reasonable on a website of this size in an area where folks who are not queer can read and comment.
  Your response makes plenty of sense given the severity of problems happening right now. I wonder, however, if your energy is not better spent elsewhere? Infighting does not serve anyone, something which I see even you preaching, yet you are even replying to my comment where I simply am reminding you to be nice (which I made as an admin only because you were reported) with strong language deriding your fellow queers and allies.
  
  The amount of assumptions you've made about me in this one comment is insane. I'm not from the US (and I've never had as many rights as you Americans, so don't police me on my lived experience with being oppressed as a queer person - you did not fight for any rights for me), and I'm not binary, so I have absolutely no problem with being called they/them. Queers in my country can't get married and the path to legal transition is long and dehumanizing (and for nonbinary people legally impossible) - I assure you I have enough of "real fights" to fight. That doesn't stop me from showing fellow trans people compassion and caring about their preferred pronouns.
  I was telling OP why someone who's LGBT might feel offended for being called gender neutral pronouns. You know, answering the question they asked. You, on the other hand, are being fucking weird and combative completely unprovoked. Get lost
- That's fair. Insightful.
  I have very nuanced bi-sexual tendencies and, to me, I don't personally have strong feelings towards my own pronouns but I have not personally realised any deep affiliation with "male" (my assigned gender) or "female" but I can well imagine that it is much more critical for a trans person who has realised an identity deeply enough to inspire them to transition.
  I mean: I don't even care about my own gender – call me whatever. At certain times, I have an attraction one way or the other. I'm married to a woman. I'm a father. These facts are all true but I honestly couldn't care what pronouns or gender or sex you write down, for me. This is probably why I started this topic: I'm trying to understand how this is for others who care far more than I do.
  I don't care but I do care to honour those who do care. I certainly care to honour those who care enough to choose to transition!
  But oh dear, though. That does not help me. I'd love to call your hypothetical trans woman a woman on purpose but that would require me to notice what she thinks "normal" people "normally" notice and, yeah: autistic. Maybe I'll stop defaulting to "they" / "them" – at least online – and default to confused-blob-cat or something for pronouns.
  
  No, call people you don’t know they/them until otherwise corrected and if they get pissy about it that’s their fault and not yours.
  There’s real serious problems out there, being upset over being accidentally “misgendered” by having no gender recognition at all is fucking ridiculous attention seeking me me me behavior.
  
  I cannot agree.
  I have very week, most frequently non-existent gender allegiance but I do know that there's a tonne of stuff that's odd about me and I often am offended or driven off by people who do things that simply don't work with my mind-set so I can well understand why being "misgendered" (sarcasm quotes: yours.) might just be a thing that drives someone else away.
  I'm not here because I'm accepting "fault" upon myself. I'm here because I want to be part of a tolerant future and I feel that this is important given the trajectory straight into hell that we are clearly currently set upon. I'm here because I'd at least like to ask "why" before I decide how I will behave in relation to others.
  I choose to live as if the world was one in which I'd choose to live and, in that world, people get to choose their identities however they please. I can't relate to why someone takes offence at "they"/"them" but, if they are offended, I can and will accept that and, conversely, I would wish that they might realise that I will surely make mistakes and get this wrong even if I do or did understand.
  This is the only fair deal: I try in good faith, they understand and offer the benefit of the doubt.
  I don't perceive any attention-seeking but that's besides the point. Even if they choose to seek attention, I don't begrudge them that: sometimes, people seek attention. Why should I object?
  
  Getting mad about being “misgendered” by a stranger calling you the gender neutral they/them for the first time until otherwise specified isn’t behavior that’s acting in good faith but rather narcissistic attention seeking faux outrage.

24 comments