Fake vegans
Fake vegans
Vegans being banned and comments being deleted from !vegan@lemmy.world for being fake vegans.
From my perspective, the comments were in no way insulting and just part of completely normal interaction. If this decision reflects the general opinion of the mod team, then from my perspective, the biggest vegan community on Lemmy wants to be an elitist cycle of hardcore vegans only, not allowing any slightly different opinion. Which would be very unfortunate.
PS: In contrast to the name of this community, I don't want to insult anyone here being a 'bastard'. I just want to post this somewhere on neutral ground. I would really appreciate an open discussion without bashing anyone.
PPS: Some instances or clients seem to compress the screenshots in a way they're unreadable. Find the full resolution here: https://imgur.com/a/8XdexTm
Linking the affected users and mods: @Cypher@lemmy.world @gaael@lemmy.world @gredo@lemmy.world @iiGxC@slrpnk.net @veganpizza69@lemmy.world @veganpizza69@lemmy.vg @jerkface@lemmy.ca @TheTechnician27@lemmy.world @Sunshine@lemmy.ca @Aqua@lemmy.vg
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Again, I'm not vegan nor particularly experienced in vegan arguments but there is clear suffering here:
- Imprisonment is often considered suffering and cows are not wild animals. They are rarely treated well.
- Fear is suffering. Based on the manners of the one killing the cow, it can "sense" intentions/that something is off. A designated slaughtering area for instance would cause a strong fear response.
- Restricting someone from achieving happiness and going against their wishes is suffering. We know that cows do not want to die. Killing them would violate their desires and cause suffering. This is the same (simplified) argument philosophers use to claim killing humans is bad.
- In organisms with social bonds, killing causes grieve (= suffering) for their social circle. Here's some more information on that, I recommend a read: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/animal-grief/
- Didn't say anything about imprisoning them. They can free range all they want in this example.
- The method employed specifically prevents fear. Assume a method that doesn't induce fear. They exist.
- This is a stretch of the definition. Discontinuation of happiness without knowledge before or after is not suffering.
- Prevent socializing completely after birth. Got it. Or, more reasonably, the grief of loss is inevitable and a small price to pay anyways to feed a family for the winter.
Edit: Also, I'm not really trying to justify eating animals. TBH I'm ironically more sympathetic to Vegans due to me being a hunter. Frankly I think meat eaters should have to participate in the harvesting of an animal you eat at least once before age of majority. That would at least confer appreciation for some of what is involved.
- "Free Range" is still limited by fences usually and >99% of cows will not live in the way many people understand free range because it would be prohibitevely expensive.
- The methods exist but are never used for the same reason as 1. Pigs in Germany for instance are suffocated to death with CO2 causing extreme - if temporary - suffering. Nitrogen is a bit more expensive which is why it isn't used.
- It depends. Discontinuation of happiness is one argument why killing is immoral, even if they are killed without direct suffering.
- Is killing a cow the only way for families to live through winter (without hunger/malnutrition etc.)? Then I'd say killing one is the lesser evil. If a family has other choices that do not involve killing, then I'd say the moral action would be taking them.
There are various more - and far better articulated - reasons why killing is bad by the way. Here are some: https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/67606/why-is-murder-wrong
Still, I believe it is hardly possible to reliably kill without involving suffering anywhere.
Though I would consider hunting to be the most ethical variant. It's not even a battle when factory farming exists.
I really don't need reasons why killing is bad :P
TBH all vegan's ethics can be countered with 'check your privilege'.
Imprisonment is often considered suffering and cows are not wild animals. They are rarely treated well.
they're provided, veterinary care, protection from the elements, protection from predators, drinkable water, space to graze, and opportunities to socialize. it's not imprisonment.
Those have nothing to do with imprisonment.
If I locked 10 people in a room and regularly gave them food and water they would still be imprisoned because they couldn't leave.
We know humans suffer from imprisonment and we accept since the mid 20th century that this applies to all humans. It's not a big stretch to assume imprisonment causes suffering for animals as well.
Besides, most cows on the planet have literally nothing of what you described. Except maybe drinkable water and protection from predators.
it's not imprisonment. it's husbandry
most cows on the planet have literally nothing of what you described.
that's not true.
Most cows on the planet are currently living in factory farms as cattle a few months away from being slaughtered.
veterinary care
Not in factory farms. Preventative antibiotics are not veterinary care.
protection from the elements
Limited protection. In summer extreme heat from being stuck inside without air conditioning.
space to graze
Not inside factory farms.
opportunities to socialize
Not inside factory farms.
Not inside factory farms.
most dairies, even large scale dairies, have pasture. beef cattle are raised 12 to 14 months grazing before going to a feedlot. so where are all these life-long confined cattle?
Limited protection. In summer extreme heat from being stuck inside without air conditioning.
so you see they do get protection from the elements
Not inside factory farms.
it seems like you think cattle spend their entire lives in a cafo. they don't.
Not in factory farms. Preventative antibiotics are not veterinary care.
they are, and that's not all the care they get
edit: I have been politely asked not to engage in the off topic discussion in this community.
What other care do they get?
Most cows on the planet are currently living in factory farms
care to cite this?
US 2022:
Haven't found any numbers for other countries.
a full 1/4 of all cattle never spend more than 45 days in a cafo, but even those that do don't necessarily have the conditions you are describing, nor do they live there their entire lives
edit: I have been politely asked not to engage in the off topic discussion in this community.
Where's your citation for this
what is the definition of factory farmed?
Good lord you argue in bad faith. One line replies of basically "no", "doubt it", "citation needed".
Like, come on man. How insufferable.
your accusation of bad faith is, itself, bad faith
No u
this isn't evidence, it's a rhetorical complaint about being asked for evidence.
edit: I have been politely asked not to engage in the off topic discussion in this community.
How isn't it evidence?
Is so.
saying it doesn't make it true
It does
We know that cows do not want to die.
no, we don't. we don't even know if they understand personal mortality
We know several intelligent animals have some sort of concept of death because they are capable of mourning. This doesn't prove they understand personal mortality but it proves that they understand the mortality of others to some extent which is a necessity for understanding your own.
My argument why cows do not want to die is a basic evolutionary one:
Individuals that do not want to die are more likely to reproduce than one's that want to die. It is therefore likely that cow populations today largely do not want to die.
Also, being neutral to the concept of death - or even not knowing about it - implies the absence of a wish to die. If cows do not even understand personal mortality they do not want to die.
. If cows do not even understand personal mortality they do not want to die.
Right. but moot. if that's the case then why bring it up at all? we should only be concerned with things that we can prove and base our conclusions on provable fact.
Individuals that do not want to die are more likely to reproduce than one's that want to die. It is therefore likely that cow populations today largely do not want to die.
I think it's probably accurate to say they don't want to die, cuz they don't know it's a thing that they could want.