On using pronouns as a proxy for gender identity

Forgive me if this was addressed, but I don't think it was. During a previous struggle session in a statement from the mod team something was said along the lines of "the he/hims aren't beating the allegations".

Personally I do not think this is acceptable, to me this is just using "he/hims" as a proxy for saying men. No one in IRL settings uses "he/hims" as a term to describe people who use him/him pronouns, no one is categorized into a grouping in general based on their pronouns as it is just a preferred pronoun not a characteristic like gender identity.

If there is misogyny going on, just say there is misogyny among users, their pronouns do not change the content of what they said, if someone with he/him pronouns and someone with she/her pronouns typed the exact same degrading thing about a woman, their pronouns would not factor into whether what they said was misogynistic or not.

I am bringing this up as it seems like people in the mod chat are still using "he/hims" to refer to people who have indicated they prefer he/him as their pronouns, you might think this is progressive because you are not directly making a gender identity assumption, but I believe this is in fact reactionary and you are just using pronouns as a proxy for the gender that is most commonly associated with the given pronoun i.e. men in the case of saying "he/hims".

I think this is at least counterproductive and at most harmful, if knowing someone's gender identity is relevant or useful, it should just be asked for.

The point of having pronouns is to accommodate and to treat people with respect and dignity about what they prefer to be called. Using pronouns as a proxy for gender identity undermines this as, treating someone with dignity would involve asking them directly what their gender identity is, not making judgments or assumptions based off of their preferred pronouns.

The only thing that having he/him pronouns indicates is that the person prefers to be referred to with the pronouns he and him. They are just personal pronouns, they are not equivalent to an ethnicity, a gender identity, a gender expression, etc.

If someone with he/him pronouns seems like they are misogynistic, that may have something to do with their gender identity, but it has nothing to do with their pronouns. It is not fair nor accurate to make assumptions of gender identity from pronouns and I think this should be avoided.

This is not to undermine any concerns about misogyny, but misogyny can and should be fought against regardless of what pronouns are involved in any instance of it.

Thanks for reading this, please know all I want is for pronouns and gender identity not to be conflated and to create a safe and respectful space for all users. And I think a good way to work towards this would be to stop using "he/hims", "she/hers", "they/thems", etc. as a way to refer to people who specify they would like to be referred to as those pronouns.

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I would go further to say that it's just not really okay to single out a demographic in a glib way like this, even if they did say "men" instead of "he/himself".
I'm not saying it's not "politically correct". I don't care about that. I'm saying it's not healthy.
I can't count how many times I've seen the conversation play out - someone glibly insults men, or white people, or cis people, and someone (rightfully) responds to say - hey, there's trans men, queer white people, cis WoC - the response is always "okay, I'm only talking about cishet white men". This is almost as bad - it erases people's identities, because badness is assumed to be an inherent trait of the identity that they are excluded from.
There's a clear line between light-hearted fun-poking (making fun of "White people food") or actual reasoned criticism and the kind of instinctual other-ing of "he/him pronouns? Privilege detected!". Mods should be removing this sort of content and issuing warnings, not participating in it.
- Singling out demographics is generally a way for marginalized people to discuss their experiences of marginalization. Like, how would the proletariat be able to discuss their exploitation by the bourgeois if they were not able to name the bourgeois? Likewise, how would POC be able to thoroughly discuss their oppression by white people if we can not say “white people” while doing it? It literally does not matter that some white people are queer (I’ve met some very racist queer white people lol), that does not automatically absolve racist behavior. Intersectional analysis of marginalization has been a thing in leftist circles for decades now.
  
  They addressed what you're talking about
  light-hearted fun-poking (making fun of "White people food") or actual reasoned criticism and the kind of instinctual other-ing of "he/him pronouns? Privilege detected!".
  No one is taking issue with effortposts
  
  I don’t think discussion of marginalization only occurs in effortposts. If i want to say “god white people are so annoying” that’s still a discussion of marginalization.
- There was a good post a few days maybe weeks back about how saying all men are inherently evil is reactionary. I wish I saved that because I'd link it.
  
  That viewpoint and those like it are tolerated if not celebrated by subsets of the userbase. @Self_Hating_Moid@hexbear.net was a user who constantly posted incredibly reactionary shit, calling for actual genocide and the like, but it was cool because it was about white people. And I need to stress it was unironic.
  I also think some users struggle with reading, because I will say things like "some users say these things unironically and that's bad" and then I will have to have 10 discussions about how joking about it is fine.
  
  I also think some users struggle with reading
  The majority of users are USAmerican and studies have shown that the average USAmerican reads at the same level as a 12-14 year old.
  
  Yeah and it really shows at times here. What gets me though is all the users just absolutely failing basic critical thinking. It's like they "became" leftists to avoid ever having to examine their own ideology. The amount of hostility I've received when I've even just kindly asked questions about someone's worldview is wild. And this isn't a federation thing, it's been going on since before that.
  
  I assume it was this one:
  https://hexbear.net/post/4143501?scrollToComments=false
- This was the "apology" from that mod btw its since been deleted, but someone archived it first lol. Good thing too, since they haven't changed their opinion, they just can't stand by it.
  Also anecdotally my experience got much more pleasant when my gender identity changed. I was treated with much less hostility here after I stopped being a "he/him". There's so many users here who are massive shitheads, but they think they're doing good because they're "leftists". In those users mind, if you disagree with them, then you're reactionary. No reason to ever do self crit.

119 comments