Israel sees growing exodus as at least 82,000 leave country in 2024
Escalating violence and Israel's 'genocidal' campaign in Gaza spark a wave of departures, with the nation facing a brain drain and shrinking population growth
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I do not blame any of them for leaving. I probably would too. But I think this will also have a negative effect since it will mean fewer people who are against the genocide working against it from within. I'm not sure anything can be done about that though. It's too bad only those wealthy enough with the means to leave and a place to go who object to what's going on can do so.
As long as they life and work there they pay taxes that fund settlements, bombs, the salaries of their murderous soldiers...
Israel is by constitution an ethnonationalist state. They being there and having the citizenship also still gives it legitimacy.
I understand that, but they also vote. They also can protest inside the country. They also can organize others to be with them. There is a trade-off here. Let's not pretend there will not be any negative effects.
They have been doing these things for decades in Israel and things have only gotten worse. I think the more people that continue to leave and the more that can be discouraged from ever going there the better. One thing (among many) all these people can and should be encouraged to do is to renounce thier Israeli citizenship.
Discouraging people from going there I agree with, but I still say that if the people who are in a position to organize opposition leave, there will be a lot less opposition. I think that should be obvious and I'm not sure why you're acting like that's no big deal.
Again, I don't blame anyone for leaving, I would do so myself. But I'm not going to act like that is going to be bad for Israel's agenda in every way. It will help them in some ways. Like I said, there is a trade-off. The world is not black and white.
People will continue to organise opposition within Israel. I haven't said or implied that anything isn't a 'big deal' (perhaps you meant the other person who replied to you).
I'm not sure what you meant by this:
Again, I don't blame anyone for leaving, I would do so myself. But I'm not going to act like that is going to be bad for Israel's agenda in every way.
It was to both of you, because both of you seem to think this is 100% positive rather than a probable net positive. Which is a big difference.
And black-and-white thinking is not helpful.
Hold up, can we start over?
Just so you know I haven't downvoted any of your comments.
I don't think I have implied that anything isn't a 'big deal' or that this is '100% positive' or that I'm engaging in 'black-and-white thinking'.
I did point out that Israeli settlers have been doing the things you suggest they do such as organising in opposition for decades without much success. This includes protests, campaigns, conscription and military refusal, opposition political parties and so on.
I do think if more people emigrate from Israel it will better and I linked to a piece by someone who renounced their citizenship that goes into detail about why this is the case. Perhaps if you disagree with this sentiment you could check this article out and let me know which parts you have issue with.
I don't think I've taken anything you said out of context and I'd appreciate if you could pay me the same courtesy.
I wasn't taking what you said out of context, I was interpreting it, and I also explained what I have issue with- the fact that this will make it harder to organize resistance from within.
And from the comments you have made twice now, again- this is my interpretation, you seem to be saying that there is no point in trying to resist from within. Which is a ridiculously defeatist attitude. I'm not sure why else you're saying the resistance attempts have not had much success.
Resistance in East Germany didn't have much success either. Until it did. See: every other authoritarian regime brought down from within.
And from the comments you have made twice now, again- this is my interpretation, you seem to be saying that there is no point in trying to resist from within.
I didn't say this or infer it. I'm sorry but your interpretation is wrong. I agree with you, everyone who stays and wants to fight should do so. But I also don't think this exodus will necessarily have a negative impact on any such struggle. It may even open up new spaces for new activists and organisers. We'll see I guess.
Internal opposition to the genocide in Israel is scant. Too scant, unfortunately.
And making it even more scant won't help. Which is all I am saying.
I don't know why, but I am getting pushback here from multiple people who seem to be suggesting there's no point in opposing this from within and I just can't believe people can both oppose Israel and be that defeatist.
At this point I feel like opposition to Israel's activities might be more effectively directed at the foreign governments that are enabling it. Israel's going to oppress the Palestinians no matter what, but perhaps if they had a less reliable supply of bombs they'd take greater care in doing so and wouldn't be so bellicose with their neighbors.
I suppose they still vote from abroad, although elections will only happen in 2 years or so. But brain drain does affect the economy so it is in itself a "vote".
