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Seems like all comments here are "whatabout communism"
US being an authoritarian shithole is pretty undisputable reality. It could be preferable to debate the point than outright banning the possibly misinformed, but the assumption of military bot troll propagandist is not unreasonable.
You and I disagree, so it’s obvious you’re just a Kremlin bot account, here to sow discontent.
US being an authoritarian shit hole is pretty indisputable reality.
I beg to dispute. America still has free speech protections and some independent media. Yes, it's not perfect, billionaires have bought many media outlets and the court system is not fair towards poor people (due to the extreme amount of cases laid to the Publix defender's), but calling it authoritarian is still a hyperbole.
Not really sure how you came to that conclusion, we definitely have our problems, we aren't perfect, but we definitely aren't an authoritarian state either
We have an Israel first rulership. Every politician pledges allegiance to Israel. Tik Tok ban is because it is not zionist media, and the theory that young people are opposed to genocide is because they use tik tok, even through IDF gloating videos promoting their attrocities are on Twitter too, as are muslim disapprovals of genocide.
You have zero freedom/power to stop your theft of war support of Israel or against Russia, Canada, Greenland, Panama or Europe. Or stopping your nuclear incineration. Citizen's united means only rich people speech counts. Congressional bills in congress will outlaw criticism of zionism/Israel. That you are currently permitted to have sex with people you choose is against the Christofascist agenda that will be pandered to in next 2-4 years. But it is the predetermination of democratic outcomes for the most favourable to Israel, war, oil, and the extreme corruption of by the oligarchy for the oligarchy rule, that makes the US more authoritarian than governments that simply contains divisive distractions, while defending and advancing the country's needs. "Democracy and Freedom" is complete BS used to warmonger those accused of being less liberal than apartheid ethnostate Israel.
You+state approved media have the freedom to say US is not authoritarian, while I'm still allowed to explain reality. But neither of our opinions has any relevance whatsoever on our oppression.
While this is true I’m not sure what that has to do with authoritarianism. I think the reasons for incarceration speak far more to what is authoritarian and what isn’t. A thousand people incarcerated for murder isn’t authoritarian, a single person jailed for speech is. The US doesn’t have a perfect track record there but it’s far better than most other countries.
Incarceration rates are definitely not a plus in anti-authoritarian case for US. The highest in the world. Blacks or the poor are oppressed as a race/class to feed for profit prisons, and keep them "in line". If voting or speech changed anything it would be made illegal. MLK Jr was erased for influence. Nazi/supremacist speech is free and welcome by the state. Change is not.
A democratic free speech country can be the most evil by far. Speech promoting evil is just more loud than the plebs speech, and media explains to the plebs why oligarchy is bestest speech.
World Incarceration Rates If Every U.S. State Were A Country
The top 35 “countries” in incarceration rates are US states. By this metric, the US is by far the most authoritarian state in the world. And research shows that it is an oligarchy, not a democracy.
So you're anti-Semitic...got it, explains everything
Anti-zionism is not Antisemitism. Your conflation of the two is genuinely antisemitic.
Zionism is anti-Semitic at it's core, it other-izes Jewish people, and justifies the violent settler colonialim of Israel as in the defense of all Jewish people, which only serves to further fuel genuine Antisemitism at the expense of Jewish people globally.
Zionism is also an inherently fascist ideology. The ethnic cleansing of the native people of Palestine has always been fundamental since it's inception as a colonialist movement.
Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized by Zionism during its history.
Israel wouldn't be attacking Palestine if Palestine hadn't attacked first.
It would and was.
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a 'modern' way to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' of Europe. Western Nations supported this instead of instituting legal protections and refuge for Jewish people fleeing persecution.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be 'Transferred' to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
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10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book
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Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Oslo was used as a land grab while continuing to deny Palestinians human rights
(Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ).
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
Historian Works on the History
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Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years' War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
The existence of Hamas, and any armed resistance movement, is directly due to the decades of violence experienced daily under the permanent occupation, the Apartheid State, of Israel. It's impossible to understand their existence if you don't understand the lived experience and material conditions they are forced to live under. There is no such thing as a perfect victim when it comes to anti-Colonialist resistance, not for the Vietcong, the IRA, or the ANC either. Can you condemn the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in the same way as the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto?
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
I love that you posted this, but you're wasting your time feeding a known troll.
It is important to push back against Zionist trolls, not for the sake of the troll, but for the audience in the conversation.
It's honestly more for the many more who are just browsing. Although there have been a few that genuinely weren't aware and changed their mind. But yeah, there are also plenty who are simply trolls and completely dehumanize Palestinians if not all Arabs and Muslims. I've got that
trolltagged as a Zionist nowWhatever dude, Lemmy is way too far left for me to be arguing at this point. I don't approve of genocide on either side and I'm leaving it at that. I'm not gonna win or even remotely get anywhere so I'll stop wasting everyone's time. It's not productive which is the entire point of having an argument.
Well you're arguing off of misinformation. I provided sources for you to learn about the conflict if you are actually interested. I don't care to argue. You have many resources available and I have even more, such as documentaries. But the books I referenced have the best depth of knowledge about the conflict
Why is it that Arabs live peacefully in Israel yet a Jew steps foot in Palestine and gets killed. Also...just throwing this out there but you should really listen to some of the talks given by Mosab Hassan Yousef, they are incredibly eye opening.
Why is it you lie? most Arabs do not live peacefully in Israel. They are arrested and assaulted frequently. Also history show's it's the Israeli feet in Palestine that result in tens of thousands of dead Palestinian men, women, and children.
...right...so 20% of the Israeli population is Arab...and they get arrested and assaulted on the daily. That's a fairly substantial percentage for a minority population, seems unlikely for the percentage to both be that high and for them to be treated so poorly and oppressed so throughly especially when they could just defect to Palestine. Additionally Israel has an 18% Islamic population when broken down by religion. Look at Palestine meanwhile, 99% Islamic, 100% Arab...the numbers don't lie, one of them is definitely more tolerant of diversity than the other.
Holy shit, I didn't know the neo nazi talking points made the loop to zionism already. You gonna tell me about how halal meat is a conspiracy next?
You're literally a meme.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/despite-being-only-13-percent-of-the-population
That's completely delusional when we're talking about Israel, an Apartheid State, committing genocide on the native population it has occupied for generations. I suggest you read any of the books listed or read any of the sources linked, because you're either unaware of the reality of the situation or have completely dehumanized Palestinian people.
After the Nakba the Palestinians within now Israel that survived the ethnic cleansing were under the draconic Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations, which we're then practiced in the occupied territories instead after 1967. Even then, Arab Israelis continued to be second class citizens for many reasons including Education (2001 report)
This second class citizenship has only gotten worse. The article goes into a few more examples of how they are second class citizens, especially when it comes to censorship and a lack of civil rights. White very terrible, it's nothing compared to the lack of human rights in the West Bank or the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
Since Hamas’s October 7, 2023 attack, Israeli authorities have clamped down hard on Palestinian-Israeli expressions of dissent over the war in Gaza, while Benjamin Netanyahu’s government — widely regarded as the most rightwing in the country’s history — has advanced a raft of legislation that human rights groups say is discriminatory and infringes on Palestinians’ rights.
They argue it entrenches a system that has long treated them as second-class citizens and as suspects.
Ethnic Cleansing is fundamental to Zionism
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Settlements and Occupation
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets 'Transferred' to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
- The Transfer Committee, and the JNF Ethnic Cleansing, which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate before the Nakba
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
What was the capital of Israel in 1896?
2 can play that game, it really isn't productive. Where was Israel located in 900BCE?
Ok. What was the capital of Israel in 1947? Where was Israel located in 1947? Was there a country called "Israel" in 1947? Was there a country called "Palestine" in 1947?
There is no getting around the fact that Israel is a settler colonial state. It is stealing land exactly like the United States did to the indigenous people of North America.
But you don't care. You're firmly in the fascist camp, so there's no reasoning with you.
Where was Israel located in 150,00BCE?
Anyone trying to claim a connection to nearly 3,000 years back is utterly insane. You might as well go invade Africa as it was home at one point too, right?
I said it was counterproductive for a reason
US of course should have its ruler determined by Netanyahu. It's anti semitic to suggest otherwise.
The fuck are you actually on about????
Use some other words than "anti-semitism". That card is too old and has dog ears
I suppose you excuse whatever the Israeli state does in Palestine? What say you about the violation of geneva conventions?
Of course not, depends on what it is. You can't just write a blank check so to speak and tolerate ANY behavior, that's not remotely acceptable no matter the side, but alas no matter what I say Israel doing anything other than rolling over is them doing too much for you guys.
As a Jewish "Israeli" (Occupied Palestine) I am a proud antisemite, I wear that word as a badge of honor.
The USA has the highest incarcerated population in the world. Per capita it's about 2-4x the list of "authoritarian" states that usually get referenced.
Do you want to do a quick compare on the rates of extrajudicial killings as well?
I don't know what better quantitative measurement for "authoritarian" are than life and liberty. Do you have better ones?
While this is true I'm not sure what that has to do with authoritarianism. I think the reasons for incarceration speak far more to what is authoritarian and what isn't. A thousand people incarcerated for murder isn't authoritarian, a single person jailed for speech is. The US doesn't have a perfect track record there but it's far better than most other countries.
An ethnic minority criminalised and prosecuted several times more than the ethnic majority of the country is authoritarian though.
oh, like uyghurs?
Oh, do you have any statistics to bring up showing current, post-2021 incarceration rates by ethnicity in China?
only found this
and guess why I couldn't find an official and transparent statistic...
because china is very authoritarian and has a lot to hide
Yeah, Yunnan is an entirely different province than Xinjiang, the one where the reported abuses towards Uyghur are taking place.
and guess why I couldn't find an official and transparent statistic
Because we can't speak Chinese and China publishes such stuff in Chinese language maybe?
because china is very authoritarian
Chinese people feel differently about that, they consistently rate their country as a democracy much more than, say, US citizens do.
> Because we can't speak Chinese and China publishes such stuff in Chinese language maybe?
a lot of eu countries publish theirs in english too for the sake of transparancy, but ok
> Chinese people feel differently about that, they consistently rate their country as a democracy much more than, say, US citizens do.
funny, when was the last (fair) election in china? also the reason chinese people don't tell journalists how shitty their lives are is because they could get into a
concentration campreeducation camp for saying that and don't forget that all of that is for nothing since china got the highest millionair density in the world and thus can't be really communist imo and don't start me on holy xi trying to hide homelessnesshttps://www.newsweek.com/most-china-call-their-nation-democracy-most-us-say-america-isnt-1711176
Look, Chinese people reportedly care more about democracy and feel more in a democracy than USians, according to a study in Europe! Let's now proceed to ignore all of that because they're afraid of getting sent to labor camps, even when the prison population in the US is larger than in China while having 1/5th of the population!
For the record, I'm not particularly a fan of the Chinese model, it's just that the situation in the US is so bad that it's going to make almost anything look great in comparison lmao
No, its a hallmark of an authoritarian rule, not the proof of one. Believe it or not many places in history have been right bastards and have also been anti-authoritarian (think french revolution, the start of most communist revolutions, etc.) sometimes they are so anti-authoritarian they end up authoritarian.
Homicide rate is far less than other countries.
People are jailed and murdered in the US over "speech" all the time.
It seems like your "us is far better" is based purely on vibes... Unless you've got some numbers you'd like to share?
While we aren't as bad as some other countries we are still pretty authoritarian we have the largest prison population in the world and have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world.
That doesn't happen without being authoritarian.
Actually you are as bad as other countries, usually worse by any objective measure.
Define authoritarian
Why? You won't define communism.
ACAB really is universal.
Odd way to argue, but I can get you both:
Communism (no idea why you wanted this its kinda a non sequitur): a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.
Authoritarian: Favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.
Notice that jailing people can fall into the authoritarian set but does not in itself make a nation authoritarian. Take the US for example, its worse then being authoritarian (at least following the rules would keep you out of jail mostly) since its high incarceration rates have more to do with private prisons making money and providing political kickbacks then any attempt at enforcing authoritarian rule.
Are you Grammar Police?
Why? Do I have to be? Or are you a member of the comment police?
I was responding specifically to @GrammarPolice@lemmy.world because of a previous interaction we had.
Project 2025 has joined the chat
Project 2025 has not taken effect. While the day that asshole has won the election is sad day, please don't give up, we don't know how much he will implement yet.